Is the Rapture Deception?

BobRyan said:

Not in the Bible.

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Absolutely in the Scriptures.
100%
The just do not resurrect at the same time.

ewq1938 said:

Scripture does not confirm this view. There is one time of resurrection for the righteous, and one time for the unrighteous.

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Wrong.
Absolutely impossible.
Do you believe in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth?

ItIsFinished! said in post #282:

The OT saints and tribulation saints resurrect before the Millenial reign.

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Note that they will resurrect at the same time as the rest of the Church of all times. For the "first resurrection" (Revelation 20:4-6) will be the physical resurrection of all Christians (of all times) at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient Christian (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the Millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Also, regarding the OT saints, note that they are now already part of the Church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that after Jesus resurrected, He descended into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all of the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

Also regarding the Tribulation saints, note that Jesus Christ spoke specifically of His "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before He spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future Tribulation, by which time the Church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the Tribulation will be the Church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and there are no believers in Jesus Christ outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the Church who will be in the Tribulation could include most of the Christians alive today, whether Jews or Gentiles, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to Christians (Matthew 24:3-4,9), and in Jesus Christ's mind all Christians of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to Christians (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the mistaken pre-tribulation-rapture view admits, for example, that John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to the Church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation-rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to the Church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Biblical Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, those (not in hiding) who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, for some Christians' love for Him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that He is letting them and their little ones suffer in the Tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

ItIsFinished! said in post #283:

During the rapture Christ doesn't come to earth.

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Note that nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4 says or requires that Jesus Christ will not at that same coming subsequently descend to the earth on a white horse, as in Revelation 19:7-21. And there is no explicit descent to the earth, or a white horse, in Matthew 24:30 either. But it is still the same, future, Second Coming of Jesus Christ as in Revelation 19:7-21. And even in Revelation 19:7-21 there is no explicit descent to the earth, as in Zechariah 14:3-21, even though Revelation 19:7-21 is the same Second Coming as Zechariah 14:3-21, which has no explicit white horse.

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ItIsFinished! said in post #287:

. . . they all will resurrect , except not at the same time.
Different stages.
When they die does affect when they will resurrect.

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The three stages of a harvest are firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, which can typify three physical resurrections: First, the past, firstfruits physical resurrection of Jesus Christ only (1 Corinthians 15:20,23, Luke 24:39). Second, the future physical resurrection of the entire Church (of all times) at Jesus' Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Romans 8:23-25), which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31), and right before the Millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And then, third, the physical resurrection of everyone else (of all times) at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the Millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

BobRyan said in post #286:

. . . in John 14:1-3 Jesus said He will "come again" = second coming, and the purpose is to receive the saints to Himself -- to take them to the place He has prepared for them in heaven - in His Father's house.

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Do you mean that the rapture will take Christians all the way into the third heaven (of 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that nothing in the Bible requires that Christians will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus Christ at His future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the Church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the Church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the Church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to physically reign on the earth with Him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) the obedient part of the Church will then live on a New Earth, as in a new surface for the earth, with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

But you are right that John 14:1-2 is not pre-trib, for there is no pre-tribulation-rapture idea in John 14:2-3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming-again of Jesus Christ (His future, Second Coming), and then a receiving of the Church unto Himself. Also, the pre-tribulation-rapture view cannot (as is sometimes done) claim that the rapture is referred to only by the apostle Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons that Jesus Christ left the earth at the end of His first coming was to prepare a place for the Church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, which is God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the Church indicates that He is not done with the Church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the Church will be received to Jesus where He will be first at His Second Coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before He lands on the earth at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which will not occur until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The Church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5), on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-3), as in a new surface for the earth, sometime after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the Millennium, the physically resurrected Church will rule on the present earth with the returned Jesus Christ for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the Church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). And the souls of obedient people in the Church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus Christ when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

Not sure about a deception but here is a great picture of a rupture:

ewq1938 said:

Yes but lets stay on topic regarding the rapture.

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Well if you believe in a 1,000 year millenial reign of Christ then you have to believe in different stages of resurrection of the just , because people will be born during that time and many will receive Christ as Saviour and also die during that time.
There is only one resurrection for the unjust , and only one for the just , but in different stages.
Do you agree with this?

food4thought said in post #77:

. . . Populating the Millennial Kingdom: From many passages in the Old Testament, we understand that sinners will inhabit the millennial kingdom. The kingdom is ushered in at the return of Jesus (Matthew 19:28; Matthew 25:31; Revelation 20:4). The sinners who enter the kingdom are believers who survive the Tribulation and produce offspring who eventually reject the rule of Christ (Revelation 20:7-9). If the Rapture is after the Tribulation, then where do these people in unglorified bodies come from?

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Those who will populate the future Millennium, in the sense of having offspring during it, will be the non-Christians who will be "left" alive in their mortal bodies by Jesus Christ at His future, Second Coming (Matthew 24:39b-40, Zechariah 14:16-19). The Millennium could also be populated by the elect Jews who will become Christians at the Second Coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14). For they could enter the Millennium (Zechariah 14:5-21) while still in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of Christians into immortal physical bodies at the Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) could be only for those who had become Christians before the Second Coming.

food4thought said in post #77:

If all believers are caught up to meet Christ in the air at the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and are changed (1 Corinthians 15:52) and only believers enter the kingdom (Matthew 25:34 cf. Matthew 25:46), whence the people producing children in the millennium (Isaiah 65:20)?

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Regarding Matthew 25:34,46, which is the sheep and goat judgment, note that Matthew 25:31 does not mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a does not mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to His Second Coming, at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will not occur until after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the nations will be finally-judged by their works at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, which will occur before the Millennium, He will finally-judge only those in the Church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when non-Christians of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent, at the Great White Throne Judgment, into the everlasting suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the Second Coming only the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become Christians during the future Millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient Christians inheriting the Kingdom of God the Father in New Jerusalem, the Father's house, on the future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2), as in a new surface for the earth.

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Also, regarding your reference to Isaiah 65:20, it could refer to a new race of humans who will be created by God along with the future, New Earth (Isaiah 65:17), as in a new surface for the earth, but who will fall into sin and mortality like Adam and Eve did. But even as mortals, they could live about 900 years, like Adam and generations after him lived that long (Genesis 5:5-27). So if one of them dies at 100, it will be like he died in his youth (Isaiah 65:20b).

If Isaiah 65:20 does refer to the future, New Earth, it cannot refer to any humans born on our present earth. For by the time that the New Earth is created (Revelation 21:1), all humans born on our present earth who became Christians and were obedient will have been resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal physical bodies (Revelation 21:4; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Romans 8:23-25). And all who did not become Christians or who were disobedient will have been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 21:8, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Isaiah 66:22,24, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

The physically resurrected, immortal Christians could minister to the new race of fallen, mortal humans of Isaiah 65:20 in the same way that angels now minister to us (Hebrews 1:14). For resurrected, immortal Christians will be equal to the angels (Luke 20:36).

food4thought said in post #77:

If the Rapture occurs at the Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation (some sort of glorified "U-turn in the sky") . . .

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Note that there will be no "U-turn" except for those in the Church who will be living in Jerusalem at the time of the rapture (see the "popping" part of post #280 above), just as there will be no pre-tribulation, "bungee-jump" whereby the Lord descends from the third heaven to the first heaven (the atmosphere of the earth), as in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, only to immediately snap back up into the third heaven.

food4thought said in post #77:

[Re: OT prophecies of Christ's coming]

How do we reconcile these tensions in the Old Testament passages? We understand that they describe different Comings of our Lord: to suffer and die at His first coming, but to rule supreme at His Second Coming.

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There was a contrast between the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's coming, with some of them showing Him coming to be meekly crucified for our sins (Isaiah 53, Psalms 22), and others showing Him physically descending from heaven to wage war and to physically reign over the earth (Zechariah 14, Micah 4:1-4). But note that nothing in the Old or New Testament requires a future (to us), pre-tribulation coming of Christ versus only a post-tribulation coming of Christ (Matthew 24:29-31). For all of the as-yet-unfulfilled Old and New Testament prophecies regarding Christ's coming will be fulfilled at or sometime after His post-tribulation coming.

Dave L said in post #80:

Since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, it leaves only saints in glorified bodies for Satan to rally against the rest of the saints when loosed.

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1 Corinthians 15:50 refers to people in mortal/corruptible, flesh and blood bodies, as opposed to immortal/incorruptible, resurrection "flesh and bone" bodies (possibly without blood as we know it), like Jesus Christ was resurrected into on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).

1 Corinthians 15:50 means that people in mortal bodies will not inherit the eternal (as opposed to the preceding, Millennial) aspect of the Kingdom of God, which will be on the New Earth (as in a new surface for the earth), in the descended New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:1 to 22:15), after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 22:15).

1 Corinthians 15:50 does not require that no people in mortal bodies will inherit the Millennial aspect of the Kingdom, which will be on the present earth. For the elect Jews who will not become Christians until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14) could inherit the Millennial aspect of the Kingdom (Zechariah 14:5-21, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of Christians into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) could be experienced only by those who had become Christians before the Second Coming.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:50 does not require that no people in mortal bodies will even enter the Millennial aspect of the Kingdom, that is, without inheriting it. For just as people can enter someone's house, and stay there for awhile, without inheriting that house, so the people left alive at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) who will not become Christians at that time will enter the Millennial aspect of the Kingdom in their mortal bodies, without inheriting the Kingdom. Instead, they will be its forced subjects (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3), ruled over with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2).

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:50 does not require that no people in mortal bodies can even enter the third-heaven aspect of the Kingdom, that is, without inheriting it. For at the time of Revelation 11:11-12, at one point during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, God's Two Witnesses will be in resuscitated mortal bodies, like, for example, the resuscitated mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). For the resurrection of Christians into immortal physical bodies will not occur until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will not occur until after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And when Revelation 11:12 shows that God's Two Witnesses will ascend into the third heaven in their resuscitated mortal bodies, it does not say that they will inherit the third heaven, just as when the apostle Paul said that he at one point during his lifetime could have been taken into the third heaven in his mortal body (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), he does not say that he inherited the third heaven. And just as when Enoch and Elijah were taken into the third heaven in their mortal bodies (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11), it does not say that they inherited the third heaven.

Chris V++ said in post #83:

and also how does it mesh with the day of the Lord
' But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.'

Why will the Earth be destroyed and he elements melt with fervent heat if the Christians are not to be raptured?

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The earth (its surface) won't be destroyed and the elements melt with fervent heat until about 1,000 years after Christians are raptured.

That is, regarding 2 Peter 3:10-13, in the Day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the first heaven: the sky/atmosphere) and the earth (its surface) at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1), onto which the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the third heaven (Revelation 21:2-3).

But the Day of the Lord will not immediately bring the destruction of the earth's atmosphere and surface. For the Day of the Lord will begin at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after His Second Coming, He will establish His Kingdom physically on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least seven years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11). All of these events, from Jesus' Second Coming to the Great White Throne Judgment, will be part of the Day of the Lord. For it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8, Psalms 90:4).

Chris V++ said in post #83:

If we are the wheat and thus not weeded out, then why is there a 'day of the Lord?' This seems like another contradiction.

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Regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30,36-43), in Matthew 13:38 the good seed are elect people, of whatever nationality, and the tares are nonelect people, of whatever nationality. Nonelect people are the human children of Satan, who cannot ever believe in Jesus Christ (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 will not (as is sometimes claimed) occur at Jesus' future, Second Coming, but will occur at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when non-Christians of all times will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43 the Kingdom of God the Father is after the Great White Throne Judgment, when a New Earth, as in a new surface for the earth, will be created and God the Father will descend from heaven in His literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the Church on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

The "rapture", as a doctrine (i.e. that Christians, or only the "best" Christians, will be beamed directly into heaven by Jesus to escape the Really Bad Stuff™), is a 19th century fiction made popular through clever marketing and poorly written fiction.

-CryptoLutheran

Devin P said:

All throughout the prophets, we have them warning God's children to hide and keep themselves shut up until the trouble passes.

Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Isa 24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Isa 24:2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
Isa 24:3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
Isa 24:4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
Isa 24:13 When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is
done.

(Basically it's saying that the world will have few people left in it, because of the great destruction God will cause to be upon the earth in the last days, because of their transgressions. Really read this entire chapter, because all of it applies to what I'm talking about, I just didn't want to link an entire chapter in here)

I feel that the idea of the rapture, is a deception given to us by the enemy, because when the world is destroyed due to our transgressions and unholiness, those believing in and waiting on the rapture will not know what's going on. They would've been expecting to be taken out before these things happen, and then their faith will fail them, because they weren't prepared to have to go through this time of trouble. We even have the words of our Savior describing that time. His children are wheat, and the devil's children are tares.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:40 Just as weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at end of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes others to sin and those who practice lawlessness
Mat 13:42 and they will throw them into a blazing furnace. In that place there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 THEN the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father's kingdom. Let the person who has ears listen!”

Mat 13:49 That is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out, cull out the evil people FROM AMONG the righteous ones,
Mat 13:50 and will throw them into a blazing furnace. In that place there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Here we see Jesus saying that His chosen, will still be on earth. That the unrighteous will be taken from among them. So we see that, for example, the verse where two will be in a field, one taken the other left, you want to be the one that is left. You don't want to be taken, because to be taken, means you're not a wheat. Because as Matt 13:30 says, tares will be taken first, not wheat.

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I personally could not tell the difference between the scriptures about the "Rapture" from the ones about the Second Coming until I read a particular near death experience accounts. After that.... I took the idea much more seriously.

He paused as though the joy of that thought had overwhelmed him for the moment.

"My Father assures me that the time is yet a little while, but very little. Soon he will call those already in paradise to surround me as we descend from this third heaven to the first heaven around the Earth. The souls of all my saints will be instantly clothed in their new resurrection bodies, as will the living saints on Earth who rise to us in the glory cloud! At the sounding trumpet they all receive new bodies and rise to meet us in the air. We return as my body to my throne room with the Father. Now do you understand why I called this place a temporary abiding place? Do you grasp what it will mean to be one with me and the Father in your incorruptible bodies? My book states that I assumed mankind's sin so you "might be made the righteousness of God' in me!"

I can clearly recall how Jesus' voice paused at this moment. He was savoring an anticipation too intense and private to be revealed. Was he pre-living that moment at which he would enjoy the victory which his Father would give him as the eternal reward for his own long-suffering? His own sting of death would be swallowed up, and he would be the omniscient Head of a completed and compliant body for whom he had shed his blood on a terrible cross. He would reign as KING of the Jews after these days of grace. Then his thoughts returned to me.

"My son, when that time has come, my Father will call to me. The applause of the heavenly hosts will be deafening; they too have been awaiting that day, ever since they announced my birth to the shepherds at Bethlehem so long ago. Scoffers will gaze with fear and wonder as my angelic hosts watch me fulfill my promise to my earthly body of believers at my soon return to Earth." (Dr. Richard Eby, near-death .com

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On the other hand I suspect that being Raptured.... would have very, very little to do with studying the topic a great deal..... and far, far, far, far more with whether or not we really try to repent daily and truly live our lives to serve our Messiah.

ewq1938 said in post #309:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!

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2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation coming of Jesus Christ and rapture (gathering together) of the Church, which will not occur until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-21). But the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 was not so much countering pre-tribulation rapturism as he was countering full preterism. Full preterism mistakenly says that the Day of the Lord (Christ) is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2), in the sense of already present, that the Second Coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the Church is already a present reality (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism because it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some Christians (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

ewq1938 said in post #312:

[Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8]

It wasn't about Preterism as being at hand means close.

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Note that in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 the original Greek word (eggus: G1451) translated as "at hand" can also mean "nigh" in the sense of already here, as in Romans 10:8.

Also, full preterism sometimes claims that Christians are each individually resurrected and caught up into heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) when they die. But this is not the case. For 1 Thessalonians 4:17 will include "we which are alive and remain", as well as "them", meaning as well as all dead Christians of all times, who will all be physically resurrected at the same time, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), at the single moment that the last trumpet will sound (1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Matthew 24:31), which will not be until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

So just as even Jesus Christ Himself was not resurrected at the moment that He died, but was resurrected on the third day after He died (1 Corinthians 15:4), so Christians are not resurrected at the moment that they die, but must wait until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming to be resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Jesus' Second Coming could occur near the start of the third, 1,000-year period (or "day": 2 Peter 3:8) after Jesus' first coming, in the first century AD. The first 1,000-year period could have been the years 1 to 1000 AD, the second 1,000-year period could have been the years 1001 to 2000 AD, and the third 1,000-year period could be the years 2001 to 3000 AD.

ewq1938 said in post #312:

The thief in the night is what they misunderstood...thinking Christ could come at any time and surprise them like a thief does.

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Note that full preterism was a problem even at the time of Paul (2 Timothy 2:18).

Also, Paul had already explained in 1 Thessalonians 5:4 that the Second Coming would not come as a thief to obedient Christians. That is why he makes no mention of the thief principle in 2 Thessalonians.

ewq1938 said in post #312:

Paul had to explain that Christ's return can't come as a thief in the night to Christians because there are things that must happen first before Christ can return.

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But note that even some Christians will be surprised by the Second Coming because they stopped "watching" (compare the principle of Revelation 3:3). See also the "watching" part of post #250 above.