Trump: Prince May Be Guilty, but US Stands by Saudis

disciple Clint

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Trump on Khashoggi's Death: Maybe Blame the World

Good news everyone, we finally know who we should blame.
USA Today, which like other US media outlets could not verify the report, has a key line from it: "The crown prince gave an instruction to silence Jamal Khashoggi as soon as possible and this instruction was captured during [a] CIA wiretapping." Wow now there is some evidence nothing quite like a key line from an UNVERIFIED report
 
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Nithavela

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USA Today, which like other US media outlets could not verify the report, has a key line from it: "The crown prince gave an instruction to silence Jamal Khashoggi as soon as possible and this instruction was captured during [a] CIA wiretapping." Wow now there is some evidence nothing quite like a key line from an UNVERIFIED report
We'll see if this report can be verified. Until then, anything else you wish to add, perhaps pertaining to trumps comments that "the world" is at fault?
 
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disciple Clint

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We'll see if this report can be verified. Until then, anything else you wish to add, perhaps pertaining to trumps comments that "the world" is at fault?
I am glad that we are attempting to be fair and wait for the facts instead of just going with the innuendo like the media. It would be illogical to argue Trumps logic
 
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TLK Valentine

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TLK Valentine

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So the death of 86,000 children is nothing but a distraction to you?

No, but clearly you've found a use for it. Or would you prefer to start a new thread on it?
 
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TLK Valentine

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I am glad that we are attempting to be fair and wait for the facts instead of just going with the innuendo like the media. It would be illogical to argue Trumps logic

"Logic" that the whole world must be to blame?
 
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LoAmmi

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So the death of 86,000 children is nothing but a distraction to you?
dr-seuss-adolf-the-wolf.jpg
 
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USincognito

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A Saudi national is killed by agents of the Saudi government in a Saudi consulate on foreign soil - you want the United States to instigate an international conflict with Saudi Arabia over this? The very fact that Trump's critics do is evidence that he was the peace candidate in 2016.

Contrast this comment with the wailing and sack cloth over John Chau.
 
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DaisyDay

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There is a complex history with why we ended up allied with the Saudis. I do not really know it. Indeed, I wither away on this topic very often because it seems that whatever led us up to this point was largely a mistake.
It's not very complex - they got oil, we buy their oil. We got weapons, they buy our weapons. We both oppose Iranian-Shi'ite hegemony.

Yet, you do not play the hand you want to have; you play the hand that you were dealt.

The bottom line is that this is an assassination/murder/killing/event, whatever you want to call it, that happened on foreign soil to a non-citizen who is a wealthy elite (or sub-elite) that had close connections and relationships with other Saudi elites. It's likely that he had a patron more powerful than himself that did this to him...
Where do you get this? Khashoggi was not an elite, he was a working journalist on a salary, an ex-pat. He did not have a "patron", he was employed by the Washington Post, a world class newspaper. He worked for a living - unlike the Saudi elites.

What can we really do, now?
Voice disapproval of murder? Impose a sanction? Slap the Prince's hand? Or, do as Donald is doing - shrug and make excuses.

Do we abandon an alliance with one of our only friends in the region -- oh, yes, they are bad guys, but what about the realpolitik behind all this? What about real life considerations?
Well, gosh, could there be a middle ground? Is it all or nothing?

At best, we can just contemplate backing up slowly from the Saudis. Anything else would be rash and unjustifiable.
No, publicly rebuking the man who ordered the murder is neither rash nor unjustifiable.
 
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DaisyDay

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We have been discussing point and counter point about what should be done about the Khashoggi murder. All of our attention is focused on this one event. Today I read an article in my newspaper that said 86,000 children under the age of 5 had died of starvation in Yemen. Did I say or do anything about that as it was happening? Did I demand that our President or our nation or anyone else do anything to stop it? Did we see much in the way of national coverage about it? Someone made a pointed comment about one of my posts asking if one life was important. Another posted asking how many people would have to die for it to be important to me. We let our media focus our attention on one person while thousands die. Every life is important should we not be doing all we can to save as many as possible?

Yemen: 85,000 children under 5 dead may have died from starvation - CNN
As to whether there has been "much" national coverage, I guess that depends where you get your news. NPR, Reuters, the New York Times and the Washington Post have been giving fairly regular coverage - but you have to give them your attention if you're going to see/hear.

You're right that the Yemeni war is a humanitarian crisis. You are also correct that the Saudis are perpetuating this with the weapons we sell them. Perhaps it would not be a disaster if we withheld some weapons sales either on account of the Khashoggi murder or the Yemeni slaughter.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Where do you get this? Khashoggi was not an elite, he was a working journalist on a salary, an ex-pat.

Lots of elites work on salaries, especially in the government and Big Media...

He did not have a "patron", he was employed by the Washington Post, a world class newspaper.

...a major organ of the politco-media complex, which is why there are so many people in high places chimping out about his death. The deep state lost one of their own, and they're used to the White House coming to their side in matters like this. However, the American people elected a President who promised to use the office on behalf of the American people, and not international elites.

Voice disapproval of murder?

The President has already done that. Apparently it's not enough, but you gotta be careful about crossing the line of interfering in other countries' internal affairs.

Impose a sanction?

Not in US interests, and that's what actually matters to this administration - as opposed one led by Hillary or ¡Jeb!" Besides, sanctions are a move towards war.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Lots of elites work on salaries, especially in the government and Big Media...



...a major organ of the politco-media complex, which is why there are so many people in high places chimping out about his death. The deep state lost one of their own, and they're used to the White House coming to their side in matters like this. However, the American people elected a President who promised to use the office on behalf of the American people, and not international elites.

Sounds like you're saying he deserved what he got.

Not in US interests, and that's what actually matters to this administration - as opposed one led by Hillary or ¡Jeb!" Besides, sanctions are a move towards war.

And Donald should be afraid of such a move against a state sponsor of terrorism because...?
 
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High Fidelity

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Besides, sanctions are a move towards war.

I didn't expect a country with a military like the US' to let cowardice stand in the way of right and wrong.

The U.S. aren't the only ones at fault for providing terrorists with weapons, but at least other countries are waking up and smelling the, well, you can finish the sentence, I trust.
 
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TLK Valentine

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RDKirk

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There is a complex history with why we ended up allied with the Saudis. I do not really know it. Indeed, I wither away on this topic very often because it seems that whatever led us up to this point was largely a mistake.

It's not complex. Great Britain originally set up the Saud family as the controllers of what was suddenly "Saudi" Arabia--yeah, the Brits did that.

That allowed US oil companies to be deeply embedded into the economics of the Saud family, which could basically treat the country like a family estate.

The binding tie between the two countries, however, was the deal signed with the Saudis by President Richard Nixon. By 1972, the US economy was actually in free-fall because the global economic supremacy that the US had held since WWII had been broken when Europe and Japan finally caught up in the late 60s after being devastated by the war.

Nixon had completely severed the US dollar from the gold standard and let it float against European currencies and the yen. However, to hedge his bet, Nixon signed a special agreement with the Saudis: They agreed to sell oil only for US dollars while the US agreed to provide them with special military protection. That was called the "petrodollar" agreement (Google: "nixon petrodollars").

That meant any nation wanting to purchase Saudi oil had to first buy US dollars, which propped up the value of US currency.

That is the real reason the US rushed into the Persian Gulf war--because it looked like Saddam Hussein intended to roll through Kuwait into Saudi Arabia.

It's the reason now why the US is the Saudi's proxy in the 1400-year-long Sunni-Shiite war. Saudi Arabia is the lead nation of the Sunnis (and the US is their proxy); Iran is the lead nation of the Shiites (and the Russians are their proxy).

Yet, you do not play the hand you want to have; you play the hand that you were dealt.

"You gotta know when to hold e'm
"Know when to fold 'em
"Know when to walk away
"Know when to run...."

With regard to oil dependence, the US is certainly now in a position to walk away from that poker table. A number of economists say we also don't need the Saudis propping up the value of US oil, although there probably isn't a president with the guts to test that theory. Not even Trump.

The bottom line is that this is an assassination/murder/killing/event, whatever you want to call it, that happened on foreign soil to a non-citizen who is a wealthy elite (or sub-elite) that had close connections and relationships with other Saudi elites. It's likely that he had a patron more powerful than himself that did this to him...

What can we really do, now?

Do we abandon an alliance with one of our only friends in the region -- oh, yes, they are bad guys, but what about the realpolitik behind all this? What about real life considerations?

At best, we can just contemplate backing up slowly from the Saudis. Anything else would be rash and unjustifiable.

"Slowly?" The Saudis were behind 9/11. Fifteen of those terrorists were Saudi citizens. All 19 were Sunnis. That was 17 years ago--why isn't that slow enough for your?

Any soldier who has been to Saudi Arabia will tell you that the US is selling its soul to Satan by remaining "friends" with Saudi Arabia. We are not simply ignoring their evil--they cause us to do evil as well.

As I've said before, the Saudis are behind all--all--of the exported terrorism in the West. Not the Iranians, the Saudis.

All of the radical Islamic activity in the west--the Saudis are paying for it. All the radical Islamic doctrine in US and European prisons, in masjids in all the major cities--that all comes from Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia fueled ISIS and continues to fuel the forces that will, at some point again, coalescence into some new kind of Sunni threat.

The only time the Saudis crack down on their own Frankenstein monster is when it directly threatens them in Saudi Arabia. Otherwise, they keep fueling it to kill and destroy "infidels."
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Sounds like you're saying he deserved what he got.

I'm merely explaining why some people are quite upset Khashoggi's death... and others are "meh". Of course killing him was wrong, but as Trump said, the world is a vicious place. We're all entitled to our own opinions about Khashoggi, but to expect a major revision of foreign policy from the President just because something bad happened to somebody you like, who isn't even a citizen, that smacks of entitlement.

And Donald should be afraid of such a move against a state sponsor of terrorism because...?

Remember how it turned out it Iraq? This could be much worse. There's much not to like about Saudi Arabia, but please, let's base our policy on a cool-headed, rational evaluation to the situation, not an emotional reaction to this incident.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I'm merely explaining why some people are quite upset Khashoggi's death... and others are "meh". Of course killing him was wrong, but as Trump said, the world is a vicious place. We're all entitled to our own opinions about Khashoggi, but to expect a major revision of foreign policy from the President just because something bad happened to somebody you like, who isn't even a citizen, that smacks of entitlement.

Two points:

1. A public condemnation is hardly a major revision of foreign policy...

2. "...who isn't even a citizen..." you make it sound like that would have made a difference.


Remember how it turned out it Iraq? This could be much worse. There's much not to like about Saudi Arabia, but please, let's base our policy on a cool-headed, rational evaluation to the situation, not an emotional reaction to this incident.

Remember how it turned out in Syria? Donald was cheered for that.
 
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Novus Odo Seclorum

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If it hasn't been said already, Petro-Dollar.

Cnn and the rest of the mockingbird media are the enemy of the people. They want Trump to tick off the Saudis enough to drop the dollar, crash the economy, make everyone hate Trump so they can sweep 2020.

Never take your enemy's advice.
 
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comana

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If it hasn't been said already, Petro-Dollar.

Cnn and the rest of the mockingbird media are the enemy of the people. They want Trump to tick off the Saudis enough to drop the dollar, crash the economy, make everyone hate Trump so they can sweep 2020.

Never take your enemy's advice.
Trump is doing a pretty good job of making everybody hate him all on his own. No "They" necessary, whoever "They" are.
 
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