Men, or all men - The Revelation

HTacianas said:

We haven't had a really rousing argument...err...discussion in a while, so in the interest of stirring up strife....debate, I mean, what do you make of these:

Rev 9:6 - And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

I've heard some say that during this time no one will die. Since "men shall seek death, and shall not find it", all men shall seek death and shall not find it. But I suppose that if only two men wished for death it would be sufficient.

So is it all men, two men, or some number in between?

Compare to Luke 21:

Luk 21:26 - Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:

Will all men's hearts fail them for fear, or would it take only two, or some other number?

Click to expand...

Prophesy usually sees things inside out and upside down, except in retrospect when it all clears up.

Interesting OP.

Revelation 9: NASB
The Fifth Trumpet—the Bottomless Pit

1Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. 2He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. 3Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man. 6And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them.

7The appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8They had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle.10They have tails like scorpions, and stings; and in their tails is their power to hurt men for five months. 11They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

12The first woe is past; behold, two woes are still coming after these things.

It would seem from the context that verse 6 applies to this Trumpet judgment. As we see throughout Revelation people do die. But this judgment specifically calls for the tormented to not have death as an escape.

HTacianas said:

We haven't had a really rousing argument...err...discussion in a while, so in the interest of stirring up strife....debate, I mean, what do you make of these:

Rev 9:6 - And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

I've heard some say that during this time no one will die. Since "men shall seek death, and shall not find it", all men shall seek death and shall not find it. But I suppose that if only two men wished for death it would be sufficient.

So is it all men, two men, or some number in between?

Compare to Luke 21:

Luk 21:26 - Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:

Will all men's hearts fail them for fear, or would it take only two, or some other number?

Click to expand...

I would think it would include men, women and children.

Have you and/or others read Josephus' holocaust account of the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 70ad?
The famine was beyond any horror one could imagine.

REVELATION 9:6 'MEN WILL BE SEEKING THE DEATH, DEATH IS FLEEING FROM THEM"

Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
and they shall be desiring/yearning to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.

This verse has the Roman denari and appears to denote the famine that occurred during the 70ad Roman siege of Jerusalem

Revelation 6
6 And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of wheat a denari and three choinex of barleys a denari,

Luke 21:23 uses both "destress" and "wrath" concerning the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:19
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those, the days!
Mark 13:17
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Luk 23:28
29 “For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!’

The fulfillment in 70ad:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.
In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;.............................

At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast,
and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes.

.......................

men has always been a stand in for mankind, and it's rarely used in an absolute sense in the Bible.

In this case it is some men and women whose number is known to God alone.

HTacianas said:

...I mean, what do you make of these:

Rev 9:6 - And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Click to expand...

There is such a thing as dying to sin (Romans 6:1-3). This is the death men seek during times of tribulation or if you prefer, temptation.

As for the locusts, they are symbolic of the demons [1] that destroy the fruits of the Spirit; they eat our efforts, the leaves as it were, to practice God’s commandments through negligence and when they fail, they attack the mature fruit through vainglory and by passing judgement on our neighbor. They are always hostile to us like horses prepared for battle. They tempt us through love for riches and eminence (gold crowns), and through people (faces of men) in the form of lust for the pleasures of the body (hair of women) and love of glory that agitates our souls towards hatred and murder of our neighbor (lion’s teeth) [2]. Our hardness of heart [3] is their iron breastplate and the high opinion of ourselves the wings [4] that allow them to war against us by means of the thoughts (sound of chariots) or tares [5] that they sow in our heart. The beginning of every sin is a thought, hence why the symbols of temptations are located at the head (crown, hair, teeth) but the actual harm comes from carrying it out in action, this is the end or tail. For this reason the demons are depicted as having stings in their tails like scorpions. As long as we are subject to our bodily senses, a non-literal period of five months as it were, the demons will have the power to hurt [6] us. But shod with the sandals [7] of the gospel of peace (Ephesians 6:15), the deadening of our members (senses) upon the earth (body) (Colossians 3:5) we will be able to trample upon the scorpions and over all the power of the enemy (Luke 10:19).

_____________
1. shape is not the only way to interpret a symbol, but also through its other properties and operations.
2. these three categories of temptations can be associated with the three temptations of Christ.
3. or lack of right judgement as an antitype of the breastplate of righteousness (Ephesians 6:14)
4. or because they are said to inhabit high places (Ephesians 6:12) though imo these ‘places’ are our prideful hearts and minds.
5. wheat is the good teaching of the Lord; tares the evil teaching of the Devil. Those who are shaped by each are also called wheat and tares respectively.
6. There’s bodily harm and there’s a spiritual harm. There’s bodily death and there’s spiritual death. I think the latter understanding should have priority in this case.
7. sandals are made of dead skin, an apt symbol for putting to death the will of the flesh.