Praying to Saints

Philip_B · May 10, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
Augustine is recognised as a saint. The question was asked, "How can we justify the elevation of these men to sainthood?"

I've shown that the basic criteria, recognition of serving the world as antithetical to serving God , is not even met by them.

The whole idea if praying to them for things in their domain of influence smacks of paganism. Pray to Astarte for success in love, Ares for victory in war, Chrysostom for forgiveness of sins.

Do you know why sins need to be forgiven? Are they kinda like brownie points, Eagle scout badges?

No one can forgive sins but God alone. Yes, in answer to the question, for all have sinned and are falling short of the glory of God. I have no concept of sins being like brownie points (or even poo emoticons) nor Eagle scout badges.

No human being would be justified without the act of Christ and the response of faith. However I do feel that Augustine had a better view of forgiveness and reconciliation than the Donatists, even though they perhaps stood on a higher moral ground.

I don't see what this has to do with praying in and with the community of faith across the planet and across the ages. We are in the final analysis one body in Christ.

Wordkeeper · May 11, 2018

Philip_B said:
No one can forgive sins but God alone. Yes, in answer to the question, for all have sinned and are falling short of the glory of God. I have no concept of sins being like brownie points (or even poo emoticons) nor Eagle scout badges.

No human being would be justified without the act of Christ and the response of faith. However I do feel that Augustine had a better view of forgiveness and reconciliation than the Donatists, even though they perhaps stood on a higher moral ground.

I don't see what this has to do with praying in and with the community of faith across the planet and across the ages. We are in the final analysis one body in Christ.

Paul wanted to be among the first to be resurrected, the ex anastasis. I think it was related to his love for IsraeI.

He tried very hard to be cleansed of all unrighteousness, because he wanted to be IN Christ, so that he could share in Christ's ministry. This is kind of mind boggling, to be wanting to know Christ and His resurrection and wanting to share in doing what remained of His work.

However, God told him His grace was sufficient. Sufficient to be regarded as an unblemished sacrifice? Again, mind-boggling.

Now how is grace received?

According to the text, by WANTING to be cleansed of all unrighteousness!

You should read Wright on 2 Corinthians 5:21.

2 Corinthians 5
21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

It's basically Point 3 of the framework I work with:

All humanity is made part of a project to complete creation in partnership with God, made possible because Christ fixed the problem which halted the above plan.

Philip_B · May 11, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
All humanity is made part of a project to complete creation in partnership with God, made possible because Christ fixed the problem which halted the above plan.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us.

It is entirely in keeping with the catholic nature of the mission of Jesus as expressed in the fourth Gospel.

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Wordkeeper · May 11, 2018

Philip_B said:
2 Corinthians 5:19
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us.

It is entirely in keeping with the catholic nature of the mission of Jesus as expressed in the fourth Gospel.

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Wright says "sin" is a hebraism for sin offering. In both OT and NT, sin is often used for representing the sin offering.

Dikaiosune theou is not the Faith of God, but God's covenantal faithfulness. Again Wright. In other words, God promised to solve the problem of the Fall, unconditionally. His sense of justice obliged Him to keep His word.

Wright says ALL Christians aren't considered to be ambassadors, but only those IN Christ, in this case, specifically, the Apostles, him, Paul. His appeal to the Corinthians is for them to be reconciled to God. That which marks him out to be an ambassador, IN Christ, the injuries he has suffered, are also the means by which God solves the aforementioned problems.

You can download the PDF "On becoming the righteousness of God", by Wright, for the article in glorious prose.

prodromos · May 11, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
Quote
Anotherdoctrine of Augustine's which was at least partly novel was his particular teaching on original sin.

Specifically, he taught that all humans have sinned in Adam. And he did this on the basis of his Latin translation (he knew little Greek) of the last part of Romans 5:12, which read in quo. He understood in quo as meaning "in whom", i.e. in Adam. And indeed it has become a commonplace of theology that all humans, or unredeemed humans, are "in Adam", by analogy with how Christians are "in Christ".

The problem with this is that the Latin in quo is a misleading translation of the Greek here, ef' ho. The Greek does not mean "in whom". Literally it can be translated "on whom" or "on which", but according to Cranfield "By far the most probable explanation" is that it means "because", as in RSV, NIV etc (KJV "for that" probably means the same).

In fact Augustine's translation was not wrong, for in quo probably can mean "because". But it was a misleading translation, because its more basic meaning, "in whom", is one which cannot be the real meaning of the Greek.

There is thus no proper biblical justification for the teaching that all people sinned "in Adam", or even as far as I know that anyone is in any sense to be counted as "in Adam". This idea came into theology from Augustine's misunderstanding of a misleading translation.

This shows the importance of theologians getting a good grasp of the original biblical languages, and not relying on translations.

Ben Witherington: Origen, and the Nature of God's Sovereignty

Quote
Some at least of this is due to the problematic exegetical base for original sin, derived from St Augustine, whom some suspect of never having entirely thrown off the Manichaeism he once professed.

Augustine took Paul’s phrase “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” (Rom 5:12) following the Vulgate “in quo omnes peccaverunt” to mean “in whom [Adam] all sinned”. This became the standard Western tradition, reiterated at Trent, which repeats the appeal to this verse (Session 5, Decree Concerning Original Sin, ¶2). The ninth article stands firmly in this Augustinian tradition: sin is fundamentally hereditary, and comes down to us like spiritual DNA from Adam. This is effectively sin as a sexually transmitted disease.

That Augustinian interpretation of Paul’s “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” as meaning “in whom all sinned” makes that επι (ἐφ᾽) the most disastrous preposition in history. All modern translations agree that its proper meaning is “because.” The hereditary idea of “naturally … engendered of the offspring of Adam” is poorly rooted in this text, once the text is more appropriately translated.

The article then moves on to another Pauline idea: “so that the flesh lusteth always contrary to the spirit”, which appears to allude to Galatians 5:17. What Paul sets out as two spheres of being (even if precise interpretations are disputed, this much is largely agreed) Cranmer seems to take as two components of human nature, setting up an internal dualism.

He then compounds this by conflating a reference to Romans 8:6-7 with the argument of Romans 7. He takes from the first the phrase phronema sarkos (τὸ γὰρ φρόνημα τῆς σαρκὸς θάνατος – the mindset of the flesh is death) and translates “the lust of the flesh” despite the lack of any word indicating desire (as in Gal 5:16. Then he argues that this is “is not subject to the Law of God” (i.e. cannot obey it) apparently paraphrasing from Romans 7:7. All of these might mildly be described as tendentious exegeses (although Romans 7 does rather lend itself to tendentious exegesis)!

Quite simply, original sin, in the way the article expounds it, is a textual and exegetical mess. That leaves quite a bit of work to do in rescuing its fundamental affirmation. The weight of scripture, tradition and our own honestly reflected on experience all point to a doctrine that has to say more than “all people just happen to do wrong”. Whatever else original sin might mean, it seems to me to suggest an understanding that our skewedness from God’s purposes is endemic to the human situation. And I would go so far as to claim that anything less doesn’t do justice to reality or our experience of it.

http://www.dougchaplin.uk/church/anglicanism/sin-just-how-original-is-it/

Nowhere does this say that Augustine was responsible for formulating doctrine. So it seems you are attributing to Mr Witherington, something he never claimed.

Wordkeeper · May 11, 2018

prodromos said:
Nowhere does this say that Augustine was responsible for formulating doctrine. So it seems you are attributing to Mr Witherington, something he never claimed.

Quote
It was largely through Augustine's arguments against the Pelagians that the doctrine of "original sin" was formalized into Christian orthodoxy.

https://www.theopedia.com/original-sin

prodromos · May 11, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
Quote
It was largely through Augustine's arguments against the Pelagians that the doctrine of "original sin" was formalized into Christian orthodoxy.

https://www.theopedia.com/original-sin

Rome took Augustine's arguments and used them to formalise their doctrine of original sin. Your earlier post however, implied that Augustine was tasked with formulating doctrine. That is the nonsense I was referring to.

Wordkeeper said:
Augustine was responsible for formulating doctrine, and he couldn't even understand Greek. How did he get the job?

Augustine himself never intended for what he wrote to be taken as doctrine.

Wordkeeper · May 11, 2018

prodromos said:
Rome took Augustine's arguments and used them to formalise their doctrine of original sin. Your earlier post however, implied that Augustine was tasked with formulating doctrine. That is the nonsense I was referring to.

Augustine himself never intended for what he wrote to be taken as doctrine.

Well Al Qaeda was responsible for 9/11. Islam never authorised the act. SO when I say Augustine was responsible for the disaster, I never implied any BODY was responsible for it. Stop picking nits.

Philip_B · May 11, 2018

Wordkeeper said:
Well Al Qaeda was responsible for 9/11. Islam never authorised the act. SO when I say Augustine was responsible for the disaster, I never implied any body was responsible for it. Stop picking nits.

Read my mind, not my words?

Erik Nelson · Nov 22, 2018

search bible gateway for "pray for" and you get 50 hits from the OT and NT

all of the patriarchs, prophets and apostles prayed for others, often on request

sometimes they even asked others to pray for them

so, if it is alright to ask a living Christian to pray for you...

a living member of the so called Church militant...

the only question is whether you can STILL ask for them to pray for you from heaven, as members of the so called Church triumphant?

nobody prays TO the saints, they ask saints in heaven to pray FOR them, from God's throne room in heaven

wilts43 · Nov 22, 2018

"If you die tonight?"........and if you are with God, & closer to God?.......will you suddenly stop praying for those whom you pray for today!
To Cartholic & Orthodox that would seem very odd.
When you are with God in heaven you would be perfected in love & can now offer "the prayers of a just man....that availeth much"
When with God you have no need to pray for yourself; you cannot help those in Hell; so to can only offer prayers for us here (or those being purified in Purgatory)
Rev 8:4

The Protestant "problem" with Saintly Intercession is twofold I think
(1)Sola Scriptura.
Praying for Saintly intercession is not explicit enough in scripture; so if the self-refuttingly unscriptural motto of Sola Scriptura is followed, people have a problem.

(2) I understand many Protestants believe we are dead until the final Resurrection.
Catholic/Orthodox practice is naturally consistent with their belief that we are (at death) in Heaven, Hell or being purified-for-Heaven(Purgatory)
Paradoxically enough it is the Catholics & Orthodox who believe that Christ has conquered feath & therefore the Saints are not dead.
They are alive, with God, and love us more perfectly than when with us in life.

chihwahli · Nov 22, 2018

it does not matter what stream you are from, just stop praying to people saint or not. Praying to a person of flesh, exception of Jesus who is God, means your worship that human, This is never allowed. Praying to means you expect that person to help you. So suddenly that person has become more important then God himself. Even thought some of you disagree, you keep saying you find God important, you still pray to so called saints. If you really find God the source of all love , power, properity, hope, etc, etc. Then only pray to God. God is alpha and omega, the beginning and end of everything! Not one human can do that! It is also written that no one can receive anything except if God gives!!! So how can a mortal or saint stamped man or woman of the flesh be the source of anything???? Cannot! We are ented to the root Jesus, he is the source. This is one of the many reasons praying to humans on earth or heaven is wrong.... the same applies with pope calling certain people saint. I am sorry. God calls all His children holy. The popes words do not add anything to this.

Anything that replaces God, has become your idol.
Possible idols: humans, money, items, sex, etc, etc......

53 pages and still discussing this..... if God asks you in heaven: Was I your number one?
I know for sure many failed this test.... the moment your expect saints to help you instead of God directly means you lowered God to #2, #10, #100, etc.... your faith is then into humans... not in God!

It is also written that you cannot satisfy God if you have no faith in God. The moment you pray to people for help is the moment you lost faith in God. BAM! you loose!

Faith in God means whatever the outcome at this very moment you expect God to help you. You pray to him to work trought people, trough situations, etc.... Job is a nice example of someone who keeps his faith in God..... Did job 's friends bless him with ritches and family? No it was God. God gave Job more than he had before the disaster. Job never expected anything from humans dead or alive....on earth or in heaven..... He knew everything is in God's hands......

wilts43 · Nov 22, 2018

Chiwahli,
I am afraid you do not understand the English word "Pray"
You have equated "prayer" with "worship"
Because many Protestants only address God in prayer, they often equate "prayer" with "worship" & use this error to misjudge Catholic practice.

(1)This is bad English. What does the word "PRAY" actually mean? "To pray" originally meant "ask earnestly, beg, entreat,"
pray | Origin and meaning of pray by Online Etymology Dictionary
( Because Protestants only "ask God",.... the word "pray" has come to mean (only in their minds) talking to God. So...in many Protestant minds....."PRAYER=WORSHIP"
Catholics & Orthodox keep the older meaning of "pray". And I pray you understand this! (See! it even "sounds" old).
So, for Catholics & Orthodox, Prayer is not necessarily worship!
You are imposing your epistomology or categories onto Catholics (in defiance of correct English) to misjudge them.
And.......

(2)"Worship is more than Prayer"
The essential element of OT "Worship" (all preparing for Jesus) IS SACRIFICE.
So Catholic worship is focussed on offering the cosmic, eternal sacrifice of Jesus that took place in Palestine in 34AD, but also takes place eternally, outside of time in Heaven (in Revelations) & in The Holy Mass. This is the fulfillment of Malachi 1:11.
Without this element of Sacrifice, Protestants have no biblical "worship" as such.
So their worship is reduced to prayer & praise. Good things indeed.....but it is Catholics & Orthodox, who by continually offering (& "making present" through time & space) the sacrifice of The Lamb of God, are saving the world.
This is the true worship.......designed by God.

(3) Your "loving a Saint; means less love for God" is a typical "Either/OR" protestant-false-dichotomy. (the basis of virtually all heretical argumentation)
Love is not a zero-sum (either/or) game.
If I love my wife more, I do not thereby love my children less.
And if I love Jesus's mum (or any saint) I do not love Jesus less.
(And I will never love her as much as He does)
Jesus is my brother....the best brother ever...... so He wants us to love our Mother (& other Saints) as much as we possibly can.....because He loves her (& them) perfectly. The task is to match His love for them.
"loving one another" is how we love God most of the time.
How can you think of love this zero-sum way?
Love is synergistic & fecund & thrives on multiplicity
So The Church, (the Body of Christ) exists both sides of physical death. Our relationships in Christ are unaffected by death. "Love one another" stills applies! So, if you can "ask" people to pray for you now, you can "ask" them, when they are with God (It's totally illogical not to!). But then we might say I "prayed" (asked) to St Joseph, or Mary, etc. for their help/intercession in us all praying to God. It's all about LOVE. "Love One Another"......does not stop at the grave! Why would it?
So, if you die tonight.....and if you are with God......will you stop praying for the people you now pray for.

(4)Your problem is your assumption of Sola Scriptura. Why do you believe this unbiblical, self-refuting, 16th-Century motto?

Mountainmanbob · Nov 22, 2018

dreadnought said:
I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?

They are confused.
Or deceived?
M-Bob

chihwahli · Nov 22, 2018

Beg to saints for help? Well, you keep on doing what you believe then. My source is God only, his name is Jesus.

Let's see when you come to your ends of strength, love, forgiveness, etc. Then we will talk again if human love, forgiveness, strength can truly withstand and over come this world.... looks like you are not at your end of your human wits.... your old flesh might, i say, might be stronger, so you cannot say you depend on God only.... you cannot.... Edit: .....yet... (end of discussion, looking in other thread. Not coming back)

Dr Bruce Atkinson · Nov 22, 2018

Albion said:
They think that people who have already been admitted to heaven must have more pull with God, so they enlist them as go-betweens.

I agree that this is why many do pray either to saints or ask them to pray for them. But they are wrong.

Dr Bruce Atkinson · Nov 22, 2018

dreadnought said:
I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?

The Bible nowhere indicates that Mary or other saints can hear our prayers or that she (or they) can mediate for us with God. Jesus is our only advocate and mediator in heaven (1 Timothy 2:5). If offered worship, adoration, or prayers, Mary would say the same as the angels: “Worship God only!” (see Revelation 19:10;22:9.) Mary herself sets the example for us, directing her worship, adoration, and praise to God alone: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has been mindful of the humble state of His servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me — holy is His name” (Luke 1:46-49).

"Is prayer to saints / Mary biblical?" (gotq)

Answer: The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any biblical basis.

The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholics pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and the saints as "intercessors" before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly.

This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "approach the throne of grace with confidence."

First Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and the saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father: "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Whom would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?

Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination—activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). In the one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel is not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for us. One has a strong biblical basis; the other has no biblical basis whatsoever.

God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God's throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).

Erik Nelson · Nov 22, 2018

offer again,the whole bible is full of the phrase, "pray for"

everyone asks everyone else to "pray for" them, and they especially ask the holy saints, OT & NT

it's like asking someone to put in a good word for you, like asking for a LETTER OF RECOMMENDATION to bolster your application

concretecamper · Nov 22, 2018

Dr Bruce Atkinson said:
The Bible nowhere indicates that Mary or other saints can hear our prayers or that she (or they) can mediate for us with God. Jesus is our only advocate and mediator in heaven (1 Timothy 2:5). If offered worship, adoration, or prayers, Mary would say the same as the angels: “Worship God only!” (see Revelation 19:10;22:9.) Mary herself sets the example for us, directing her worship, adoration, and praise to God alone: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has been mindful of the humble state of His servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me — holy is His name” (Luke 1:46-49).

"Is prayer to saints / Mary biblical?" (gotq)

Answer: The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any biblical basis.

The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholics pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and the saints as "intercessors" before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly.

This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "approach the throne of grace with confidence."

First Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and the saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father: "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Whom would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?

Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination—activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). In the one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel is not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for us. One has a strong biblical basis; the other has no biblical basis whatsoever.

God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God's throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).

Really, copy and paste from got questions .org. That there is a great theological powerhouse of a website

Dr Bruce Atkinson · Nov 22, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
search bible gateway for "pray for" and you get 50 hits from the OT and NT

all of the patriarchs, prophets and apostles prayed for others, often on request

sometimes they even asked others to pray for them

so, if it is alright to ask a living Christian to pray for you...

a living member of the so called Church militant...

the only question is whether you can STILL ask for them to pray for you from heaven, as members of the so called Church triumphant?

nobody prays TO the saints, they ask saints in heaven to pray FOR them, from God's throne room in heaven

Not once do the scriptures command or even suggest for believers to ask saints in heaven to pray for them. Not once is this clearly suggested... for a very good reason or two as others here have shown. There must a huge difference between asking our friends and family here to pray for us and asking saints who have gone on (who we must pray TO in order to ask) to pray for us. If it were reasonable or a good thing, God would have made sure to recommend it to us. He did not. This reality cannot be refuted.

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