Debate-For MJ's Only The rapture - what happens, and when?

gadar perets

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I could be wrong, but that is not the point that I saw being made.
You are correct. My point was that no one dies and goes directly to heaven as per the article in the OP. They are awaiting the resurrection whether they are in the grave or have their ashes spread at sea or whatever.
 
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Heber Book List

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You are correct. My point was that no one dies and goes directly to heaven as per the article in the OP. They are awaiting the resurrection whether they are in the grave or have their ashes spread at sea or whatever.

I think the writer should have made clear that it is what most people think happens.

The truth is there is no scripture that categorically / directly supports either view.

So, we, starting from nothing as far as the Bible is concerned - how does his argument stand up in the following text.
 
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gadar perets

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I think the writer should have made clear that it is what most people think happens.
That is what he thinks as well which is why he teaches that many members of the bride are currently in heaven.

"For the last 2000 years all true believers who have died have gone up into Heaven. Within that Body of believers in Heaven are those who are the members of Yeshua’s mystery Bride, waiting for the fullness of Yeshua’s Bridal party to be completed, so that the promised Marriage of the Lamb and His Bride can take place."​

So, we, starting from nothing as far as the Bible is concerned - how does his argument stand up in the following text.
Almost the entire article is false except for the fact that he seems to be teaching there is no rapture of "Yeshua's Bride". Here is one statement I can agree with;

"There is no Pre or Mid or Post Trib Rapture of Yeshua’s remnant Bride, as so many are teaching. Almost all the different theories presented today about the Rapture of Yeshua’s Bride are using many Scriptures about the Shofar call of God to help explain their theories about Rapture. But the real Truth is that these Shofar Scriptures are all about the Lord Yeshua’s return; and not about the Rapture of Yeshua’s Bride!"
It is not clear whether or not he believes there is no rapture at all or just no rapture of the Bride. However, the fact that he proves his belief by teaching Yeshua is YHWH leads me to want to cast the article in the trash.
 
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Heber Book List

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That is what he thinks as well which is why he teaches that many members of the bride are currently in heaven.

"For the last 2000 years all true believers who have died have gone up into Heaven. Within that Body of believers in Heaven are those who are the members of Yeshua’s mystery Bride, waiting for the fullness of Yeshua’s Bridal party to be completed, so that the promised Marriage of the Lamb and His Bride can take place."​


Almost the entire article is false except for the fact that he seems to be teaching there is no rapture of "Yeshua's Bride". Here is one statement I can agree with;

"There is no Pre or Mid or Post Trib Rapture of Yeshua’s remnant Bride, as so many are teaching. Almost all the different theories presented today about the Rapture of Yeshua’s Bride are using many Scriptures about the Shofar call of God to help explain their theories about Rapture. But the real Truth is that these Shofar Scriptures are all about the Lord Yeshua’s return; and not about the Rapture of Yeshua’s Bride!"
It is not clear whether or not he believes there is no rapture at all or just no rapture of the Bride. However, the fact that he proves his belief by teaching Yeshua is YHWH leads me to want to cast the article in the trash.

I take it your last sentence is why you can't debate the article.
 
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Heber Book List

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I have no problem debating the article. Select a portion you want me to address.

It is not clear whether or not he believes there is no rapture at all or just no rapture of the Bride. However, the fact that he proves his belief by teaching Yeshua is YHWH leads me to want to cast the article in the trash.
 
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gadar perets

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It is not clear whether or not he believes there is no rapture at all or just no rapture of the Bride. However, the fact that he proves his belief by teaching Yeshua is YHWH leads me to want to cast the article in the trash.
I have no idea what you want me to do. I asked you to give me something in the article you want me to address, but you quote my own comment back to me. I would love to comment on my last sentence, but, as a non-trinitarian, forum rules forbid me to do so. The author's own words make it clear that he does not believe in the rapture of the Bride, but his lack of a clear teaching on the rapture in general leads us to wonder what he believes. BTW, I reject any belief in a rapture of living saints whether they are the Bride or not.
 
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Dave-W

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You are correct. My point was that no one dies and goes directly to heaven as per the article in the OP. They are awaiting the resurrection whether they are in the grave or have their ashes spread at sea or whatever.
That is an error believed by Seventh Day Adventists. It demonstrates a lack of understanding that the eternal realm is not tied to our timeline. One could have died thousands of years ago and another die a thousand years in the future and both immediately arrive in eternity simultaneously with no “soul sleep.”
 
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Dave-W

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BTW, I reject any belief in a rapture of living saints whether they are the Bride or not.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up [greek = rapture] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

That verse is where we get the term.
 
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I have no idea what you want me to do. I asked you to give me something in the article you want me to address, but you quote my own comment back to me. I would love to comment on my last sentence, but, as a non-trinitarian, forum rules forbid me to do so. The author's own words make it clear that he does not believe in the rapture of the Bride, but his lack of a clear teaching on the rapture in general leads us to wonder what he believes. BTW, I reject any belief in a rapture of living saints whether they are the Bride or not.

Because if I quoted the place in the article you would have given the same answer again and I would have asked what you meant.

Define 'saint'?
 
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gadar perets

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Because if I quoted the place in the article you would have given the same answer again and I would have asked what you meant.

Define 'saint'/
If you are referring to my use of "saints" in post #15, then it refers to believers in Messiah Yeshua.
 
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gadar perets

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That is an error believed by Seventh Day Adventists. It demonstrates a lack of understanding that the eternal realm is not tied to our timeline. One could have died thousands of years ago and another die a thousand years in the future and both immediately arrive in eternity simultaneously with no “soul sleep.”
Yes, they arrive there at the same time when they are resurrected from the dead.
 
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If you really meant to write "what" instead of "who", then he is a man who was brought into existence by YHWH, not by an earthly father.

And who took up his G_dliness when he rose from the dead to return to God?
 
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Dave-W

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Yes, they arrive there at the same time when they are resurrected from the dead.
No, you are tying the soul/spirit to our same time constraints. At death, that doesn’t apply. The soul/spirit goes immediately into eternity.
 
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gadar perets

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1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up [greek = rapture] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

That verse is where we get the term.
The Greek word for "caught up" is "harpadzo", not "rapture", and it means "to seize".

The Greek word for "then" is "epeita" also meaning afterward or next. The Greek word "tote" means; then, at that time. "Tote" would have been more appropriate if the living were caught up at the same time as the dead or even shortly after. However, "epeita" was used instead. This word was also used in Galatians 1:18 meaning three years later; in Galatians 2:1 meaning fourteen years later; and in James 4:14 meaning an indefinite number of years later.

The proper understanding of this verse, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, is that Yeshua will come to resurrect the dead when the seventh trumpet is blown (Revelation 11:15). This resurrection of the saints is pictured in Revelation 12:5. Those that are "alive and remain" are pictured in Revelation 12:17. They are eventually killed by the beast and resurrected at some point prior to Armageddon which takes place years later. Then Yeshua will come with all the saints to set up the Kingdom of YHWH.
 
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Dave-W

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The Greek word for "caught up" is "harpadzo", not "rapture", and it means "to seize".
Ok. Serves me right for posting on theological topics before pouring my first cup of coffee. :(

It was not the Greek; it was the Latin Vulgate that had the word “raptura” there for seized.
 
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