How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

Yeshua HaDerekh · Nov 21, 2018

Dave L said:
Faith results from having the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19

Yeshua HaDerekh · Nov 21, 2018

Dave L said:
But he loves us only because Christ paid for our sins. He hates the rest.
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36) (KJV 1900)

NO...He paid for our sins BECAUSE He loves us

Dave L · Nov 21, 2018

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Acts 19

They already has the Holy Spirit of which faith is a fruit of, but they didn't have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit until Paul imparted the Spirit to them.

“And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.” (Acts 19:6) (NASB95)

Dave L · Nov 21, 2018

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
NO...He paid for our sins BECAUSE He loves us

No, God hates sinners. But because he is love, he paid for our sins so he can love us.

redleghunter · Nov 21, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
I do not question the Scriptures. I completely agree with them.

Was everyone after Adam dead in trespasses and sins? If so, how do you explain Noah, Job, and Daniel who, in Ezekiel 14, God declared righteous, if they were dead in their trespasses and sins?

If being made alive in Christ is necessary for us to then choose to believe, how did it happen for Noah, Job, and Daniel?

Just thinking of Hebrews 11:6 and 11:13, how does that happen? They were persuaded of things to come--like the hope we have--not given a new heart so they could have faith--because God goes all the way back to Abel, Enoch (who walked with God and was translated so he didn't see death), Noah, and many more. He even includes the harlot Rahab as having faith and not perishing as a result of it.

How does that happen if you understand Paul's theology the way you seem to share that you do?

Excellent questions. It has always been by Grace through faith from the foundations of the Earth. I think Hebrews 11 makes that quite clear. Paul in Romans 8 gives us an early version of what we call the order of things or ordo salutis:
Romans 8: NASB
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
The same sovereign "formula" if you will for all saints from the Beginning.

This is where God's Sovereign Grace is first recorded:

Genesis 3: NASB
1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” 2The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.

[...]

20Now the man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living. 21The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
The first thing Adam and Eve tried to do was cover themselves with their own efforts which were the fig leaves. Yet we see YHWH cover them with animal skins.

redleghunter · Nov 21, 2018

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
that has nothing to do with the topic at hand

Yes in fact it does.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 21, 2018

Dave L said:
Faith results from having the Holy Spirit.

No, we are fully capable of having faith in all sorts of things without the Holy Spirit. I have faith that if I go through a light when it is green that the cross traffic has a red light and that they can and will stop at the red light. If I didn't, I would have to slow down and creep out at every redlight I came to.

I have faith every time I get in my car that it will get me to and from where I am supposed to go. If I didn't I wouldn't get in.

Any time I am planning beyond my most immediate second, I am having faith that I will be given the time to make my reason for planning for its use worthwile, otherwise I would think any planning was a waste of time.

If I can have faith in inanimate objects and the likelihood of future time, because I have experience with those things, why can't I have faith in a God who gives me experience with Him, prior to having His Holy Spirit residing in me?

Dave L · Nov 21, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
No, we are fully capable of having faith in all sorts of things without the Holy Spirit. I have faith that if I go through a light when it is green that the cross traffic has a red light and that they can and will stop at the red light. If I didn't, I would have to slow down and creep out at every redlight I came to.

I have faith every time I get in my car that it will get me to and from where I am supposed to go. If I didn't I wouldn't get in.

Any time I am planning beyond my most immediate second, I am having faith that I will be given the time to make my reason for planning for its use worthwile, otherwise I would think any planning was a waste of time.

If I can have faith in inanimate objects and the likelihood of future time, because I have experience with those things, why can't I have faith in a God who gives me experience with Him, prior to having His Holy Spirit residing in me?

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19–21) (KJV 1900)

Will you point out something in us that wants to be saved from the sins we love?

Kenny'sID · Nov 21, 2018

Dave L said:
No, God hates sinners. But because he is love, he paid for our sins so he can love us.

For God so loved the world (present tense) that he gave his only begotten son (future tense)

He loved the world/us first.

Dave L · Nov 21, 2018

Kenny'sID said:
For God so loved the world (present tense) that he gave his only begotten son (future tense)

He loved the world/us first.

Only in Christ. The others no so lucky.

Kenny'sID · Nov 21, 2018

Dave L said:
Only in Christ. The others no so lucky.

Kind of vague.

Are you saying he didn't love the whole world? Or what?

Dave L · Nov 21, 2018

Kenny'sID said:
Kind of vague.

Are you saying he didn't love the whole world? Or what?

God hates sin and sinners. He loves those who are in Christ. And he loves the world enough to save all of it in the New Heavens and Earth - minus the sinners.

Kenny'sID · Nov 21, 2018

Dave L said:
God hates sin and sinners. He loves those who are in Christ. And he loves the world enough to save all of it in the New Heavens and Earth - minus the sinners.

We are all sinners, but I think i see what you ate saying. He's basically not going to save those who choose not to get saved, as opposed to those who do and make at least a good attempt at not being a sinner, even though they will still sin.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Nov 21, 2018

Dave L said:
They already has the Holy Spirit of which faith is a fruit of, but they didn't have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit until Paul imparted the Spirit to them.

“And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.” (Acts 19:6) (NASB95)

Well, no, that is NOT what it says...Paul asks them "“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” “No, they said". You are wrong Dave.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Nov 21, 2018

Dave L said:
Only in Christ. The others no so lucky.

NO Dave, you are wrong. We ALL have the same opportunity

BCsenior · Nov 21, 2018

Phoebe Ann said:
I could not choose to follow Christ until God opened my eyes and lifted me from darkness to light. Faith comes from God.

Absolutely true ... I wish everyone understood that.
However, some are really put off by "election".
One young lady told me that she could never love
a God who would choose to send her father to hell.
But, she meant arbitrarily ... not understanding
that God actually has HIS reasons for choosing
some and not others ... so it's not arbitrary!

Yeshua HaDerekh · Nov 21, 2018

Dave L said:
No, God hates sinners. But because he is love, he paid for our sins so he can love us.

You are wrong.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Nov 21, 2018

Dave L said:
God hates sin and sinners. He loves those who are in Christ. And he loves the world enough to save all of it in the New Heavens and Earth - minus the sinners.

NO...He paid for our sins BECAUSE He loves us. He does not want anyone to perish...

Yeshua HaDerekh · Nov 21, 2018

redleghunter said:
Yes in fact it does.

not at all

BCsenior · Nov 21, 2018

MDC said:
If you agree that faith is a gift of God, then you must know that that faith given by God will abide and endure to the end correct? Persevering by Gods power, not ours

C'mon please ... if I throw away Jim's gift to me,
or fail to take care of it and it spoils, etc.
... I am not allowing it to endure forever!
And I love Jim more than anyone in the whole world.

It's all about our free will ... and God will NOT violate it.
However, He does His best to help us get through!

How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

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Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Still an evangelist

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Still an evangelist

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