Day of the Lord

iamlamad

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It doesn't say resurrected from the dead in Revelation 7.
Neither does it declare they have been martyred, nor does it say they are the spirits of dead saints. If we study 1 thes. 4 & 5 and try to fit it somewhere in John's narrative of Revelation, the only place I can put it is just before the 6th seal. I am not alone in this either.
 
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Douggg

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No they are not, they are in THE THRONE ROOM with God, see post #279.
You're right, it does not say souls in Revelation 7. I was thinking of Revelation 6:9, because it is the same saints, who also have white robes.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and t
 
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Douggg

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Neither does it declare they have been martyred, nor does it say they are the spirits of dead saints. If we study 1 thes. 4 & 5 and try to fit it somewhere in John's narrative of Revelation, the only place I can put it is just before the 6th seal. I am not alone in this either.
Them in Revelation 6, seen in the 5th seal are the same ones in Revelation 7.

It is before the sixth seal event, that they are slain for the word of God. I agree that is what the text indicates.
 
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iamlamad

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WHAT ? { Crossover....ZOOMING BY....RT goes in for the 360 DUNK BOOM !! BOOM }

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

I am putting it together for you brother, stop fighting it. I mean that statement you made, reading the text I must say leaves me bewildered !! So they are ON EARTH even though the text says they are in the THRONE ROOM of God which is described in Rev. chapters 4 and 5.

LET US LOOK AT IT IN DEPTH: Discovery mode initiated.

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

There was no Chapters and verses, we are going back and forth between events in Heaven and the goings on down on earth as per the Throne room (Rev. 4 and 5) the Seals on earth (Rev. 6) the 144,000 Jews on earth (Rev. 7) the Multitude in Heaven (Rev. 7) the Trumpet Judgments on Earth (Rev. 8) etc. etc.

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created

Rev. chapter 5

Rev. 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

I did this to let it reverberate through everyone's soul, their very fiber of being, where this is happening, this is the Bride in the throne room with God, the Elders, the Multitude that is seen in Rev. 5:9, before Jesus opens they seal they sing thou art Worthy who has REDEEMED us to OPEN THE SEALS. Worthy, worthy, worthy. Amen.

Then we see the Seals effect on the earth in Rev. ch. 6, we then see the 144,000 who I see as Israel Fleeing Judea to Petra, and God SEALING (Protecting them in Petra) and God saying HOLD BACK THE TRUMPET JUDGMENTS (hurt not the Earth, Seas or Trees) until my people are protected in Petra. The 144,000 are the DESCRIBED as coming from every tribe as in 12 x 12 x 12 which means ALL ISRAEL since 12 represents Fullness. So All the Jews who REPENT are 12 x 12 x 12. God protects them, just like is described in Rev. ch. 12 for 1260 days.

Then we see the THRONE ROOM again, the Bride is shown in full now, John has been in the THRONE ROOM the whole time !! Now he is told these in White Robes seen in Rev. 7:9-17 who are also IN THE THRONE ROOM, came out of the Great (2000 year Church Age Tribulation) Tribulation, just as John did who was there also. Its one continuous vision !! Then we see Rev. 8 and the Trumpet Judgments which brings plagues unto what ? The EARTH...SEAS...and TREES that Burn !! Hurt not the earth, sea nor trees until the 144,000 (Jews who Flee) are PROTECTED !!

Meaning they are HUMANS !! They need PROTECTING !! They are the Jews who Flee Judea.

And then as the 7th Seal was opened in Heaven there was silence (half hour) and the Angels were given 7 Trumpets, but WHY THE SILENCE for a time ? The prayers of the Saints were brought before the nostrils of God before His judgments were sent forth,

Rev. 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Everything John has seen has been from THE THRONE ROOM of God since Rev. 4:1, he is a part of the Bride, it is the Bride in Heaven in Rev. 7, no one else !! Amen.

You did well here, but you overlooked a few things. In rev. 5:6 above, Jesus just arrives back in the throne room, appearing to John as a lamb having been slain. Does this mean He LOOKED like a lamb? No, I suspect He looked much like a man beaten and whipped half to death, who died and then resurrected. The point John was making is that He was the PASSOVER lamb for Israel that year.

The point though is that Jesus had risen from the dead a few hours before this moment when He suddenly appeared in the throne room. And we know from other scriptures that when He rose, He also rose some of the elders of the Old Covenant with Him Without a doubt, they arrived in heaven before Jesus did - He had to remain behind for a while and appear to the disciples and to Mary.

I still think that the 24 elders are the very same people from the Old Covenant that Jesus rose from the dead. My point is, this does not in ANY WAY prove that the rapture has take place. You still imagine the rapture is hidden in Rev. 4:1. Throw that theory in the trash! It is bogus. It does not fit what Paul tells us in 1 Thes. 5. Paul tells us the rapture will trigger the DAY and His wrath, putting the rapture then just a moment before the 6th seal. Is it any wonder then that John SAW the church in the next chapter?

You are STILL ignoring the fact that John saw the very moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. You will to ignore it, because it throws off your preconceived timing. It shows us that the first seals were opened back around 32 AD.
 
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iamlamad

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Them in Revelation 6, seen in the 5th seal are the same ones in Revelation 7.

It is before the sixth seal event, that they are slain for the word of God. I agree that is what the text indicates.
YOu cannot prove that by scripture: you can only guess with no basis. It is a poor guess. The martyrs have been told they must wait for the final martyr before judgment comes. In Revelation judgment begins at the 6th seal - or if you prefer, the 7th seal. The rapture then will come just before that.

Again there is no hint whatsoever that this great crowd has been martyred.
 
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keras

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Everything John has seen has been from THE THRONE ROOM of God since Rev. 4:1, he is a part of the Bride, it is the Bride in Heaven in Rev. 7, no one else !! Amen.
But you are wrong, because heaven is never mentioned in Revelation 7.
God's Throne and the attendants can be seen by those on earth. Ezekiel and Stephen saw it. Yes: John was in heaven writing Revelation, but viewing an earthly scene.

Do you deny the Jesus said several times that no one goes to heaven?
Your 'rapture to heaven' belief is a false as a tin dog. Try believing Bible truth for a change, its better for your soul.
 
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keras

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in 1 Thes. 5. Paul tells us the rapture will trigger the DAY and His wrath, putting the rapture then just a moment before the 6th seal
What contrived rubbish! Paul says no such thing.
The Sixth Seal will be triggered by an attack upon Israel. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12
 
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Choose Wisely

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Some people ignore that John numbered the seals, the trumpets, the woes, and the vials for sequencing. They imaging they can rearrange what John wrote - even rearrange what John numbered! Outside of what John numbered, the Holy Spirit, guiding John, set the chronology.

Some people ignore Rev 11 and Rev 14. The also deny that Jesus and John were in agreement about endtimes which is especially puzzling.
 
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iamlamad

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But you are wrong, because heaven is never mentioned in Revelation 7.
God's Throne and the attendants can be seen by those on earth. Ezekiel and Stephen saw it. Yes: John was in heaven writing Revelation, but viewing an earthly scene.

Do you deny the Jesus said several times that no one goes to heaven?
Your 'rapture to heaven' belief is a false as a tin dog. Try believing Bible truth for a change, its better for your soul.
I have heard wild theories before, but this one.....how can anybody be so wrong and think they are right? But you do.
 
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iamlamad

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Some people ignore Rev 11 and Rev 14. The also deny that Jesus and John were in agreement about endtimes which is especially puzzling.
OF COURSE they were and are in agreement, because the Holy Spirit guided John. Whoever said they weren't? However, some people imagine Jesus was talking about Paul's rapture in His gathering! That is a WILD imagination. This Mat. 24 gathering will be 7 plus years after Paul's gathering, and it will about a different group of people.
 
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iamlamad

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What contrived rubbish! Paul says no such thing.
The Sixth Seal will be triggered by an attack upon Israel. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12
Oh yes, He does. You just don't understand Paul. Sorry, but the 6th seal will be opened by Jesus just a moment after the rapture.

What you are missing: Paul's "sudden destruction" wrath of God - coming a moment after the dead in Christ rise. Paul tells us that at that moment, two different groups of people get two different results: Those living in the light of the gospel get raptured, and so, saved from the sudden destruction. But those living in darkness will be left behind and they cannot escape this sudden destruction, for it will be the worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising. It is the very same earthquake as seen at the 6th seal, for God's wrath begins at the 6th seal and Paul tells us that the sudden destruction is God's wrath.

I am quite sure your preconceived glasses will prevent you from seeing this. Take them off, throw your theories into the trash and start over. You will be better off.
 
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You are the first and only one I have ever read after that imagines that God gets angry, then gets over it, they gets angry again!
Somehow no matter how simple things are, you just can't keep up. I asked you to pay attention so you wouldn't make these kind of comments in ignorance. Try to focus................

Chapter 1
There was a terrible storm on the way to the World Super Bowl. Many cars were swept off the road by the flooding. The game began after the players gathered at midfield to toss a coin. The first cheerleader cheered and the score was 6 to nothing. The second cheerleader cheered and the score was 13 to nothing. The third cheerleader cheered and the score was 20 to nothing. The cars were stuck in the parking lot for hours. There was honking, and beeping and lights flashing and punches thrown.

Chapter 2
It was ten miles to the stadium from the river. The tornadoes came one after another and destroyed may cars. I saw the kickoff and the team in white ran hard and fast. The first cheerleader waved her pom-poms and the score was 7 to nothing. The team in green could not move the move the football. The second cheerleader waved her pom-poms and the score was 14 for the white team and nothing for the green. Then the third cheerleader came forward and vigorously waved her pom-poms and the score was 21 to nothing. The game was over and there was honking and beeping and lights flashing. And many were knocked to the ground because of the punches thrown.

So when you read these two chapters you would claim there are two different games. You would say look at the score.....in one game it says the score is 6 to nothing when the cheerleader cheers.........but in the other game the score is 7 to nothing when the cheerleader waves her pom-poms. Completely different game. And look at the tornadoes that are destroying the cars. You would say.....you are trying to put the tornadoes before the World Super Bowl...when we can clearly see they are after the World Super Bowl. Any one attempting to change the order of an example post in the Christian Forum will fail.

I, however, realize that we are looking at the same game in both chapters. The reason that the first cheerleader cheers when the score is 6 to nothing is because she cheers when the touchdown is scored. However, in the other view the cheerleader does not wave her pom-poms until the extra point is kicked at 7 to nothing. And the same thing happens after the second touchdown and the third touchdown. We are looking at the same game in both chapter 1 and chapter 2 even though the score is different and you have one group of of cheerleaders cheering and one group in another view waving pom-poms. Additionally before the game there is flooding in one view and tornadoes in another view. It's the same game.........it's the same storm before the game, it just that in one view you see flooding and in the other view you see tornadoes. I am not trying to rearrange the chapters I am overlaying the chapters where they go.

I know the odds of you grasping this are slight.......but that's whats going on. I am not rearranging anything. So your comment about God getting angry and getting over it and getting angry again.......are left wanting.
 
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iamlamad

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Somehow no matter how simple things are, you just can't keep up. I asked you to pay attention so you wouldn't make these kind of comments in ignorance. Try to focus................

Chapter 1
There was a terrible storm on the way to the World Super Bowl. Many cars were swept off the road by the flooding. The game began after the players gathered at midfield to toss a coin. The first cheerleader cheered and the score was 6 to nothing. The second cheerleader cheered and the score was 13 to nothing. The third cheerleader cheered and the score was 20 to nothing. The cars were stuck in the parking lot for hours. There was honking, and beeping and lights flashing and punches thrown.

Chapter 2
It was ten miles to the stadium from the river. The tornadoes came one after another and destroyed may cars. I saw the kickoff and the team in white ran hard and fast. The first cheerleader waved her pom-poms and the score was 7 to nothing. The team in green could not move the move the football. The second cheerleader waved her pom-poms and the score was 14 for the white team and nothing for the green. Then the third cheerleader came forward and vigorously waved her pom-poms and the score was 21 to nothing. The game was over and there was honking and beeping and lights flashing. And many were knocked to the ground because of the punches thrown.

So when you read these two chapters you would claim there are two different games. You would say look at the score.....in one game it says the score is 6 to nothing when the cheerleader cheers.........but in the other game the score is 7 to nothing when the cheerleader waves her pom-poms. Completely different game. And look at the tornadoes that are destroying the cars. You would say.....you are trying to put the tornadoes before the World Super Bowl...when we can clearly see they are after the World Super Bowl. Any one attempting to change the order of an example post in the Christian Forum will fail.

I, however, realize that we are looking at the same game in both chapters. The reason that the first cheerleader cheers when the score is 6 to nothing is because she cheers when the touchdown is scored. However, in the other view the cheerleader does not wave her pom-poms until the extra point is kicked at 7 to nothing. And the same thing happens after the second touchdown and the third touchdown. We are looking at the same game in both chapter 1 and chapter 2 even though the score is different and you have one group of of cheerleaders cheering and one group in another view waving pom-poms. Additionally before the game there is flooding in one view and tornadoes in another view. It's the same game.........it's the same storm before the game, it just that in one view you see flooding and in the other view you see tornadoes. I am not trying to rearrange the chapters I am overlaying the chapters where they go.

I know the odds of you grasping this are slight.......but that's whats going on. I am not rearranging anything. So your comment about God getting angry and getting over it and getting angry again.......are left wanting.

I am not going to grasp error - that is for sure! You ARE rearranging. You want the days of tribulation over by the 6th seal, but the entire 70th week is still future to the 6th seal. It seems you have no grasp of time or timing at all. You want the signs in the sun and moon AFTER the tribulation to be the same sign as the signs BEFORE the week begins. And you cannot even grasp the fact that you are rearranging.

Why is this? It is first because you don't believe God can cause signs in the sun and moon more than once. It is because you imagine that a blood moon is the same as a darkened moon, as in total darkness. It is because you don't believe John's Chronology as written. It is because you simply cannot believe that God would show John a vision of the past - a throne room while Jesus was still on the earth. It is because you cannot believe John when he tells us the moment that Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down is really showing us the TIMING of the first seal.

The FIRST thing God ever showed me about the 70th week is that it was "clearly marked" in the book of Revelation. He told me how to find it and I DID find it. God marked the 70th week with 7's. But you don't believe it.

All I can say is, when Jesus comes (perhaps the next big event on earth) and then the 6th seal takes place, perhaps then you will recognize that the first 5 seals are history, having been opened around 32 AD when Jesus arose, and that they have NOTHING to do with the "trib" or the days of Great tribulation that will happen in the last half of the 70th week - FUTURE to the 6th seal.

Just so you know, there IS NO overlapping. It is all a figment of your imagination. Just so you know, "the trib" is the same as the 70th week and it begins with the 7th seal and ends with the 7th vial - chapters 8 to chapters 16.

And you expect me to believe those chapter overlay the seals in chapter 6. If John could realize what you believe, he would be shaking his head in disbelief.

Seals 1 through 5 opened at the beginning of the church age. Seal 6 will be opened after the rapture that ends the church age. Seal 6 will start the Day of the Lord and begin God's wrath. The 70th week, or "the trib" as some call it, has not started yet - in almost 2000 years of church age. And it will not start until after the rapture and after the 6th seal is opened to begin wrath - and then after the 7th seal is opened. This is "chronology." It is "order." 32 AD was a long time ago - HISTORY. The 70th week is FUTURE. It will be future to the time of the 6th seal. You CANNOT get the 7th seal to start the 70th week until the 6th seal is opened - and it will not be opened to begin God's wrath until the rapture.
Got it? Don't rearrange these things! God put them in perfect order.
 
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Douggg

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YOu cannot prove that by scripture: you can only guess with no basis. It is a poor guess. The martyrs have been told they must wait for the final martyr before judgment comes. In Revelation judgment begins at the 6th seal - or if you prefer, the 7th seal. The rapture then will come just before that.

Again there is no hint whatsoever that this great crowd has been martyred.
Since them in Revelation 6, the 5th seal ,are told to wait, until joined by their fellowservants and brothers, it is an indication that they are there before the great tribulation is over.

The great tribulation will be 1335 days long.

The six seals basically describes the 7 year 70th week as segments.
 
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iamlamad

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Since them in Revelation 6, the 5th seal ,are told to wait, until joined by their fellowservants and brothers, it is an indication that they are there before the great tribulation is over.

The great tribulation will be 1335 days long.

The six seals basically describes the 7 year 70th week as segments.
Sorry, but it is an indication they are church age martyrs. Any 70th week martyr would know they had only 7 years or less to wait out. You will probably have to wait for heaven before you learn the truth. This is not a real important issue.
 
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BABerean2

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Yes, what you suggested is just MORE imagination.

Rev 16:15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
Rev 16:18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.
(What does the greatest earthquake in history do to this planet?)

Rev 16:19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
Rev 16:20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
(What happens to this planet if every island moves, and the mountains are destroyed?)

Rev 16:21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

.
 
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Douggg

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Yes, what you suggested is just MORE imagination.
Well, Revelation 16:15-16 is at Jesus's Second Coming. It is not the timing rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonian4:15-18, however.
 
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