2,300 evenings and mornings

claninja · Nov 23, 2018

Tolworth John said:
And as we cannot know when he is coming all this is irrelevent

Daniel 8 has nothing to do with the 2nd coming of Christ, so still not following you.

claninja · Nov 23, 2018

Douggg said:
Maybe born in Greece. He comes out of one the four breakup kingdoms with a strong army. It doesn't mean that he will be born there.

The person may be born in Rome, because he is from the people who destroyed the city and temple.

To me, we don't have enough concrete information to say for sure where he will be born.

Greece broke into 4 kingdoms just as Daniel 8 states: Seleucid, Ptolemy, Lysimachus, Cassander.
Antiochus came at the latter end of the Seleucid empire, which, by the way, was still considered the Greek empire according to the Jews
1 Maccabees 1:10 From them came forth a sinful root, Antiochus Epiphanes, son of King Antiochus; he had been a hostage in Rome. He began to reign in the one hundred thirty-seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks

claninja · Nov 23, 2018

Douggg said:
It is the vision that covers a 2300 days timeframe.

Incorrect, it is not the entire vision. Greece did not conquer Persia and then split into 4 kingdoms within 2,300 evenings and mornings.

Daniel specifically asked about the time frame of the regular burnt offering ceasing, the transgression that makes desolate, and the trampling of host and sanctuary, not the entire vision
Daniel 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”

Douggg said:
It is not known how many daily twice-during-the-day sacrifices will actually be made, because it is not known when during that 2300 day timeframe the person with stop that daily sacrifice.

What? We exactly know: 2,300

Douggg said:
The 2300 days information allows it to be determined when the sacrifices will start again*. But it does inform what exact day when it will be stopped.

yes it does. It was stopped for 2,300 evenings and mornings.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For HOW LONG is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”

Daniel 8:14 he said to me,c “For 2,300 evenings and mornings.

DavidPT · Nov 23, 2018

claninja said:
Daniel 8 has nothing to do with the 2nd coming of Christ, so still not following you.

Of course it does. Not all of it does though. Some of it is clearly already fulfilled. What is yet to be fulfilled is Daniel 8:9-14, which is also meaning Daniel 8:19-26.

DavidPT · Nov 23, 2018

Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

It clearly says right here in black and white---Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.---and not instead---Unto 1150 days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

claninja · Nov 23, 2018

DavidPT said:
What is yet to be fulfilled is Daniel 8:9-14, which is also meaning Daniel 8:19-26.

Incorrect, this has been fulfilled:

As Alexander the great, king of Greece, had no heir, his kingdom was split between his 4 generals: Seleucus, Ptolemy, Lysimachus, Cassander
Daniel 8:8 The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

Daniel 8:22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

1 Maccabees 1:5-9
After this he fell sick and perceived that he was dying. 6 So he summoned his most honored officers, who had been brought up with him from youth, and divided his kingdom among them while he was still alive. And after Alexander had reigned twelve years, he died. Then his officers began to rule, each in his own place. They all put on crowns after his death, and so did their descendants after them for many years; and they caused many evils on the earth.

Antiochus Epiphanes came out of them, specifically the Seleucid empire.
Daniel 8:9-10 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land.

Daniel 8:23 In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

1 Maccabees 1:8-10 Then his officers began to rule, each in his own place. 9 They all put on crowns after his death, and so did their descendants after them for many years; and they caused many evils on the earth. From them came forth a sinful root, Antiochus Epiphanes, son of King Antiochus; he had been a hostage in Rome. He began to reign in the one hundred thirty-seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks.

Antiochus and his forces trampled the people of Jerusalem and defiled the temple
Daniel 8:10-11 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down.

Daniel 8:24-25 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes.

1 Maccabees 1:54-61 Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred forty-fifth year they erected a desolating sacrilege on the altar of burnt offering. They also built altars in the surrounding towns of Judah, and offered incense at the doors of the houses and in the streets. The books of the law that they found they tore to pieces and burned with fire. Anyone found possessing the book of the covenant, or anyone who adhered to the law, was condemned to death by decree of the king. They kept using violence against Israel, against those who were found month after month in the towns. On the twenty-fifth day of the month they offered sacrifice on the altar that was on top of the altar of burnt offering. According to the decree, they put to death the women who had their children circumcised, and their families and those who circumcised them; and they hung the infants from their mothers’ necks.

It was 2,300 evenings and mornings (2,300 evening and morning daily offerings) or 1,150 days (3 years and 10 days) from the setting up of the abomination that causes desolation, until the temple was re dedicated
Daniel 8:14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

1 Maccabees 1:54 Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred forty-fifth year, they erected a desolating sacrilege on the altar of burnt offering.

1 Maccabees 4:52-53 Early in the morning on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month, which is the month of Chislev, in the one hundred forty-eighth year,e]'>[e] 53 they rose and offered sacrifice, as the law directs, on the new altar of burnt offering that they had built

Antiochus Epiphanes was killed by God.
Daniel 8:25 and he shall be broken—but by no human hand

2 Maccabees 9:5-6 But the all-seeing Lord, the God of Israel, struck him with an incurable and invisible blow. As soon as he stopped speaking he was seized with a pain in his bowels, for which there was no relief, and with sharp internal tortures— 6 and that very justly, for he had tortured the bowels of others with many and strange inflictions

** So I'm not following you on how this hasn't been fulfilled yet. Also, which part mentions the 2nd coming?

Douggg · Nov 23, 2018

claninja said:
If the angel meant 2,300 "days", AND NOT 2,300 evening and mornings, then I would see your point. But the angel didn't

Since the vision involves the "daily sacrifice (hattamid)" then using scripture to interpret scripture, we can understand that the "evenings and mornings" are related to the "daily sacrifice". THEREFORE, the 2,300 evenings and mornings are 2,300 "daily sacrifices (hattamid)"

****So, I'll ask again, how many days would it take to sacrifice 2,300 lambs (the daily sacrifice "hattamid")?

It is not 2300 lambs that are sacrificed It is 2300 days, of which there will be lambs sacrificed during that time as part of the prophecy time.

The other parts are that the person commits the transgression of desolation act. And the host (the Jews) to be trodden under foot. And the temple being desolate until it is cleansed. (The KJV says cleansed.)

All of it is 2300 days long.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

claninja · Nov 23, 2018

DavidPT said:
It clearly says right here in black and white---Unto two thousand and three hundred days;

Not it doesn't say 2,300 "DAYS". It states 2,300 "evenings and mornings"
Daniel 8:14 And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”

In Daniel 8:14 you will find the Hebrew word ereb, which is evening, and you will find the Hebrew word boqer, which is morning.

In order to understand 2,300 "evenings and mornings" with regards to the daily sacrifice (hattamid) you have to understand the old testament daily sacrifice (hattamid), which consisted of 2 sacrificed lambs day by day: 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening
Numbers 28:3-4 And you shall say to them, This is the food offering that you shall offer to the Lord: two male lambs a year old without blemish, day by day, as a daily offering. The one lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight;

2,300 evenings and mornings = 2,300 lambs offered, 1 in morning and 1 in the evening.

How many days would it take to offer 2,300 daily sacrifices (1 in the morning and 1 in the evening)? 1,150 days

Douggg · Nov 23, 2018

iamlamad said:
I disagree. It seems many imagine the man of sin will be killed. That is not what the word really tells us: it is ONE HEAD that receives a deadly wound.

That one head is the seventh head of Revelation 17:10, yet to come. Who is the little horn person, who then becomes the Antichrist, who then becomes the revealed man of sin - claims to be God.

And in Ezekiel 28:1-10, God will have killed from making that claim.

And we see that heads are leaders of nations or the nation itself. Many people list the heads as Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, (as the five who are fallen) and then Rome and finally the head still to come. So it is one of these nations that is defeated and its "head" killed. What happened to Iraq (Babylon) in our recent history? The nation was defeated and the leader hung to death. Is that a deadly wound? I would say so. This meaning Iraq is only my opinion.

No, the heads are kings, not kingdoms, in the text.

claninja · Nov 23, 2018

Douggg said:
It is not 2300 lambs that are sacrificed. It is 2300 days

Incorrect. It is 2,300 Evenings and Mornings, in regards to the daily offering.

Daniel 8:13-14 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the daily burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?” 14And he said to me,c “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”

Douggg said:
The other parts are that the person commits the transgression of desolation act. And the host (the Jews) to be trodden under foot. And the temple being desolate until it is cleansed. (The KJV says cleansed.)

I agree and according to the book of Maccabees, from the time the AOD was set up and the people of jerusalem trampled, until it was re-dedicated, was 3 years and 10 days, which would be 1,150 days or 2,300 evening and morning sacrifices. But, according to you, this is purely coincidence and has nothing to do with Daniel 8.

Douggg · Nov 23, 2018

claninja said:
Daniel 8:13-14 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the daily burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?” 14And he said to me,c “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”

It is not 2300 days of sacrificing lambs. Nor 1150 lambs sacrificed.

Only part of the 2300 days involves sacrificing lambs, because the little stops it.

The other part of the 2300 days is the host (the Jews) being trampled on during that time.

And the temple made desolate - because the person will be claiming to be God and sitting in the temple during that time.

claninja · Nov 23, 2018

Douggg said:
It is not 2300 days of sacrificing lambs.

First, it doesn't say 2,300 "days". The Hebrews word for day (yom) is not found in Daniel 8:14. It says evening (ereb) morning (boqer).

Now, if Daniel 8:14 stated for 2,300 days (yom) and 2,300 nights (layil). I would agree with you. BUT IT DOESN'T SAY THAT.

Notice in Deuteronomy, moses was before the Lord 40 days and 40 nights. We can agree that this means 40 days.
Deuteronomy 9:18 Then I fell down before the LORD for forty days (yom) and forty nights (layil), as I had done the first time.

However Daniel 8:14 states something different. It simply states 2,300 evening (ereb) morning (boqer). And since the context includes the daily (evening lamb sacrifice and morning lamb sacrifice), it is more likely that the 2,300 evenings and mornings refers to that.

Douggg said:
Only part of the 2300 days involves sacrificing lambs, because the little stops it.

There was no daily sacrifice to God in the temple for 3 years and 10 days (1,150 days = 2,300 morning and evening sacrifices) while Antiochus set up the AOD and trampled Israel.

**I suggest reading through 1 Maccabees.

Douggg said:
because the person will be claiming to be God and sitting in the temple during that time.

Please provide verse in Daniel 8, that specifically states this

Douggg · Nov 23, 2018

claninja said:
First, it doesn't say 2,300 "days". The Hebrews word for day (yom) is not found in Daniel 8:14. It says evening (ereb) morning (boqer).

It is equivalent to saying 2300 days, and is used because for part of that time there will be the evening and morning lambs offered.

claninja said:
ow, if Daniel 8:14 stated for 2,300 days (yom) and 2,300 nights (layil). I would agree with you. BUT IT DOESN'T SAY THAT.

The Jewish days does not start in the AM. It starts in the evening at sundown - which evenings are listed first in the prophecy.

Please provide verse in Daniel 8, that specifically states this

It is not stated in Daniel 8 that he claims to be God. That he claims to be God comes from when he goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God in 2Thessalonians 2:4. which triggers the day of the Lord, and them saying peace and safety at the time shall not escape in 1Thessalonians5:2-3. Which is the transgression of desolation act in Daniel 8:13.

It doesn't say what the transgression of desolation act in Daniel 8:13 is in Daniel 8.

But it is pieced together from other parts of the bible, based on information given in Daniel 8, like the person magnifying himself in his heart. Which is a key in Ezekiel 28:1-10 of why God has him killed for sitting in the seat of God claiming to be God.

Your question is like asking where does it say in Daniel 8 that the Princes of princes in Daniel 8:25 that he stands up against - is Jesus.

Daniel 8:13 transgression of desolation
Daniel 8:25 magnifies himself in his heart
Daniel 8:25 stands up against the Prince of princes
2 Thessalonians2:4 claims to be God, sitting in the temple
Ezekiel 28:2 magnifies himself in his heart, claims to be God, sitting in God's seat, and killed.
Isaiah 14:19-20 brought back to life, kicked out of the grave
Revelation 13:3 having mortally wounded, but healed
Revelation 19:19-20, stands up against Jesus, the Prince of princes, but is destroyed.

All of those go together.

iamlamad · Nov 23, 2018

claninja said:
I disagree

LITTLE HORN OF DANIEL 8 AND 7 ARE NOT THE SAME

1.) they have different origins:

Little horn of Daniel 8 origin: the 4 kingdoms that come from Greece are: Seleucids, Ptolemy, Lysimachus, and Cassendar. These kingdoms were still Greek as they Hellenized their subjects. Antiochus Epihpanes (little horn) came at the "latter end" of the Seleucid kingdom.
Daniel 8:22-23 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, BUT NOT WITH HIS POWER. And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.

The book of Maccabees lets us know that the Seleucid empire is still the kingdom of the Greeks
1 Maccabees 1:10 From them came forth a sinful root, Antiochus Epiphanes, son of King Antiochus; he had been a hostage in Rome. He began to reign in the one hundred thirty-seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks

Little horn of Daniel 7 origin: 4th kingdom after Greek: Roman
Daniel 7:19-20 “Then I desired to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrifying, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze, and which devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet, and about the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which three of them fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and that seemed greater than its companions.

2.) Different lengths of time for trampling God's people:

The little horn of Daniel 8 tramples for 1150 days
Daniel 8:14 And he said to me,“For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”

The little horn of Daniel 7 tramples for time, times, half a time
Daniel 7:25 and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

Very good points.

iamlamad · Nov 23, 2018

Douggg said:
It is equivalent to saying 2300 days, and is used because for part of that time there will be the evening and morning lambs offered.
The Jewish days does not start in the AM. It starts in the evening at sundown - which evenings are listed first in the prophecy.

It is not stated in Daniel 8 that he claims to be God. That he claims to be God comes from when he goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God in 2Thessalonians 2:4. which triggers the day of the Lord, and them saying peace and safety at the time shall not escape in 1Thessalonians5:2-3. Which is the transgression of desolation act in Daniel 8:13.

It doesn't say what the transgression of desolation act in Daniel 8:13 is in Daniel 8.

But it is pieced together from other parts of the bible, based on information given in Daniel 8, like the person magnifying himself in his heart. Which is a key in Ezekiel 28:1-10 of why God has him killed for sitting in the seat of God claiming to be God.

Your question is like asking where does it say in Daniel 8 that the Princes of princes in Daniel 8:25 that he stands up against - is Jesus.

Daniel 8:13 transgression of desolation
Daniel 8:25 magnifies himself in his heart
Daniel 8:25 stands up against the Prince of princes
2 Thessalonians2:4 claims to be God, sitting in the temple
Ezekiel 28:2 magnifies himself in heart claims to be God, sitting in God's seat, and killed.
Isaiah 14:19-20 brought back to life, kicked out of the grave
Revelation 13:3 mortally wounded, but healed
Revelation 19:19-20, stands up against Jesus, the Prince of princes, but is destroyed.

All of those go together.

The HUGE problem with your post is, you are in error and don't know it. Daniel 8 is not about our future - AT ALL. You are pulling verses out of their context. It is about Medo-Persia, the Greece. And in the later time of THEIR (that is the Grecian) kingdoms, Antiochus becomes king. And he does very bad things to Israel, and so becomes a TYPE of the Beast. All your Daniel 8 references are pulled out of that context. The man of sin turned beast does not die: one of the heads (Kingdoms with a king) dies.

iamlamad · Nov 23, 2018

claninja said:
I guess I don't understand why you are placing this in the future, when Antiochus fulfilled Daniel 8 to a tee in the 2nd century BCE.

Simple, he does not believe the truth of Daniel 8 - that it is about Antiochus, NOT someone in our future.

Douggg · Nov 23, 2018

iamlamad said:
The man of sin turned beast does not die: one of the heads (Kingdoms with a king) dies.

The person becomes the revealed man of sin by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God, in 2Thessalonian2:4.

That is what gets him killed in Ezekiel 28:1-10. Then brought back to life in Isaiah 14:18-19, to be the beast.

iamlamad · Nov 23, 2018

claninja said:
Incorrect, it is not the entire vision. Greece did not conquer Persia and then split into 4 kingdoms within 2,300 evenings and mornings.

Daniel specifically asked about the time frame of the regular burnt offering ceasing, the transgression that makes desolate, and the trampling of host and sanctuary, not the entire vision
Daniel 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”

What? We exactly know: 2,300

yes it does. It was stopped for 2,300 evenings and mornings.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For HOW LONG is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”

Daniel 8:14 he said to me,c “For 2,300 evenings and mornings.

I take this to mean that on the 2301st day, the daily sacrifices would continue. By the way, EVERY SINGLE day has an "evening" and a "morning." Good job, claninja.

iamlamad · Nov 23, 2018

Douggg said:
The person becomes revealed man of sin by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

That is what gets him killed in Ezekiel 28:1-10. Then brought back to life in Isaiah 14:18-19, to be the beasts.

Ezekiel 28 is not about the man of sin. There is simply no way to positively connect either of these passages to the man of sin. Of course, one can always imagine....

Douggg · Nov 23, 2018

iamlamad said:
Ezekiel 28 is not about the man of sin. There is simply no way to positively connect either of these passages to the man of sin. Of course, one can always imagine....

I gave you the way...

Daniel 8:13 transgression of desolation
Daniel 8:25 magnifies himself in his heart
Daniel 8:25 stands up against the Prince of princes
2 Thessalonians2:4 claims to be God, sitting in the temple
Ezekiel 28:2 magnifies himself in his heart, claims to be God, sitting in God's seat, and killed, Ezekiel 28:9.
Isaiah 14:19-20 brought back to life, kicked out of the grave
Revelation 13:3 having been mortally wounded, but healed
Revelation 19:19-20, stands up against Jesus, the Prince of princes, but is destroyed.

All of those go together.

2,300 evenings and mornings

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