My favorite argument for the existence of God

Kylie · Nov 22, 2018

paul becke said:
'Deborah D said: ↑
who has made Himself known through His incredible creation.
If you say so. Personally, I have no good reason to believe this.'

Are you serious ? What else but an omniscient, omnipotent god could have created and, up to this moment, continue to sustain, a universe of such size and complexity ? You have a very riotous imagination. You should find this article interesting :

Experience, Rational Debate & Science Depend On The Supernatural

So big complex things need to be created?

Aman777 · Nov 22, 2018

Kylie said:
Wow, I've seen Muslims say the same thing.

Sure, but be more specific and tell us where the Koran tells us about the multiverse.

Kylie said:
And are you really REALLY saying that the Bible predicts things that haven't been predicted? How do you know if they haven't been predicted? I mean, why don't you use the Bible to make a prediction about something we have no scientific knowledge of?

It's not just a prediction but a scientific Fact that we live in a multiverse which is composed of at least 3 Universes. The first firmament/Heaven was made the 2nd Day Genesis 1:8 and other Heavens were made on the 3rd Day. Genesis 2:4 When today's most advanced scientists discover this Fact, they will confirm information which ONLY God could have known 3k years ago. It's proof of God.

DogmaHunter · Nov 23, 2018

Deborah D said:
It is evidence if that "old book" is written by the Creator of the universe who has made Himself known through His incredible creation.

No. No matter the source, it's still just claims and would still require supporting evidence.
Having said that: the book was factually written by humans.

Enjoy the sunshine tomorrow because the earth is just the right amount of distance from the sun

1. "just the right distance" is inaccurate. The goldilock zone is a zone. The earth can move several % and it would still be fine for life.

2. Eventhough we have only been looking for a couple of years and that in our cosmic backyard (which is a ridiculously tiny portion of the galaxy - let alone the universe), we have already found hundreds of rocky planets that orbit their star in the goldilock zone. So rocky planets at "just the right distance" from their star, really isn't remarkable or rare.

3. having said all that.... what did you expect? That we would find ourselves on a planet which orbitted in a zone where it could NOT sustain life? Now THAT would have been remarkable. THAT would have been a miracle requiring a special explanation.

Enjoy looking at the fall colors because he made your eyes to function so well that man copied His design in making the camera

Our eyes only see a very small portion of the actual spectrum.

Enjoy breathing because He made this earth's atmosphere to have just the right mixture of gasses.

Same comment as above. "just the right mixture" is not accurate. There's quite some variation possible there. In fact, there IS quite some variation there. The composition of the air you breath in Australia, is different from the air in Brittain, which is different from the air in Tibet.

Furthermore, this is a teleological fallacy. We evolved to be able to breath in this atmosphere. If the composition of the air would have been different, then the creatures that evolved would have been able to breath that composition of air.

This is also why YOU would get altitude sickness in Tibet, because the level of oxygen there is lower then what your body is build for. Tibetans actually have unique genetic sequences wich influences their red blood cell production, which allows them to live at that altitude without becoming sick. They evolved to live at that altitude. You didn't.

And on top of all these wonders

As I have shown: there's nothing "wonder" about this. All the things you mentioned were either fallacious or just plain wrong.

HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH that He came to earth and died so that you can have life!

And if you don't believe that, you'll burn in hell for eternity!
Some love.

Having said that, this is just your religious belief, with no grounding in reality at all.

There's your evidence

A religious claim and a bunch of false and fallacious statements?
That's your "evidence"?

Owkay then.

, and there's so much more than there is room to list all of them!

Are the ones you mentioned your "best" pieces of evidence?
Because then I'm not interested in the rest ........

I pray that someday you will know the overwhelmingly deep love of your Creator.

Theists have been saying that for as long as I can remember.
It seems to be ineffective. Perhaps you are not praying hard enough?

DogmaHunter · Nov 23, 2018

marineimaging said:
There are three things to be so that we can be here. Time, space, matter. Take away any one of those three and the other two collapse into themselves and we cannot exist; and in that they do exist we can go backward to a place in time where matter did not exist, where time did not exist, and space did not exist. In that they do exist it must be that they did not exist, until they did exist. Only the unified and unequaled energy can have brought them into existence and that was God. No matter how you describe God, He is infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, all powerful. Nothing else explains how it is that all of the elements we need to exist is here and in perfect balance.

Bare religious claims explain nothing. They just claim.

If this is not true, explain the beginning because even before the "Big Bang" there had to be time, space, matter.... AND energy.

Blatant argument from ignorance.

DogmaHunter · Nov 23, 2018

paul becke said:
Through the discovery of the DNA code (not binary, but quaternary), it was confirmed that information precedes matter, ergo design, etc. Gates states that it is a kind of software, immeasurably more complex and sophisticated than any software Microsoft has been able to come up with.

Bill Gates also understands that DNA evolved.
Curiously (well, not really...), creationists never bother to quote that part.

Well, while existing at the 'nano' level, enlarged to the size of a small village, the simple, one-cell, E-Coli bug would be a vast, functioning factory of incredible complexity and sophistication - with all the functions of a 'state of the art' factory and more : inventory, 'just-in-time' procurement and storage, quality control, refuse removal, the lot ...

It's also an organism that is the result of 3.8 billion years of evolution.

DogmaHunter · Nov 23, 2018

HitchSlap said:
Darn, I thought I had you on ignore.

3...2...1...

I put him on ignore a couple of weeks ago.
The overall quality of the forum rose exponentially after that.

DogmaHunter · Nov 23, 2018

Kylie said:
Wow, I've seen Muslims say the same thing.

So I guess that means you believe the Koran now?

And are you really REALLY saying that the Bible predicts things that haven't been predicted? How do you know if they haven't been predicted? I mean, why don't you use the Bible to make a prediction about something we have no scientific knowledge of? Say dark matter. Use the Bible to give me scientific information about dark matter. We are likely to make scientific breakthroughs regarding dark matter in the next few years, so we won't have too long (in all likelihood) to see if you are right. So go on, use the Bible to give me information about dark matter that science does not currently know. Let's see how good you are.

Because all you are doing is making POST-dictions, not PREdictions. It's easy enough to take a metaphorical account steeped in metaphor and find a way to interpret it that agrees with science that has been discovered, and then claim the metaphorical account was never metaphorical and was instead a literal description that was meant to be interpreted in the way that matches up with what science has already discovered. Any fool can do that. But if you are REALLY correct, you should be able to use the Bible to make specific predictions about something science has no knowledge of. So, let's see you do it. Doesn't even have to be about dark matter. It can be about anything you want.

Idd. They did exactly the same thing with Big Bang theory and the expansion of the universe.

For millenia, no theist interpreted those verses in that way.
Then, after scientific consensus was reached on an expanding universe, there came the creationist saying that it "they knew it all along" because "da bible says god stretched out the heavens".

Yet, before we knew about an expanding universe, a static universe was assumed. Theists weren't disagreeing.

It's pretty pathetic.

Speedwell · Nov 23, 2018

Aman777 said:
Sure, but be more specific and tell us where the Koran tells us about the multiverse.

It doesn't need to; Muslims have the same "Old Testament" as we do.

marineimaging · Nov 23, 2018

DogmaHunter said:
Bare religious claims explain nothing. They just claim.

Blatant argument from ignorance.

Go, in peace and take your hardened heart with you. I am going to love you as I do others and as I have capacity, but we also have permission to go our way and wipe the dust of your doubt and disbelief off our feet. There are many who desire to know the truth and do not want a lonely existence. We can invest our time better with them.

Justatruthseeker · Nov 23, 2018

DogmaHunter said:
Idd. They did exactly the same thing with Big Bang theory and the expansion of the universe.

For millenia, no theist interpreted those verses in that way.
Then, after scientific consensus was reached on an expanding universe, there came the creationist saying that it "they knew it all along" because "da bible says god stretched out the heavens".

Yet, before we knew about an expanding universe, a static universe was assumed. Theists weren't disagreeing.

It's pretty pathetic.

And because creationists ignored that stretching, they came up with the wrong answers of age. Just as atheists are now ignoring it and coming up with the incorrect answers of age....

One refuses to adjust for length contraction and realize length of days and years would change as one goes backwards as orbital distances changed (and mass - hence dinosaur sized land creatures can no longer exist), the other refuses to adjust for time dilation and realize radiometric decay rates would speed up as one goes backwards (hence they use today's slow rates to calculate past rates which were faster)....

Neither, because they ignore that stretching, get the correct answers..... I wholly agree with your conclusion that ignoring it on both sides is totally wrong to do, nor does simply giving lip service to it suffice. It is the consequences of it that matter......

marineimaging · Nov 23, 2018

Justatruthseeker said:
And because creationists ignored that stretching, they came up with the wrong answers of age. Just as atheists are now ignoring it and coming up with the incorrect answers of age....

One refuses to adjust for length contraction and realize length of days and years would change as one goes backwards as orbital distances changed (and mass - hence dinosaur sized land creatures can no longer exist), the other refuses to adjust for time dilation and realize radiometric decay rates would speed up as one goes backwards (hence they use today's slow rates to calculate past rates which were faster)....

Neither, because they ignore that stretching, get the correct answers.....

Just a thought of mine and no others. But in the beginning God created a world that needed nothing to keep going. But in knowing that Adam would fail and would turn the world into a hard place it needed a "natural" series of events to keep going. So, in creation God made the dinosaurs and made them large to occupy the space and propagate the circle of life, ever decreasing in size as numbers increased until man no longer needed them. Time as scientists describe it is based on a unit of numbers of decay that has been corrected numerous times. Sometimes accepted and sometimes rejected. But time, none the less and as you said, contraction related to speed of decay..., making us much closer to the creation time than the evolutionary time required to get here. One PhD I recall believed in old world, new creation had the evidence in hand of what you are talking about and how that theory could co-exist with our Biblical understanding. Just something to ponder.

Justatruthseeker · Nov 23, 2018

marineimaging said:
Just a thought of mine and no others. But in the beginning God created a world that needed nothing to keep going. But in knowing that Adam would fail and would turn the world into a hard place it needed a "natural" series of events to keep going. So, in creation God made the dinosaurs and made them large to occupy the space and propagate the circle of life, ever decreasing in size as numbers increased until man no longer needed them. Time as scientists describe it is based on a unit of numbers of decay that has been corrected numerous times. Sometimes accepted and sometimes rejected. But time, none the less and as you said, contraction related to speed of decay..., making us much closer to the creation time than the evolutionary time required to get here. One PhD I recall believed in old world, new creation had the evidence in hand of what you are talking about and how that theory could co-exist with our Biblical understanding. Just something to ponder.

Time dilation is indeed an experimental fact.

So as velocity increases decay rates slow. But if you use today's slower rate to calculate into the past without taking into account the decay rates increase as you go backwards, you would come to the incorrect conclusion that the earth was billions of years old.

By products of this is that mass also increases due to an increase in energy, hence we no longer have dinosaur sized animals because they can not exist in today's higher mass.

But rulers also increase. So as we go backwards the orbit size of the planets increase, making days longer. So likewise we can not say it was 6,000 years ago, because our years (orbits around the sun) are different then they once were. Also earth increases in size (volume) leading to longer days. Also to less gravity since it was spread out over a larger distance (F = Gm1m2/r^2), an inverse square law, which means animals were bigger and get smaller as the distance lessens and mass increases due to energy added.....

Likewise the genome was then perfect, but the increased decay rate started damaging the genome through mutation and led to shorter and shorter lifespans. But days also got shorter and years shorter as orbital size and planet sizes decreased. So they probably actually lived a very long time compared to our shorter years and days now.

It all easily fits into a Biblical framework if one uses the science we understand it to be and neither side ignores it.... How old is the earth? I couldn't tell you and no one can, because we can't determine our true velocity through space.

Some will argue we can calculate our velocity from the CMB, but that is so easily shown to be pseudoscience I won't bother to discuss it at this time, unless you are curious....

DogmaHunter · Nov 23, 2018

marineimaging said:
Go, in peace and take your hardened heart with you.

Projection.

I'm not the one with the closed minded and dogmatic adherence to a faith based belief system that is contradicted by the evidence of reality, and who's trying to "defend" that belief with bare assertions and fallacious logic.

I am going to love you as I do others and as I have capacity

Great. You're still wrong though.

There are many who desire to know the truth and do not want a lonely existence

The truth is found in the evidence of reality, not in bronze aged books and superstition.
And what the truth of reality has to do with being lonely, is something I don't quite get.

We can invest our time better with them.

Who are you talking about?

DogmaHunter · Nov 23, 2018

marineimaging said:
Just a thought of mine and no others. But in the beginning God created a world that needed nothing to keep going. But in knowing that Adam would fail and would turn the world into a hard place it needed a "natural" series of events to keep going. So, in creation God made the dinosaurs and made them large to occupy the space and propagate the circle of life, ever decreasing in size as numbers increased until man no longer needed them. Time as scientists describe it is based on a unit of numbers of decay that has been corrected numerous times. Sometimes accepted and sometimes rejected. But time, none the less and as you said, contraction related to speed of decay..., making us much closer to the creation time than the evolutionary time required to get here. One PhD I recall believed in old world, new creation had the evidence in hand of what you are talking about and how that theory could co-exist with our Biblical understanding. Just something to ponder.

Pure fantasy, contrary to the actual evidence.

Justatruthseeker · Nov 23, 2018

DogmaHunter said:
The truth is found in the evidence of reality, not in bronze aged books and superstition.

And yet that bronze aged book predicted expansion long before the evidence of it's reality was ever found......

It predicted the stasis found in the fossil record, which has only been sadly attempted to be countered with claims of "missing common ancestors".

It predicted that no matter how you tried to change those bacteria, they would remain bacteria.

It predicted that no matter how you tried to change those fruit flies they would remain fruit flies....

It predicted that no matter how many times we bred wolves or mutation affected them, they would remain the same species..... Only through incorrect classifications or missing links do species change.....

Justatruthseeker · Nov 23, 2018

DogmaHunter said:
Pure fantasy, contrary to the actual evidence.

Its what you all keep saying, but can't seem to produce the actual evidence that you say contradicts it.....

marineimaging · Nov 23, 2018

Justatruthseeker said:
Time dilation is indeed an experimental fact.

So as velocity increases decay rates slow. But if you use today's slower rate to calculate into the past without taking into account the decay rates increase as you go backwards, you would come to the incorrect conclusion that the earth was billions of years old.

By products of this is that mass also increases due to an increase in energy, hence we no longer have dinosaur sized animals because they can not exist in today's higher mass.

But rulers also increase. So as we go backwards the orbit size of the planets increase, making days longer. So likewise we can not say it was 6,000 years ago, because our years (orbits around the sun) are different then they once were. Also earth increases in size (volume) leading to longer days. Also to less gravity since it was spread out over a larger distance (F = Gm1m2/r^2), an inverse square law, which means animals were bigger and get smaller as the distance lessens and mass increases due to energy added.....

Likewise the genome was then perfect, but the increased decay rate started damaging the genome through mutation and led to shorter and shorter lifespans. But days also got shorter and years shorter as orbital size and planet sizes decreased. So they probably actually lived a very long time compared to our shorter years and days now.

It all easily fits into a Biblical framework if one uses the science we understand it to be and neither side ignores it.... How old is the earth? I couldn't tell you and no one can, because we can't determine our true velocity through space.

Some will argue we can calculate our velocity from the CMB, but that is so easily shown to be pseudoscience I won't bother to discuss it at this time, unless you are curious....

Without much of a scientific mind to work with I like the way you presented your point. One thing that all of this we think eventually arrives at is that no matter how old the earth the grace of God through the sacrifice of His son to redeem our failures, that is sufficient. I can stand on the Rock of Jesus Christ and nobody can knock me off because it is HE who put me there and HE who will lift me when I stumble. All of the knowledge in the universe cannot change the truth and the truth is that we are all sinners, we all fail, we all can be lifted by Christ or we can reject the truth and live to merely die. I prefer to live in the love of Christ and to embrace His eternal grace when He calls me home.

paul becke · Nov 23, 2018

Kylie said:
So big complex things need to be created?

Wow ! What a telling, informative riposte ! Good gracious, no. They just happen.

Justatruthseeker · Nov 23, 2018

paul becke said:
Wow ! What a telling, informative riposte ! Good gracious, no. They just happen.

Someone with a sarcastic wit I can relate to

You forgot the magic words.... over millions of years.....
Can't explain something complex, just add the words millions of years. That solves everything.... sigh.....

Kylie · Nov 23, 2018

Aman777 said:
Sure, but be more specific and tell us where the Koran tells us about the multiverse.[/quiote]

Other people have indeed done this.

The Qur'an Project

Scientific facts in the Holy Quran | islam.ru

It's not just a prediction but a scientific Fact that we live in a multiverse which is composed of at least 3 Universes. The first firmament/Heaven was made the 2nd Day Genesis 1:8 and other Heavens were made on the 3rd Day. Genesis 2:4 When today's most advanced scientists discover this Fact, they will confirm information which ONLY God could have known 3k years ago. It's proof of God.

Click to expand...

And how will we see the differences between these three universes? How can we expect to see different about them?

For example, you might say, "If we see some region where such-and-such physical law that we know does not work, but this other law works, then we know that it is the 2nd universe, the firmament."

In other words, be specific about your claim. Then we'll see if science ever makes a discovery that agrees with you.

My favorite argument for the existence of God

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