Heresy of Perfectionism (aka Sinless Perfectionism)

rjs330 said:

Jason, you are doing exactly what you always do, which is not listen and not comprehend. You are so bound by your notions that you twist what people are saying. You've done that to me a lot. Your understanding of scripture, grace righteousness, sanctification, justification etc is some of the shallowest understanding I have ever seen. Your understanding of what it means to walk is so shallow. You preach a message of bondage and condemnation. I am no longer going to respond to you because you are one of those believers who doesn't teach the entire message of the gospel.

I know that you are not being malicious. I believe your heart is in the right place. But you only teach one part of the gospel and leave out the other parts.

I will defend others who have it right, but no longer respond to posts directed at me. You have what is called and unteachable spirit.

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Most who believe in Easy Believism or Belief Alone-ism (with a de-emphasis on sin) generally believe in Eternal Security. If they do not believe in Eternal Security then they believe the belief that says that "Sin Cannot Separate Them From God." (Which is a denial of basic morality or God's goodness).

As for the comment about having an unteachable spirit: Well, I can also say that those who hold to these two above views also have an unteachable spirit because they are not accepting the many verses I put forth. They do not explain them using the context.

Again, how do you make sense out of these verses?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).


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Jason0047 said:

I am not attacking anything. John is writing to the brethren and warning them of the false gnostic beliefs.

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you" (1 John 2:26).


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Very good response. Thank you for noticing that scripture.

1stcenturylady said:

Very good response. Thank you for noticing that scripture.

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You are most welcome.


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1stcenturylady said:

Very good response. Thank you for noticing that scripture.

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The problem was the seducers were the ones claiming no sin.

Jason0047 said:

Most who believe in Easy Believism or Belief Alone-ism (with a de-emphasis on sin) generally believe in Eternal Security. If they do not believe in Eternal Security then they believe the belief that says that "Sin Cannot Separate Them From God." (Which is a denial of basic morality or God's goodness).

As for the comment about having an unteachable spirit: Well, I can also say that those who hold to these two above views also have an unteachable spirit because they are not accepting the many verses I put forth. They do not explain them using the context.

Again, how do you make sense out of these verses?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).


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The unteachable spirit is obvious in your response. You see neither I nor the other poster you are speaking to believe in either if the things you propose. Neither of us believe in faith alone as a Christian walk and neither if us believe in eternal security. And neither of us believe that sin cannot separate us from God. That is what I mean by stubborn. You continue to have an unteachable spirit because you fail to actually listen. You are so busy assuming what people think and say you are actually hearing what they are saying. The fact that you also quoted those scriptures proves my point for those scriptures are exactly what I have been saying because they combine faith and works. Combine those with the scriptures that speak of Christ being our righteousness and our advocate and walking in faith and you get the entire picture.

rjs330 said:

The problem was the seducers were the ones claiming no sin.

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What is the motive behind your insistence that Christians sin willfully (and willfully is what Jason and I are talking about)? And willful sin is what a Christian does not do according to 1 John 3:4-10. We have the Spirit that makes us dead to that kind of sin. Don't you know that by now? If you have the all powerful Holy Spirit in you, you would about choke before a lie could come out of your mouth. You couldn't do it! The Spirit would rise up in your conscience so loud and clear before the first syllable passed your lips. If you quenched the Spirit with your will (free will) and lied anyway, the only way to get Him back would be to turn away from the sin of lying, and repent all over again, otherwise you carry that sin like an unbeliever. Paul speaks against using grace as a license to sin. He said, God forbid! (Romans 6:1). He also said in the same chapter that the "wages of sin is death," to combat those who thought they could now sin willfully and that sin be under the blood of Jesus.

1 John 1:9 is how to become a Christian, and stay a Christian if you willfully sin. You cannot use 1 John 2:1 and claim you have an advocate for willful sins. Don't you see that verse has no requirement for repenting. Jesus automatically advocates for the unknown sins we commit while walking in the Spirit. Just as 1 John 1:7 says. NO repentance, as we don't even know about them.

It is the Gnostics who said otherwise! Do you really want to continue to say otherwise, yourself? If you continue with your liberal view, you may reap a whirlwind!

1stcenturylady said:

What is the motive behind your insistence that Christians sin willfully (and willfully is what Jason and I are talking about)? And willful sin is what a Christian does not do according to 1 John 3:4-10. We have the Spirit that makes us dead to that kind of sin. Don't you know that by now? If you have the all powerful Holy Spirit in you, you would about choke before a lie could come out of your mouth. You couldn't do it! The Spirit would rise up in your conscience so loud and clear before the first syllable passed your lips. If you quenched the Spirit with your will (free will) and lied anyway, the only way to get Him back would be to turn away from the sin of lying, and repent all over again, otherwise you carry that sin like an unbeliever. Paul speaks against using grace as a license to sin. He said, God forbid! (Romans 6:1). He also said in the same chapter that the "wages of sin is death," to combat those who thought they could now sin willfully and that sin be under the blood of Jesus.

1 John 1:9 is how to become a Christian, and stay a Christian if you willfully sin. You cannot use 1 John 2:1 and claim you have an advocate for willful sins. Don't you see that verse has no requirement for repenting. Jesus automatically advocates for the unknown sins we commit while walking in the Spirit. Just as 1 John 1:7 says. NO repentance, as we don't even know about them.

It is the Gnostics who said otherwise! Do you really want to continue to say otherwise, yourself? If you continue with your liberal view, you may reap a whirlwind!

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One of the Gnostic views was that there wasn't any real sin. That is what John was addressing as well as the Gnostic belief that denied Christ.

Here's the thing. We as believers have the Holy Spirit in us as we are the temple right? We are also made a new creation in Christ correct? Our righteousness is in Christ and we are made free from sin right? What that means is we are not slaves to sin. So, nearly every sin we do is willful. We do not have to sin like the unbeliever does. But we still do. Every thought we think, every word we say, every action we take should be guided by the Holy Spirit but it is not. If you drive down the street and someone cuts you off and you wish them ill of any kind that is wilfull sin. You say an unkind word to your spouse after an exhausting day at work, that is wilfull sin. You stub your toe and throw out a curse word, that's wilfull sin. You fail to be perfect in any deed act or thought is wilfull sin.
Why? Because we are not slaves to sin.

Wilfull sin in and of itself does not automatically separate us from God. It is the continuous wilfull sin that does. It is the sinful walk that does.

You are as bad as Jason on this. You are so bound to your assumptions about what we are saying that you are deaf and blind to what we and the scriptures are saying. Of course we don't use grace as a license to sin. Doing so puts us in grave danger. But your understanding of sanctification, justification and righteousness in Christ is very shallow.
There are no unknown sins for a believer. If we had the mind of Christ we would no the thing we do is sinful. Not knowing that is sinful in itself. This all because we still wrestle with the flesh because we have not yet achieved the perfection we will have upon our transformation when we become like him either in the rapture or the resurrection.

The Bible is very clear that it is a totality of our works that is judged and not individual acts. It is our walk with Christ that is meaningful or our walk away from Christ and in the lusts of the flesh that matter. That's the point of John as I have pointed out over and over. Those sins that we commit as a single act are advocated for by Christ because our relationship with him. We are not in fearful judgement for perfect love casts out fear. But if we choose to keep on sinning as a walk we will be judged and quite harshly too.

rjs330 said:

One of the Gnostic views was that there wasn't any real sin. That is what John was addressing as well as the Gnostic belief that denied Christ.

Here's the thing. We as believers have the Holy Spirit in us as we are the temple right? We are also made a new creation in Christ correct? Our righteousness is in Christ and we are made free from sin right? What that means is we are not slaves to sin. So, nearly every sin we do is willful. We do not have to sin like the unbeliever does. But we still do. Every thought we think, every word we say, every action we take should be guided by the Holy Spirit but it is not. If you drive down the street and someone cuts you off and you wish them ill of any kind that is wilfull sin. You say an unkind word to your spouse after an exhausting day at work, that is wilfull sin. You stub your toe and throw out a curse word, that's wilfull sin. You fail to be perfect in any deed act or thought is wilfull sin.
Why? Because we are not slaves to sin.

Wilfull sin in and of itself does not automatically separate us from God. It is the continuous wilfull sin that does. It is the sinful walk that does.

You are as bad as Jason on this. You are so bound to your assumptions about what we are saying that you are deaf and blind to what we and the scriptures are saying. Of course we don't use grace as a license to sin. Doing so puts us in grave danger. But your understanding of sanctification, justification and righteousness in Christ is very shallow.
There are no unknown sins for a believer. If we had the mind of Christ we would no the thing we do is sinful. Not knowing that is sinful in itself. This all because we still wrestle with the flesh because we have not yet achieved the perfection we will have upon our transformation when we become like him either in the rapture or the resurrection.

The Bible is very clear that it is a totality of our works that is judged and not individual acts. It is our walk with Christ that is meaningful or our walk away from Christ and in the lusts of the flesh that matter. That's the point of John as I have pointed out over and over. Those sins that we commit as a single act are advocated for by Christ because our relationship with him. We are not in fearful judgement for perfect love casts out fear. But if we choose to keep on sinning as a walk we will be judged and quite harshly too.

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I'll answer when I get home tonight. In the meantime, please show me why you think you can still sin and not immediately ask forgiveness, and still be saved.

1stcenturylady said:

I'll answer when I get home tonight. In the meantime, please show me why you think you can still sin and not immediately ask forgiveness, and still be saved.

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I see you didn't answer this, but I do have another question. You said, "But if we choose to keep on sinning as a walk we will be judged and quite harshly too."

Is that in heaven? Or hell?

rjs330 said:

The unteachable spirit is obvious in your response. You see neither I nor the other poster you are speaking to believe in either if the things you propose. Neither of us believe in faith alone as a Christian walk and neither if us believe in eternal security. And neither of us believe that sin cannot separate us from God. That is what I mean by stubborn. You continue to have an unteachable spirit because you fail to actually listen. You are so busy assuming what people think and say you are actually hearing what they are saying. The fact that you also quoted those scriptures proves my point for those scriptures are exactly what I have been saying because they combine faith and works. Combine those with the scriptures that speak of Christ being our righteousness and our advocate and walking in faith and you get the entire picture.

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Okay. So you are saying you do not believe in OSAS. I believe you. So this shows you that I am listening. But now you are making it clear to me that you do not believe that "Sin Does Not Separate You From God" as others teach. But I am not entirely convinced here of that. You are saying that "One Sin Does Not Separate A Believer From God." This like a Lite Version of the Belief "Sin Does Not Separate a Believer From God."

Also, as for the insult: Well, I can say that you have an unteachable spirit, too. But throwing around insults does not prove anything. What the Scriptures say is what truly matters. So please use Scripture to make your case.

For you merely have jumped down my throat because I have misunderstood your belief initially. But after you have explained it, I am now beginning to see what it is. I am not a mind reader and I have no idea what your belief is until you tell me what it is. Most believe in OSAS. Whether you believe that or not does not change that fact. Only a few believe in "Sin Does Not Separate a Believer From God." So you have to take these truths under consideration when believers like myself are speaking out against your wrong idea of sin. People are going to misunderstand you unless you tell them upfront in what you truly believe.

But you are saying you do not believe that "Sin separates the Believer from God."
But this is not entirely a true statement. If I understood you correctly in what you have said, your belief is in the ball park realm of the belief called "Sin Does Not Separate You From God." type belief because you yourself are teaching that one sin cannot separate a believer from God. You believe it takes LOTS of sin in order for that to happen. Okay. If that is true, then show me in Scripture where that is the ONLY case for a believer.

Also, as for clarification (So as to leave no doubt in what you believe): Are you saying that one sin cannot separate a believer from God and that it takes lots of sin in order for that to happen? I am asking this because I just want to make sure this is what you believe.

Anyways, you can keep up with the insults or you can show me Scripture to prove that one sin does not separate us from God and explain the verses I brought forth that appear to speak against your belief here. The choice is yours. Insults? Or show me the Scriptures?

Side Note:

Oh, and please realize that Jesus said that Christians will be spoken evil of falsely. So please do not do that with me, dear sir. Prove you are a child of God who seeking to love your enemies and do good unto them.


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Okay, lets recap the beliefs that may be going on here for those who appear to be justifying sin (with the thinking they are saved).

There are three major types of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved):

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing). At first glance, this belief is harder to spot. So the right questions have to be asked to discover this person's belief.

Then there is the "Non-OSAS - Sin Does Not Separate a Believer From God" type beliefs.

Non-OSAS - SDNS BFG Belief Type #1.
Non-OSAS - Sin Does Not Separate a Believer From God.
This is the belief that no amount of sin can separate a believer from God. However, a believer can choose to walk away from Christ and forfeit their salvation. So free will is held intact. This is false because the Bible does say that abiding in sin is spiritual death in many places (Regardless of whether you are a believer or not).

Non-OSAS - SDNS BFG Belief Type #2.
The Lite Version of the Non-OSAS - Sin Does Not Separate a Believer From God.
This is the belief that ONE sin does not separate a believer from God; However, it takes lots of sin in order to be separated from God instead. Yet, Adam was separated from God by one sin. Ananais and Sapphira were separated from God by their one sin. Simon was told to repent and pray to God so as to get his heart right with God over his one sin. Jesus says, "But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness." (Matthew 6:23). Jesus also says, "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things." (Matthew 12:35).


Conclusion:

Only OSAS Type #3 is the only moral position or belief going on here (Even though such a belief is still misguided and wrong).

Also, Non-OSAS - SDNS BFG Belief Type #2. appears to be very similar to Mid Range OSAS (OSAS Type #2). They both teach that it takes lots of sin in order to separate a believer from God and that one sin will not necessarily separate a believer from God if not repented of. This of course is a justification of evil still. For there is no difference between a person justifying a little bit of evil vs. a lot of evil. It is still a justification of evil; And it is wrong!


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rjs330 said:

The problem was the seducers were the ones claiming no sin.

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They were false gnostic believers in Christ who thought they were without sin.
There are people today who are justifying sin in the church today. Their belief is similar to the gnostic belief. For when a person says they are not condemned by committing sin (on any level), they are a liar (or do not the truth) according to 1 John 1:6, 1 John 1:8, and 1 John 2:4.

1 John 1:6, 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 are clearly gnostic beliefs that is different from the believer's thinking or beliefs. So there is no conflict or problem here. A person in the church today can have a variation of this kind of belief and still be wrong. The belief does not have to be 100% exactly like the gnostics in order for it to be wrong.


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Tetra said:

There seems to be a common trend I'm observing on the forum, and that is the idea of sinless perfectionism. That somehow the Holy Spirit has removed not only all sin, but even the desire to sin. That "true" Christians become sinless.

A recent thread on CF promoting this heresy:
If you commit sin are you still of God? Yes or no

"Perfectionists" love 1 John 3 it seems:

1 John 3:9, "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

1 John 3:6, "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him."

1 John 5:18, "We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him."

Matt Slick of CARM explained these verses well though:

Can a Christian achieve sinless perfection? | carm

You can also check out R.C Sprouls: The Heresy of Perfectionism here:
The Heresy of Perfectionism

Have you also come across this in your interactions on CF?

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Does God demand perfection? Or does He care what we do?

Of course God demands perfection, that was the point of the Law. It was to show us how impossible it was to obey it perfectly ... so we would admit the truth that we were imperfect sinners who could not possibly get to heaven on our own merits, so that we would repent and seek God's forgiveness and regeneration.

This also the reason for the Cross. We get to exchange our sins and our sinful nature and its consequences for Jesus Christ ... who is perfect. He becomes our righteousness (because we don't have any of our own). It is faith in Christ's righteousness that gets us to heaven, not our own righteousness (which is but "filthy rags" as the scriptures say).

The ideal of Perfection in a human being is only realized by Jesus Christ. No one else can achieve it. When we are commanded to be perfect, we are directed toward this divine ideal. It is like a compass direction. “True north” is a direction, it does not tell us where we are supposed to be right now. But as long as we keep our eyes on Christ (the Perfect One) and keep praying to Him and reading His Word, we will be moving in the right direction. That is the best that a fallible human being can do.

When we believe, God begins His Holy Spirit sanctifying work, changing our hearts and over time, changing our behavior. With real faith, now we truly want to please God and keep His commandments, we don't want to sin (although our bad habits are not yet completely conquered). So we grow. We keep getting better. Not yet perfect, but moving in that direction. The Lord will finish the job; as the scripture passage says, He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. In heaven, we will be perfect. As for now, true believers are in His hands, and He is faithful and powerful enough to take us all the way home.