DOES A JEWISH TEMPLE/SANCTUARY HAVE TO BE BUILT BEFORE JESUS RETURNS?

ItIsFinished! said:

You seem to be confused.

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Daniel 9:27 and the lie...


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1. No. He can come whenever He is ready
2. Yes
3. I don't know but am willing to learn.

I said other, because:
The wording of number 3 seems to assume; that to say 'I don't know' means we are 'unlearned'.
From my limited time on earth, it seems to hold true that: 'the more you know, the more you are aware of how little we all know'. I suggest 'we don't know' is more 'scriptural' than dogmatically 'predicting' the 'future' biblical events like armchair prophets, rather than reasonable disciples.

It is 'because' I have researched the question of the Temple 'extensively', I would say: I don't know.

Judging from the answers here though; I wouldn't want anyone 'learning' from a person so rabid as to believe are absolutely correct 'about the future' (most all of the bibles future events are described with highly symbolic, visionary, allegorical and indeed poetic language). To assume one can 'interpret' such language, and to predict their meaning with such assurance, should be a red flag to anyone listening.

There are enough good arguments here (and many not mentioned) for a number of scenarios and viewpoints to be considered. Yet, I suppose someone here knows: who built, or builds, the Temple of Ezekiels 'vision'?

LittleLambofJesus said:

DOES A JEWISH TEMPLE/SANCTUARY HAVE TO BE BUILT BEFORE JESUS RETURNS?

Any thoughts on this?

I voted "I don't know" for now.


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The Abomination that Maketh Desolate standing in the Holy Place where it should NOT stand.
Jesus also stated - "when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8)

• The New Testament Temple Construct is not a physical Old Testament Temple Construct.
• The Abomination that Maketh Desolate standing in the Holy Place must be within the New Testament Temple Construct.
• The Coming of Christ is a time throughout the New Covenant Age that typifies a time like Noah, where faith is seldom to be found amongst those who claim to be Christ's.
• The lowest point in faith is tied to a time within the New Covenant Age that signals a falling away from the faith once given to the Apostolic Saints.
• The Lowest point in faith cannot be within the 1st Century context as Christianity has been evidenced to flourish far and wide throughout the world among nations who knew not Christ.
• The Abomination that Maketh Desolate must be tied to a form of worship that removes the Daily Sacrifice.
• The Daily Sacrifice according to Romans 12:1 is tied to true worship, where a Christian offers their body daily as a living sacrifice, Holy and pleasing to God.
• The Abomination that Maketh Desolate that Christ is talking about is one that replaces the true faith in the Spirit with an outward faith in the flesh, that is governed by a mind of flesh (Romans 8:6-7).
• Paul describes in 2 Thessalonians 2:12 the Temple Desolators who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness, as the many sons of perdition, like the Judas Iscariot's of the world.
• The Man of Sin in 2 Thessalonians 2 is rendered as Anthropos/Peoples (Christians) of Sin who fell away from the faith and served a lie and these become the candidates for the statement "have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness".
• Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him as Paul termed it applies to the New Testament Temple Desolators who originally had been imparted the knowledge of the truth, but darkness came into their hearts and they ended up serving a lie.
  
• Regardless of what the lie is, the form of worship is apparently changed by no longer conforming to Romans 12:1. How this is to unfold has not yet been revealed.
• The many Sons of Perdition will oppose and will exalt themselves over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so that they set themselves up in God’s New Testament Holy Spirit Temple, proclaiming themselves to be OF God.
  
• The Falling away has a leader who initiates the falling away from the faith and this person seems to be a religious head when Paul identifies him as - Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The essential criteria for the falling away require it to be when the Gentiles come to full numbers of accountability, where the Lord goes out to fight against those who have infiltrated his City Chuch Jerusalem as depicted in Zechariah 14:1-4.

So he Lord's coming must be to separate the Goats from amongst the Wheat, when the fullness of the New Covenant Time, times and half a time comes where now Christ removes those who offend him by the breath of his mouth and by the brilliance of his coming when he comes to fight with the enemy within his Church on the Great Day of Battle.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Just answer a simple question.
Is Jesus not talking about Herod's 1st century Temple or not........

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Yes as a 'Type'
No as an 'Anti-Type'

Explanation will be provided below...

LittleLambofJesus said:

Then we can proceed to the AoD of Daniel....

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

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We can proceed to delineate the Temple 'Type' from the Temple 'Anti-Type' so that we do not confuse the two by assuming that the prophecy solely is to the one Temple (Type) and not the other (Anti-Type).

LittleLambofJesus said:

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
Mark 13:
1 And He going forth out of the Temple,
one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”
Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple,
that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>

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Let us consider Matthew 24 -

versus 1 and 2 are referring to the 'Type' Temple and how its end will be in 70AD.

However, the disciples wanted Jesus to elaborate, but they brought in complications by asking him open-ended questions like so -

1. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and
2. what will be the sign of your coming and
3. of the end of the age?”

The only verses in Matthew 24 that really served to answer Disciples question 1. is verses 1 and 2.

After the Wars literal and rumours of wars, these are only precursors to natural geological events that unfold like birth pains of a pregnant woman. The "watch that no one deceives you", is a message to all and not just the disciples as we will find out. The end that typifies the 3rd question does not come after the resulting destruction of wars. Natural geological events that unfold are happening as a consequence of man's destructive wars that could only be accounted for by the weapons of mass destruction that nations in the plural sense hold in their possessions today. Notice the Roman siege of Jerusalem was a coalition of nations on the behest of Rome and these were for the purpose of destroying the City and the Desolate 'Type' temple. The nations spoken of here are not a coalition of nations under Rome but are nations at war with each other, that is World War and on a global scale. History from my knowledge does not present a global world war occurring within the 1st century amongst nations, as Rome was still very much in control and continued three to four centuries later. So verses 4 to 8 are not about the 'Type' temple or the 'Type' Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70AD.

Verses 9 to 14 has Christ addressing the Church after the facts of those global destructive events of verses 4 to 8. The End of Age is also referring to the 'Anti-Type' New Testament Age of the believers since the concerned of this prophecy are the recipients of the Gospel. The End of the New Testament Age comes (Time, times and half a time) after the Gentiles come to full number of accountability as the Gospel finds its ways into the hearts of all who are to be written in the Book of Life before the Book is opened at Christ's coming, when he will judge the living and the dead. This presents a case for the 'Anti-Type' Temple within the New Covenant Age ending when the Gentiles have come to full and at the time where the faith diminishes, never to be recovered from. Historical evidence attests to the facts that the 1st Century was not the End of the Age spoken of here as after the Cross and after Pentecost, the New Worship in the Spirit presented only one viable covenant between man and God. So the End spoken of here are to those who are already recipients of the New Covenant and not those under the desolate Old Covenant. The derision of faith is coming about as a result of a falling away from the Apostolic faith within the Body of Christ, leading to the many false christs (leaders) and the false prophets (ministers) within Christ's very own Church existing in the New Covenant Age spoken of. Standing firm in faith before the End of the New Covenant Age seems to be the only plausible rendering of the verses in question as they are centred around the Church establishment.

The crescendo before the coming of Christ in answering question 2. is the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place. The Temple after Jesus said destroy this Temple and I will raise it up on the third day Post Resurrection (Sign of Jonah) and Post Pentecost is the New Covenant Age Holy Spirit Temple Construct within the New Form of Worship in the Spirit. The Abomination of Desolation can only be accounted for as an Abomination within what is deemed by God to be Holy Post Pentecost and it has to be spiritual and it has to be tied to the abolition of the worship in the Spirit (Daily Sacrifice) to a worship which is fleshly that is governed by a mind of flesh (Romans 8:6-7). You cannot have an Abomination in a desolate temple in Jerusalem within the 1st Century by the many Sons of Perdition if the Temple is not originally authorised by God the Holy Spirit. Holy Place cannot be a brick and mortar temple that Jesus answered in two lines in verses 1 and 2.

“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

The implication of verse 22 above presents us with a party distinct from the disciples, whereas the disciples had been originally answered to in verses 1 and 2. The Elect seem to be living in a time, where life itself is almost but extinguished by events unparalleled throughout human history, to even the Great Flood of Noah.

Verses below are meant to be taken in an idiomatic manner, not specifically related to Judea and not specifically related to the Jewish Sabbath that the disciples were brought up in within the Old Covenant religious system -

let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

Idiom
a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words (e.g. over the moon, see the light).

Christ is not concerned about physical fleeing to the mountains where in previous verse 13 he states "but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved", meaning to stand firm in faith and onto the death. Neither is Christ concerned about saving one's flesh or about clothing apparel or pregnant women who should have abstained from giving literal birth or concerned about keeping the Old Covenant Sabbath as it will severely restrain many from saving one's flesh because they can't wheel a cart along or to ride a horse to escape or to walk a long distance because it was not permitted under the Jewish custom. Do you really believe that the Jews during wartime and threat of death will continue their customs as if nothing is happening around them?

So what Preterists have done is confused the 'Type' and the 'Anti-Type' Temples by assuming that all the prophecy is concerning the 'Type' unholy temple and proof-texting verses that are meant to be taken idiomatically.

In conclusion, the disciples question 1. relating to the 'Type' temple was answered in two verses, verses 1 and 2. Questions 2 and 3 were added complications that the disciples did not comprehend because the details of the prophecy was not for their eyes, but for a future generation that would face unparalleled great apostasy after the destruction of the ecosystem that sustains human life itself, by a world war that utilises arsenal that brings about the geological destruction of earth.

Revelation 11:18-19
The Gentile nations were angry (World War on a Global Scale), and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."
Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

The crescendo leading to the final event which is the 2nd coming of Christ is after the Gentile nations with their arsenal of weapons of mass destruction destroy the earth and after this the geological events of Matthew 24 (Days of Noah), then leading into the false leaders (christs) and false ministers (prophets) within the New Covenant Temple construct, who establish faith based on an Abomination whilst removing the Daily that has served Christianity for the better part of 2000 years. The revealing of the Ark of the Covenant is the finale and this could not happen until Christ obtains the full complement of Gentile numbers throughout the centuries who are to be accounted for in the Book of Life before it is opened at his Coming. The Last enemy to be destroyed is death itself, Hell with it and Satan also. This final judgement of the living and the dead cannot be within the 1st century as we who testify Christ today, had not yet been accounted for within the 1st Century and so it remains that Gentiles must come to full and all the events explained above must be lead-ins to the crescendo as a prelude to the final event that is Christ's brilliant coming and the unveiling of the Ark of the Covenant.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Never mine.....no post.......

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Give credit where it is due before you throw out the baby with the bath water.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Where is the abomination of desolation of Daniel, Matt and Mark shown in Revelation

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In Revelation 13:14-15, the image of the beast.

LittleLambofJesus said:

I am well aware of those verses........

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us,
when? shall these be,
and what? the sign<4592>
of Thy parousia,
and together-finish<4931> of the age.

Mark 13:4
Tell us!
when? shall these be
and what? the sign<4592>
whenever may be being about<3195> these.

Luke 21
7 Yet they inquire<1905> of Him, saying, “Teacher!
when? then shall these be
And what? the sign<4592>
whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?

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Exegesis study only permits us to balance between the 'Type' and 'Anti-Type' Temples. Jesus was permitting their questions on the basis that the other exegetical studies pertaining to post #65 still holds and cannot be prooftext by rendering Matthew 24 otherwise.

Preterists believe that Jesus was addressing only the destruction of the desolate Jewish 'Type' temple whilst neglecting the 'Anti-Type' Temple of the Holy Spirit. This comes as a surprise since for 40 years all those words used in Matthew 24 was allegedly for the purpose of the 'Type' temple.

W2L said:

Isnt the Church the temple of God? (Not the building itself but the people?) And are we as individuals also that temple? If so then why does God need a temple made with human hands?

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And yet, Paul's description in 2 Thessalonians 2, is Jerusalem's Physical Temple.

The very Temple that Acts 3 depicts spirit filled Believing Israelites worshipping in Jerusalem.

Nevertheless, Rom. 5:6-8, in each...our stead.

David Cabrera said:

How can a Jewish temple be called a sanctuary when they rejected God?

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When it was up before, Believing Israelites would worship in it, along with Unbelieving ones (or pew warmers).

You see this, for example, in Acts 3 and 4, etc.

Nevertheless, Romans 5:6-8, in each - our stead.

Danoh said:

And yet, Paul's description in 2 Thessalonians 2, is Jerusalem's Physical Temple.

The very Temple that Acts 3 depicts spirit filled Believing Israelites worshipping in Jerusalem.

Nevertheless, Rom. 5:6-8, in each...our stead.

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Gods temple isnt built with human hands.

DavidPT said:

What would be the purpose for building one? If God still desired a Jewish temple in order to fulfill certain events before the 2nd coming, why did He allow the 2nd one to get destroyed? When I was Pretrib for a number of years I used to believe a third Jewish temple will get built prior to the 2nd coming, but I have since abandoned both ideas, Pretrib and a rebuilt Jewish temple in the future. I haven't voted yet so I guess I will once I submit this post. It should be obvious what I will vote for.

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Your having been unable to solve for your question does not mean

W2L said:

Gods temple isnt built with human hands.

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And yet it was, and He made His presence known in it.

You'd do well to put away the traditions of men and thoroughly study out - in Scripture itself - what that phrase had actually been referring to.

Nevertheless, Romans 5:6-8, in each - our stead.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Correct.
Did you notice that the word used for Sanctuary, #3485, is used 46 times:

G3485 (YLT)
G3485 matches the Greek ναός (naos), occurs 46 times in 40 verses

The same amount of years the Jews said it took them to construct it. Pretty amazing,

John 2:20
The Jews, therefore, said, 'Forty and six years was this Sanctuary<3485> building, and wilt thou in three days raise it up?'

The exact form of #3485 used in that verse occurs in only 10 verses....4 of those in Revelation [7 times]:

G3485 ναός ναὸς — 10x

Rev 11:19 -
And opened was the Sanctuary of God in the heaven, and there was seen the ark of His covenant in His Sanctuary,
and there did come lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Rev 15:
5 - And after these things I saw, and behold!
opened was the Sanctuary of the tabernacle of the testimony in the heaven;
8 - and filled was the Sanctuary with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power,
and no one was able to enter into the Sanctuary till the seven plagues of the seven messengers may be finished.
Rev 21:22 -
And a Sanctuary I did not see in it,
for the Lord God, the Almighty, is its Sanctuary, and the Lamb,



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Thanks brother.