Praying to Saints

prodromos said:

How would you know, since you've never experienced the love of the Saints?

Something I have never argued. A shame you feel the need to argue a strawman.

I enjoy abundant blessings through the prayers of the Saints. Why do you equate that with weak faith?

As a father, I take great pleasure in my children supporting each other and making requests on behalf of each other. Do you really think our heavenly Father is any different in that regard?

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IF you do not think your father can hear you or does not love you enough to listen, then it makes sense to go to someone else and ask them to talk to your father. But if you have a good relationship and if you trust your father, you will go directly to him to speak. I confess that as a child I would go to my mother and ask her to speak to my Dad because I did not trust him to really take me seriously. I knew he would take Mom seriously.
But our heavenly Father is not like my earthly father; He knows our needs and wants even before we speak, and He loves me perfectly. God can be completely trusted with my open and vulnerable heart. No one else can know my desires and needs like the Lord does. And He does not need the fallible opinions of other people to direct His decisions about me. IF I must ask dead people to pray for me, then I do not trust Him fully; my faith is very weak.

Albion said:

They think that people who have already been admitted to heaven must have more pull with God, so they enlist them as go-betweens.

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Saw this short reply in my e-mail. Interesting. Agree. Would like to add:
If you ask your parents for anything.... you dont do that with a in between, UNLESS your relationship with your parents is very very bad...... bam. Cash that! Solution in such cases, restore the relationship with your parents. Then you can face eachother again without disgrace, shame, etc. Would you not find it weird to ask your brother or sister and have him / her to ask your parents????? Why not ask directly? Same principle applies to God and us....

Talking (aka praying, worshipping, etc) is based on you to God directly. This is relationship bases. Relationships CANNOT go trought others! POINT. If you go throught others to communicate with that person (God or humans), that means you do not have a relationship...

in betweens: technology (whatsapp based relationships, never been together), so called saints.

Everyone is saint, so there is no need for in between saints. As explained above, go TALK to your parents or God directly. then your relationship with that person has started.......Anyne who uses in between saints has not started a real relationship with God. Same applies to human friends.
You cannot ask your friend to talk to someone else and say that 3rd person has become your friend. No! does not work that way. That is fake . worthless....

If I knew I was in heaven and I knew many are praying to me, I would really feel sick and sad. I would just redirect those prayers to God, re-stamping them. This means people on earth are just using the wrong address. Just use this address: "TO God of Heaven and EArth". Then you are not using valuable heavenly resources. This is called efficientcy. Since Jesus died for us, the door to God is wide open, God just waits for His children to jump onto His lap and talk to Him. The devil is smart by creating so many false lies that you need to talk through others. The only thing that prevents you going to God directly is sin and unwillingness.

How to approach God directly? Try this:
Abba Father, I thank you and I praise you (Psalm 100:4)
....(now you ar ein His presence. It's that easy)
This I pray in Jesus name amen.

Psalm 100:4 shows you how to appraoch God's throne!
Everything is already written in the bible. How come soo many people do not know?? Reason: many false teachers..... not saying who.....

Dr Bruce Atkinson said:

IF I must ask dead people to pray for me, then I do not trust Him fully; my faith is very weak.

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That may be true for you, it is not so for me or anyone else in my communion. You also appear to misunderstand our position when you write "If I must ask dead people". There is no "must", there is simply love.

chihwahli said:

Saw this short reply in my e-mail. Interesting. Agree. Would like to add:
If you ask your parents for anything.... you dont do that with a in between, UNLESS your relationship with your parents is very very bad...... bam. Cash that! Solution in such cases, restore the relationship with your parents. Then you can face eachother again without disgrace, shame, etc. Would you not find it weird to ask your brother or sister and have him / her to ask your parents????? Why not ask directly? Same principle applies to God and us....

Talking (aka praying, worshipping, etc) is based on you to God directly. This is relationship bases. Relationships CANNOT go trought others! POINT. If you go throught others to communicate with that person (God or humans), that means you do not have a relationship...

in betweens: technology (whatsapp based relationships, never been together), so called saints.

Everyone is saint, so there is no need for in between saints. As explained above, go TALK to your parents or God directly. then your relationship with that person has started.......Anyne who uses in between saints has not started a real relationship with God. Same applies to human friends.
You cannot ask your friend to talk to someone else and say that 3rd person has become your friend. No! does not work that way. That is fake . worthless....

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I take it you never ask others to pray for you. I also note that you frame this as an either/or situation which is a misrepresentation. We ask God directly AND we ask others to ask God on our behalf.

prodromos said:

I take it you never ask others to pray for you. I also note that you frame this as an either/or situation which is a misrepresentation. We ask God directly AND we ask others to ask God on our behalf.

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the more the merrier?

probably can't have too many "recommendation letters" on judgement day

better to have too many than otherwise

think the Romans 14 "to each his own, live and let live" view is sufficient for unity in this matter

don't have to force people to enlist the Saints' prayers, especially when they aren't condemning you for doing so

Dr Bruce Atkinson said:

IF IT WERE IMPORTANT TO PRAY TO THOSE ALREADY GONE, WE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD TO DO SO. That is the bottom line.

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well, if it were absolutely MISSION CRITICAL it would appear there, one should think

yet, there might be practices permitted but not spelled out

for example, where in Scripture does it say to wear, or erect, red crosses?

yet, those who do don't offend God or Christ, right?

Dr Bruce Atkinson said:

Prodromos,
Your "probably" says it all. Your logic is of men, not God. It is not about love, except for love of God, it is about what God tells us to do and does not tell us to do.
You really don't have a clue in terms of the earliest Church (we get that information only from the NT scriptures). We do not have any recommendations in the OT to pray to the prophets, nor in the NT to interact with believers who have died. They had St. Stephen and a number of other early martyrs. But neither Paul nor Peter ever mentions our being able to have contact with them, and never suggests to pray to them (not when the Lord Jesus Himself is available at the right hand of the Father). You do not seem to understand that to pray to anyone other than God is a disrespectful put down to Him. When we have God, why even consider praying to others? On earth, with church and family members, it is different; we are told to pray for each other and to ask for prayers. We are all in the same earthly boat. IF IT WERE IMPORTANT TO PRAY TO THOSE ALREADY GONE, WE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD TO DO SO. That is the bottom line.

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As I read your post, it looks like you're conflating "prayer" with "worship". They're not necessarily the same thing.

Still, based on what you describe as the "bottom line", I infer that you have a rather constructive view of Sacred Scripture. That is, a given religious practice must be explicitly authorized in Sacred Scripture as a condition of being believed/practiced. Is that accurate on my part?