Praying to Saints

Dr Bruce Atkinson · Nov 22, 2018

concretecamper said:
Really, copy and paste from got questions .org. That there is a great theological powerhouse of a website

Sometimes gotq has the best summaries available of what the scriptures actually reveal. In this case, it is quite so.

Dr Bruce Atkinson · Nov 22, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
offer again,the whole bible is full of the phrase, "pray for"

everyone asks everyone else to "pray for" them, and they especially ask the holy saints, OT & NT

it's like asking someone to put in a good word for you, like asking for a LETTER OF RECOMMENDATION to bolster your application

So if you must repeat yourself, let me do so as well.
Not once do the scriptures command or even suggest for believers to ask saints in heaven to pray for them. Not once is this clearly suggested... for a very good reason or two as others here have shown. There must a huge difference between asking our friends and family here to pray for us and asking saints who have gone on (who we must pray TO in order to ask) to pray for us. If it were reasonable or a good thing, God would have made sure to recommend it to us. He did not. This reality cannot be refuted.

concretecamper · Nov 22, 2018

Dr Bruce Atkinson said:
Sometimes gotq has the best summaries available of what the scriptures actually reveal. In this case, it is quite so.

so there you got it, another authoritative theological source! Maybe one day there will a protestant denomination with the same name.

prodromos · Nov 22, 2018

Dr Bruce Atkinson said:
If it were reasonable or a good thing, God would have made sure to recommend it to us.

He has, by blessing it abundantly. God obviously delights in members of His body praying for one another and growing in love for one another, otherwise I can't imagine why the practice of asking the intercession of the Saints would produce such rich and abundant fruit, consistently over 2 millennia.

Arthur B Via · Nov 22, 2018

It is always best to listen to what GOD tells us, not what man says God tells us! God expressly tells us "it is forbidden to -try- and contact the dead". WE are to develop our relationship with Christ and Pray to our Heavenly Father in Christ Jesus ' name! Attempts to contact the dead are evil, sorcery, demonic and will deflect true believers from putting all their attention and Prays with God. Rest assured friends. God needs NO help from the dead, or anyone else... God bless you all...

Erik Nelson · Nov 23, 2018

Dr Bruce Atkinson said:
So if you must repeat yourself, let me do so as well.
Not once do the scriptures command or even suggest for believers to ask saints in heaven to pray for them. Not once is this clearly suggested... for a very good reason or two as others here have shown. There must a huge difference between asking our friends and family here to pray for us and asking saints who have gone on (who we must pray TO in order to ask) to pray for us. If it were reasonable or a good thing, God would have made sure to recommend it to us. He did not. This reality cannot be refuted.

so, using existing terminology, you draw a wide distinction between the Church militant on earth, and the Church triumphant in heaven?

prodromos · Nov 23, 2018

Arthur B Via said:
It is always best to listen to what GOD tells us, not what man says God tells us! God expressly tells us "it is forbidden to -try- and contact the dead". WE are to develop our relationship with Christ and Pray to our Heavenly Father in Christ Jesus ' name! Attempts to contact the dead are evil, sorcery, demonic and will deflect true believers from putting all their attention and Prays with God. Rest assured friends. God needs NO help from the dead, or anyone else... God bless you all...

The Saints aren't dead. They are alive in Christ.
While you're at it, never ask anyone to pray for you, since God needs no help from anyone.

Erik Nelson · Nov 23, 2018

prodromos said:
The Saints aren't dead. They are alive in Christ.
While you're at it, never ask anyone to pray for you, since God needs no help from anyone.

the NT was written before the Neronian persecution, when most of the original authors were still alive

but when did asking saints in heaven to pray for us begin in earnest? Is there any kind of history book about the practice?

gordonhooker · Nov 23, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
the NT was written before the Neronian persecution, when most of the original authors were still alive

but when did asking saints in heaven to pray for us begin in earnest? Is there any kind of history book about the practice?

I really don't know when, but what I can say in my upbringing as a Christian and formation as a Franciscan Religous asking those living and past is as natural as breathing and praising our Lord and Saviour. The final blessing in our tssf daily Community Obedience office is:

May our blessed Lady pray for us.
May Saint Francis pray for us.
May Saint Clare pray for us.
May all the saints of the Third Order pray for us.
May the holy angels watch over us and befriend us.
May our Lord Jesus give us his blessing and his peace. Amen

and in no way is this final prayer taking anything away from God....

Arthur B Via · Nov 23, 2018

prodromos said:
The Saints aren't dead. They are alive in Christ.
While you're at it, never ask anyone to pray for you, since God needs no help from anyone.

Specifically the saint's -bodies - have died and, like all TRUE believers, we simply separate from our bodies when we die and our Spirit goes to be with Christ. This is written by God in several verses. Read God's Word. God bless you...

Dr Bruce Atkinson · Nov 23, 2018

prodromos said:
He has, by blessing it abundantly. God obviously delights in members of His body praying for one another and growing in love for one another, otherwise I can't imagine why the practice of asking the intercession of the Saints would produce such rich and abundant fruit, consistently over 2 millennia.

Not once is it recommended (and certainly not commanded) in Holy Writ to seek prayers from those who have gone on. Not once. Wonder why.... There certainly are lots of other commands and recommendations in the scriptures. Asking those who have died (even if they are alive in heaven) for anything is in fact praying TO them. There is nothing we can ask them for that Jesus cannot do Himself with total authority to answer. So just pray to HIM!

Dr Bruce Atkinson · Nov 23, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
so, using existing terminology, you draw a wide distinction between the Church militant on earth, and the Church triumphant in heaven?

I will not get into silly arguments about things we cannot truly answer. But I know what I can read in the Holy Scriptures and this is my authority. Jesus prophesied in parables that there would be goats and wolves in sheep's clothing among the sheep down here on earth, and weeds among the wheat (and surely at the highest levels of organizational structure). I will never fully trust church leaders on earth because of this and instead will always look to what Jesus and the Apostles taught. Revisionism came on very strong and very soon after the Apostles left this earth, with clericalism, sacramentalism, and superstition--- the paganistic elevation of things, people, and offices.

Where and when any church differs in doctrine or tradition from the scriptures, I will always choose the Word of God over the words of men.

And praying to those who have gone on to be with the Lord is NEVER recommended, nor do we have any example of believers doing this in the New Testament. Thus I will trust that, at the very least, God is not encouraging this practice. I can always pray to the Lord Jesus, our only true Mediator, who is sitting on His throne beside the Father. I have full access "to the throne of grace." There is no need whatsoever for any other person in-between.

Put not your trust in rulers, nor in any child of earth, for there is no help in them.
Happy are they who have the God of Jacob for their help! Whose hope is in the LORD their God. (Psalm 146:2, 4)

See also Jesus versus clericalism: Mark 10:42-44; Matthew 23:1-12

prodromos · Nov 23, 2018

Dr Bruce Atkinson said:
Not once is it recommended (and certainly not commanded) in Holy Writ to seek prayers from those who have gone on. Not once. Wonder why....

Probably because there weren't many dead saints when the New Testament was written.

There certainly are lots of other commands and recommendations in the scriptures.

Much of what Paul writes is to correct where they were going off the rails. He doesn't spend much time on what they are doing right.

Asking those who have died (even if they are alive in heaven) for anything is in fact praying TO them.

Asking anyone for anything is in fact praying to them. That is what "pray" means.

There is nothing we can ask them for that Jesus cannot do Himself with total authority to answer. So just pray to HIM!

You seem to have missed the part about there being love between all members of Christ's body. Asking others to pray for our needs gives them opportunities to show love towards us and vice versa.

Erik Nelson · Nov 23, 2018

Dr Bruce Atkinson said:
I will not get into silly arguments about things we cannot truly answer. But I know what I can read in the Holy Scriptures and this is my authority. Jesus prophesied in parables that there would be goats and wolves in sheep's clothing among the sheep down here on earth, and weeds among the wheat (and surely at the highest levels of organizational structure). I will never fully trust church leaders on earth because of this and instead will always look to what Jesus and the Apostles taught. Revisionism came on very strong and very soon after the Apostles left this earth, with clericalism, sacramentalism, and superstition--- the paganistic elevation of things, people, and offices.

Where and when any church differs in doctrine or tradition from the scriptures, I will always choose the Word of God over the words of men.

And praying to those who have gone on to be with the Lord is NEVER recommended, nor do we have any example of believers doing this in the New Testament. Thus I will trust that, at the very least, God is not encouraging this practice. I can always pray to the Lord Jesus, our only true Mediator, who is sitting on His throne beside the Father. I have full access "to the throne of grace." There is no need whatsoever for any other person in-between.

Put not your trust in rulers, nor in any child of earth, for there is no help in them.
Happy are they who have the God of Jacob for their help! Whose hope is in the LORD their God. (Psalm 146:2, 4)

See also Jesus versus clericalism: Mark 10:42-44; Matthew 23:1-12

so we can't be sure it is bad, either?

however righteously indignant you get when accusing EO & RCC for petitioning Saints in heaven to pray for them...

however bad it is for them to utter prayers involving the words...

God the father
Jesus Christ the son and word
saint Linus, saint Ignatius, saint Polycarp, saint Irenaeus, saint Tertullian...

however worked up we get about that... When All that comes out of their mouths is purely Holy Christian names...

we ought to be commensurately MORE so about Black Sabbath, Judas priest, led zeppelin stairway to heaven played backwards, etc.

yes?

Erik Nelson · Nov 23, 2018

prodromos said:
Probably because there weren't many dead saints when the New Testament was written.

Much of what Paul writes is to correct where they were going off the rails. He doesn't spend much time on what they are doing right.

Asking anyone for anything is in fact praying to them. That is what "pray" means.

You seem to have missed the part about there being love between all members of Christ's body. Asking others to pray for our needs gives them opportunities to show love towards us and vice versa.

live and let live?

if protestants want to pray directly to God it is technically alright...

not sure it warrants being divisive if others want to remember the historical human saints in the process

isn't unity orthodoxy? Be one even as the Son and the Father are?

Dr Bruce Atkinson · Nov 23, 2018

prodromos said:
Probably because there weren't many dead saints when the New Testament was written.

Much of what Paul writes is to correct where they were going off the rails. He doesn't spend much time on what they are doing right.

Asking anyone for anything is in fact praying to them. That is what "pray" means.

You seem to have missed the part about there being love between all members of Christ's body. Asking others to pray for our needs gives them opportunities to show love towards us and vice versa.

Prodromos,
Your "probably" says it all. Your logic is of men, not God. It is not about love, except for love of God, it is about what God tells us to do and does not tell us to do.
You really don't have a clue in terms of the earliest Church (we get that information only from the NT scriptures). We do not have any recommendations in the OT to pray to the prophets, nor in the NT to interact with believers who have died. They had St. Stephen and a number of other early martyrs. But neither Paul nor Peter ever mentions our being able to have contact with them, and never suggests to pray to them (not when the Lord Jesus Himself is available at the right hand of the Father). You do not seem to understand that to pray to anyone other than God is a disrespectful put down to Him. When we have God, why even consider praying to others? On earth, with church and family members, it is different; we are told to pray for each other and to ask for prayers. We are all in the same earthly boat. IF IT WERE IMPORTANT TO PRAY TO THOSE ALREADY GONE, WE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD TO DO SO. That is the bottom line.

prodromos · Nov 23, 2018

Dr Bruce, you follow your conscience and I will follow mine. I have witnessed many miracles from God through the prayers of His Saints and heard testimony of hundreds more. As it is not part of your experience I can understand why you take the position you do but as it does not correspond to my experience and the consistent experience of the Church for nearly two millennia, all I can do is shake my head sadly at your very limited experience of the love between all members of Christ's body and the abundant Grace which God pours out in response.

concretecamper · Nov 23, 2018

Dr Bruce Atkinson said:
Not once is it recommended (and certainly not commanded) in Holy Writ to seek prayers from those who have gone on. Not once. Wonder why....

In order to use this argument, you must first establish that Holy Scripture contains 100% of Divne Revelation. A good place to start is show me where scripture says it.

Dr Bruce Atkinson · Nov 23, 2018

prodromos said:
Dr Bruce, you follow your conscience and I will follow mine. I have witnessed many miracles from God through the prayers of His Saints and heard testimony of hundreds more. As it is not part of your experience I can understand why you take the position you do but as it does not correspond to my experience and the consistent experience of the Church for nearly two millennia, all I can do is shake my head sadly at your very limited experience of the love between all members of Christ's body and the abundant Grace which God pours out in response.

You obviously do not understand the Reformed view. You need not be sad. I am in no way less blessed or more limited by the fact that I can and do pray directly to the Father and Jesus for everything. I too have witnessed many miracles from God through the prayers made directly to Him. God does not need other mediators in order to do His gracious work in our behalf, as if His hand was too short to save... or protect us or heal us or guide us. If you need to have saints speak on your behalf because your faith in Christ is weak, then so be it.

I will regard this issue as a Romans 14 issue and not condemn your practice. But for me, it is a meaningless waste of time. I walk with Jesus constantly and since I am always in His Presence, it seems absurd to turn to someone else (who may not even be able to hear me, who may be asleep in the Lord) and ask them to speak to the Lord for me. It would be disrespectful for me to do so... when He is right there for me to talk to.

In Christ,
Bruce

prodromos · Nov 23, 2018

Dr Bruce Atkinson said:
You obviously do not understand the Reformed view. You need not be sad. I am in no way less blessed or more limited by the fact that I can and do pray directly to the Father and Jesus for everything.

How would you know, since you've never experienced the love of the Saints?

I too have witnessed many miracles from God through the prayers made directly to Him. God does not need other mediators in order to do His gracious work in our behalf, as if His hand was too short to save... or protect us or heal us or guide us.

Something I have never argued. A shame you feel the need to argue a strawman.

If you need to have saints speak on your behalf because your faith in Christ is weak, then so be it.

I enjoy abundant blessings through the prayers of the Saints. Why do you equate that with weak faith?

II wil regard this issue as a Romans 14 issue and not condemn your practice. But for me, it is a meaningless waste of time. I walk with Jesus constantly and since I am always in His Presence, it seems absurd to turn to someone else (who may not even be able to hear me, who may be asleep in the Lord) and ask them to speak to the Lord for me. It would be disrespectful for me to do so... when He is right there for me to talk to.

As a father, I take great pleasure in my children supporting each other and making requests on behalf of each other. Do you really think our heavenly Father is any different in that regard?

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