Debate-For MJ's Only The rapture - what happens, and when?

gadar perets

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No, you are tying the soul/spirit to our same time constraints. At death, that doesn’t apply. The soul/spirit goes immediately into eternity.
The "spirit" that goes to YHWH upon death (Eccl. 12:7) is our "ruach" (breath of life), not the "nephesh" (soul/person/entire being).
 
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visionary

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That is an error believed by Seventh Day Adventists. It demonstrates a lack of understanding that the eternal realm is not tied to our timeline. One could have died thousands of years ago and another die a thousand years in the future and both immediately arrive in eternity simultaneously with no “soul sleep.”
If this thread is about the state of the dead, life after death, etc. .. then a new thread needs to be created. I will definately be on that thread showing scripture upon scripture on that subject.
 
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Laureate

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That is what he thinks as well which is why he teaches that many members of the bride are currently in heaven.

"For the last 2000 years all true believers who have died have gone up into Heaven. Within that Body of believers in Heaven are those who are the members of Yeshua’s mystery Bride, waiting for the fullness of Yeshua’s Bridal party to be completed, so that the promised Marriage of the Lamb and His Bride can take place."​


Almost the entire article is false except for the fact that he seems to be teaching there is no rapture of "Yeshua's Bride". Here is one statement I can agree with;

"There is no Pre or Mid or Post Trib Rapture of Yeshua’s remnant Bride, as so many are teaching. Almost all the different theories presented today about the Rapture of Yeshua’s Bride are using many Scriptures about the Shofar call of God to help explain their theories about Rapture. But the real Truth is that these Shofar Scriptures are all about the Lord Yeshua’s return; and not about the Rapture of Yeshua’s Bride!"
It is not clear whether or not he believes there is no rapture at all or just no rapture of the Bride. However, the fact that he proves his belief by teaching Yeshua is YHWH leads me to want to cast the article in the trash.

If a large number of people take the two wings of a great eagle and fly away to a great mountain burning with fire as the children of Israel did, and the that Mountain (as all mountains) extends up into שמים Heaven, where the birds fly, and tree limbs sway.

It was from the Fire that proceeded out of the Mountain that they heard the Rejected One speak from heaven (see Deuteronomy 4).

We reside in שמים Heaven aka, the Earth's Atmosphere.

The first Advent was the Judgement Day of Malachi, according to (Î)yésʰûʷəʰ, John the Baptist the Greatest among those who have Risen, and are Born of a Woman, who was born on Shavout - Pentecost, he was the Father/Spirit of Truth manifest in the Flesh.

My point being, Judgment Day occurs after the dead have resurrected, and as (Î)yésʰûʷəʰ finely pointed out, 'The Hour shall come, As It Is Now when the dead shall rise from their graves...'

We are the tombs of those who shall re enter the Kingdom.
 
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Laureate

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So what is Yeshua?

(Î)yésʰûʷəʰ is the Son who came not in his own name, but in the name of (Î)yaʰ[Sʰ]ûʷaʰ, and John [phonetically] ציון (tsʰaʷn, Chawn) came in the name of the Son, i.e., the Capital of the Kingdom Zion.

The Son is not the Father incarnate, he is the Word incarnate, he is Mt. Zion incarnate, he is Seth, the Only (actually) begotten Son of Adam whose bodily members survived the flood of Noah's day, we are the Many Members of his body, and his body is the Door for one to re enter the Kingdom.

Subsequently he is a father of all, to include his own resurrected father Adam, for he is the Son of Adam, he is not the Son f the dead.
 
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gadar perets

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If a large number of people take the two wings of a great eagle and fly away to a great mountain burning with fire as the children of Israel did, and the that Mountain (as all mountains) extends up into שמים Heaven, where the birds fly, and tree limbs sway.
I seriously doubt the author meant the Bride was in the first heaven. He says they "died" and went "up into heaven", not that they became believers who were living in the first heaven even before they died.

It was from the Fire that proceeded out of the Mountain that they heard the Rejected One speak from heaven (see Deuteronomy 4).
Who is the "Rejected One" and why is he such?

We reside in שמים Heaven aka, the Earth's Atmosphere.
I agree, but then when we die, we do not go up to the first heaven or any other heaven. We await our resurrection unto eternal life first.

The first Advent was the Judgement Day of Malachi, according to (Î)yésʰûʷəʰ, John the Baptist the Greatest among those who have Risen, and are Born of a Woman, who was born on Shavout - Pentecost, he was the Father/Spirit of Truth manifest in the Flesh.
What makes you believe John was born on Shavuot?

My point being, Judgment Day occurs after the dead have resurrected, and as (Î)yésʰûʷəʰ finely pointed out, 'The Hour shall come, As It Is Now when the dead shall rise from their graves...'

We are the tombs of those who shall re enter the Kingdom.
Are you thinking John 5:25 refers to figuratively dead people being spiritually resurrected unto life? I can see that, but I doubt that is what the author of the OP article meant. Do you believe John 5:28-29 refers to the same thing or to a literal resurrection of literally dead people?
 
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gadar perets

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(Î)yésʰûʷəʰ is the Son who came not in his own name, but in the name of (Î)yaʰ[Sʰ]ûʷaʰ, and John [phonetically] ציון (tsʰaʷn, Chawn) came in the name of the Son, i.e., the Capital of the Kingdom Zion.

The Son is not the Father incarnate, he is the Word incarnate, he is Mt. Zion incarnate, he is Seth, the Only (actually) begotten Son of Adam whose bodily members survived the flood of Noah's day, we are the Many Members of his body, and his body is the Door for one to re enter the Kingdom.

Subsequently he is a father of all, to include his own resurrected father Adam, for he is the Son of Adam, he is not the Son f the dead.
Are you saying that Yeshua was literally Adam's son Seth? Also, this is the second time you used the phrase "re enter the Kingdom." When were they in the Kingdom the first time and gone out of it in order to "re enter" it?
 
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I am not permitted to discuss my non-trinitarian views here. PM me if you want an answer.

Well, we aren't going to get any further with your responses, then.

I don't think I'll post any debate material in the future.
 
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Laureate

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I seriously doubt the author meant the Bride was in the first heaven. He says they "died" and went "up into heaven", not that they became believers who were living in the first heaven even before they died.

What does Doubt have to do with Faith?
Ought not one die first, before they are born again? When Paul said he dies daily, is he not referring to becoming anew person, and leaving behind the old person?

Likewise when Israel was brought up out of Egypt, it was then that Israel (as a nation) was born, and called the firstborn by Elôhâyîm. On that day the Israeli slave died, and was born Sovereign.

When touching upon biblical terms, I tend to look at them in the context which heaven uses them, and give little thought (if any) to the dim light in which an unlearned person may perceive the terms and their meanings.

Neither in the Exodus account, nor in the rapture discribed is there any mention of what part of Heaven they were caught up in to, so why go there?

IWho is the "Rejected One" and why is he such?

When the children of Israel heard the Voice proceed from the Rock and Consuming Fire they were terrified, and said, et us not hear the Voice...., it was then that they rejected the Covenant, and by default instead of a Nation of Priests, the Levitcal priesthood was born.

Elôhâyîm told Môsʰé, they are not rejecting you, they are rejecting me.


II agree, but then when we die, we do not go up to the first heaven or any other heaven. We await our resurrection unto eternal life first.


Yeah! Umm I like to establish my faith on two or three, because I Love both the Father and Son, and those who Love them, do as they say.


IWhat makes you believe John was born on Shavuot?

We read in Malachi, Commemorate the Torah of Môsʰé....Behold, I will sent you the Prophet Aliyəʰûʷ, and so it is Commemorated every year in Israel on Shavout, thereby fulfilling that verse, and (Î)yésʰûʷəʰ said that John was not only the Aliyəʰûʷ of Malachi, but that he was Malachi, the Angel of Yah, and as such, was Sent from the womb.

IAre you thinking John 5:25 refers to figuratively dead people being spiritually resurrected unto life? I can see that, but I doubt that is what the author of the OP article meant. Do you believe John 5:28-29 refers to the same thing or to a literal resurrection of literally dead people?

Both! As scripture indicates 'Your dead shall raise my dead body", first those who are the first fruits shall resurrect (literally reborn), but it will be just As It Was Then according to (Î)yésʰûʷəʰ, for he says, the Hour shall Come, As It Is Now, when the Dead shall hear the Voice of the Son and shall rise from their graves.

If John was Aliyəʰûʷ, then that was the Great and Dreadful day, and as John said unto the Pharisee, Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?

If that was Judgement day, then that entire generation was raised from the dead, for the dead rise first, then comes the Judgement.

Of course the, Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do...., is what bought us a ticket to round two.
 
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Laureate

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Are you saying that Yeshua was literally Adam's son Seth? Also, this is the second time you used the phrase "re enter the Kingdom." When were they in the Kingdom the first time and gone out of it in order to "re enter" it?

(Î)yésʰûʷəʰ was born of a Woman, and Ruach H'kodesh, Neither of which is a Man, yet he declared to be the Son of Adam more than any other title.

There is Only one of Adam's Sons that did not entirely die in the flood of Noah's Day, and that is Seth, consequently that makes us all the Many Members of his literal body.

And that also makes his body the Only Door through which one may be literally reborn into the Kingdom that sits smack in the middle of Heaven (called Earth).

Those who are faithful unto death among the Congregation of Smyrna receive a Crown of Life, they appear as the resurrected individuals in the Congregation of Philadelphia who have received their Crown, and those who retain their Crown with their faith, they will become pillars in the Temple, our Bodies represent the Temple, yet Pillars are not like furnishings which come and go, they are permanent structures, and so it is promised that these individuals will not only be spared from the impending trial, they will no longer have to enter or leave the Body/Temple again, for the Second death will not harm/touch them.

Back to Seth,

Adam was created In the Image and After the Likeness o Elôhâyîm, and Seth was begotten In the Likeness, and After the Image of Adam.

Carefully examine these two reports, and notice the Mirror Opposite inversion of their formula.

Webster's Third DAE definition of Reflection third entry reads, 'image: likeness (end of entry), this indicates that Adam was a reflection of Eloheyim, and that Seth was a reflection of Adam, subsequently making Seth the Express Image of Eloheyim.

"Whom does Enos (Men) say that I the Son of Adam am." There is only one man between Adam and Enos, and that is Seth.

Nevertheless, the scriptures indicate that 1 we are the Many Members of the body of Seth, therefore 2 his body is the Door for the reborn 3 Seth is the Express image of Eloheyim and 4 Seth is the Only Living Son of Adam.

Yet scriptures also instruct us to establish every matter by two or three.
 
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gadar perets

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Lareate, why did you add the letter "I" before the last four times you quoted me in post #53?

What does Doubt have to do with Faith?
Ought not one die first, before they are born again? When Paul said he dies daily, is he not referring to becoming anew person, and leaving behind the old person?

Likewise when Israel was brought up out of Egypt, it was then that Israel (as a nation) was born, and called the firstborn by Elôhâyîm. On that day the Israeli slave died, and was born Sovereign.

When touching upon biblical terms, I tend to look at them in the context which heaven uses them, and give little thought (if any) to the dim light in which an unlearned person may perceive the terms and their meanings.

Neither in the Exodus account, nor in the rapture discribed is there any mention of what part of Heaven they were caught up in to, so why go there?
Did you write this in order to defend the author of the OP article's view that believers go to heaven when they die? Do you personally know the author's view? Yes, we figuratively die before we are figuratively born again, but we do not go "up to heaven" since we are already living in that first heaven.

Also, do you consider me "an unlearned person" who perceives biblical terms in a dim light?

When the children of Israel heard the Voice proceed from the Rock and Consuming Fire they were terrified, and said, et us not hear the Voice...., it was then that they rejected the Covenant, and by default instead of a Nation of Priests, the Levitcal priesthood was born.

Elôhâyîm told Môsʰé, they are not rejecting you, they are rejecting me.
OK. I just wasn't sure if you meant they rejected the Son or the Father.

We read in Malachi, Commemorate the Torah of Môsʰé....Behold, I will sent you the Prophet Aliyəʰûʷ, and so it is Commemorated every year in Israel on Shavout, thereby fulfilling that verse, and (Î)yésʰûʷəʰ said that John was not only the Aliyəʰûʷ of Malachi, but that he was Malachi, the Angel of Yah, and as such, was Sent from the womb.
I disagree. Yes, Torah is commemorated in Israel on Shavuot, but not John's birth. Nor was John Malachi or the Angel of Yah.

Both! As scripture indicates 'Your dead shall raise my dead body"
What verse says this?

If John was Aliyəʰûʷ, then that was the Great and Dreadful day, and as John said unto the Pharisee, Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?

If that was Judgement day, then that entire generation was raised from the dead, for the dead rise first, then comes the Judgement.
I agree that John warned them about the wrath to come, but I disagree that "that entire generation" that would receive that wrath "was raised from the dead". They were, rather, brought down to the dead.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

A literal death precedes the judgment. If the dead must rise first in order to face their ultimate judgment, then they had to die before they were raised from the dead. What happened to the Jews in 70CE was indeed a preliminary judgment upon them which was NOT preceded by them being raised from the dead. That only applies to their final judgment.
 
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gadar perets

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(Î)yésʰûʷəʰ was born of a Woman, and Ruach H'kodesh, Neither of which is a Man, yet he declared to be the Son of Adam more than any other title.
The term "Son of Adam" is never used of Yeshua. The Greek word "anthropos" translated "man" in the phrase "Son of man" refers to human beings whether they are male or female.

There is Only one of Adam's Sons that did not entirely die in the flood of Noah's Day, and that is Seth, consequently that makes us all the Many Members of his literal body.
Genesis 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.

Those who are faithful unto death among the Congregation of Smyrna receive a Crown of Life, they appear as the resurrected individuals in the Congregation of Philadelphia who have received their Crown, and those who retain their Crown with their faith, they will become pillars in the Temple, our Bodies represent the Temple, yet Pillars are not like furnishings which come and go, they are permanent structures, and so it is promised that these individuals will not only be spared from the impending trial, they will no longer have to enter or leave the Body/Temple again, for the Second death will not harm/touch them.
You are mixing two different congregations. Smyrna is not Philadelphia.

Back to Seth,

Adam was created In the Image and After the Likeness o Elôhâyîm, and Seth was begotten In the Likeness, and After the Image of Adam.

Carefully examine these two reports, and notice the Mirror Opposite inversion of their formula.

Webster's Third DAE definition of Reflection third entry reads, 'image: likeness (end of entry), this indicates that Adam was a reflection of Eloheyim, and that Seth was a reflection of Adam, subsequently making Seth the Express Image of Eloheyim.
The phrase "the express image" only applies to Yeshua. Seth was born after the fall. Did Adam continue to bear the image and likeness of Elohim or was it seriously marred by sin?

"Whom does Enos (Men) say that I the Son of Adam am." There is only one man between Adam and Enos, and that is Seth.
The only place in the NT where the word "Adam" is used of Yeshua is 1 Corinthians 15:45 where the Greek word "Ἀδάμ" is used. Even in the Septuagint, when Ezekiel uses "son of man", the Greek uses "anthropos", not "Ἀδάμ".

Nevertheless, the scriptures indicate that 1 we are the Many Members of the body of Seth, therefore 2 his body is the Door for the reborn 3 Seth is the Express image of Eloheyim and 4 Seth is the Only Living Son of Adam.

Yet scriptures also instruct us to establish every matter by two or three.
We are "many members" of the body of Messiah, not the body of Seth. You can't just replace "Messiah" or "Yeshua" with "Seth" whenever you feel like it. That is what JWs do with "Michael" and what Christians do with "YHWH".

Also, Seth is no longer living.
 
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gadar perets

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John/Elijah was to turn the hearts of the children towards their (resurrected) forefathers....
No, he was to turn the heart of the fathers to their living children and the hearts of the children to their living fathers through faith in Messiah Yeshua. A faith that would have turned their hard hearts to love one another.

John's forefathers are dead and still in the grave awaiting their resurrection as with David (Acts 2:29).
 
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Laureate

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The term "Son of Adam" is never used of Yeshua. The Greek word "anthropos" translated "man" in the phrase "Son of man" refers to human beings whether they are male or female.


Genesis 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.


You are mixing two different congregations. Smyrna is not Philadelphia.


The phrase "the express image" only applies to Yeshua. Seth was born after the fall. Did Adam continue to bear the image and likeness of Elohim or was it seriously marred by sin?


The only place in the NT where the word "Adam" is used of Yeshua is 1 Corinthians 15:45 where the Greek word "Ἀδάμ" is used. Even in the Septuagint, when Ezekiel uses "son of man", the Greek uses "anthropos", not "Ἀδάμ".


We are "many members" of the body of Messiah, not the body of Seth. You can't just replace "Messiah" or "Yeshua" with "Seth" whenever you feel like it. That is what JWs do with "Michael" and what Christians do with "YHWH".

Also, Seth is no longer living.
Amazing Comprehension skills! Very tempting I must admit, but no sense in trying any further, you clearly do not understand my speech.
 
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gadar perets

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Amazing Comprehension skills! Very tempting I must admit, but no sense in trying any further, you clearly do not understand my speech.
WADR, if I misunderstood you, it is not because I lack comprehension skills, but because you do not speak clearly. I should not have to spend hours racking my brain trying to figure out what you are saying when you have the ability to make yourself clear.
 
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