How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

redleghunter said:

It is not puppetry. We truly do what our hearts desire or try to. If we are dead in our sins and trespasses that is what leads our desires. If we are slaves to Christ that is what leads our desires.

St Paul explains this well in Romans 6.

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redleghunter said:

Not Calvinism nor any Reformed theology. I think the OP is doing a poor job of explaining how God changes the heart to receive the Gospel. Like the souls who were pricked to the heart in Acts 2. As we see in Ezekiel 36 as I posted up thread:

Ezekiel 36: NASB

22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23“I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29“Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. 30“I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31“Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32“I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”

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First I understand that I am butting in someone else's discussion, but for my own clarification.

So, if I understand you correctly, you believe God has to give us a new heart before we can choose Him (similar to what Dave L would say). So, until God chooses to do that and only for those God chooses to do that, no one can choose to do His will--even the very choice to believe in Him is contingent on God choosing who He is going to allow to do that, if I understand your logic correctly. So, only those God is willing to allow can choose Him and those He allows He allows by putting a new heart in them that has the desire for God built in, so that it becomes a natural choice for the regenerated heart. It has nothing to do with anything in that individual does (past, present, or future)--even though God is out of time--if I understand you correctly.

(1) If He has already given us this new undepraved uncorrupted heart to replace our totally depraved heart, so we now instantly go from being slaves to sin and death to slaves of Christ, how is it that there is any depraved desire remaining in individuals who are truly His? Why would a new heart fashioned by God and placed in a human with His Law written on it, violate that law written on it to fulfill the lusts of the flesh--when the desires of such a new heart would be totally lined up with God unlike a totally depraved heart?

(2) If Ezekiel 36 has already happened, why the uncleanness that many on this thread would say still exist as they still refer to themselves as sinners--even those who would claim they received the new heart and therefore should be living out of the new nature, not the old? With a new heart and new desires forthcoming from that heart, there is no reason that there should be the Romans 7 tug-of-war that people who claim to be believers experience.

(3) If we couldn't cross outside of our old nature--completely unable to do so as some suggest--why should we be able to cross outside of our new nature to revert to our old fleshly desires that should be gone with the old heart that has been replaced? That certainly seems to be like political double-talk.

(4) If everything is contingent on what heart God allows us to have--as all have been sentenced to the old heart due to Adam's sin until God gives this new heart to some--then how does that not relegate us to puppets who can only act in accordance with the set of desires we have been given?

While God is certainly absolutely sovereign enough to just run a puppet show called mankind, I don't believe that brings God the kind of glory that having people HE CHOSE TO MAKE FREE TO CHOOSE willfully choose Him out of freedom that He has provided for them to do so. For example, Noah or Abraham or Moses or Joseph--all of whom were before the prophetic word spoken by Ezekiel. I don't believe God gave them a new heart so they would necessarily choose Him.

Dave L said:

You believe because you are saved. You are not saved because you were a cut above the rest and decided to believe in the flesh.

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First I don't know anyone, neither have I read any writings by Christians, that believe what you write here.

So you are saying one must be saved before they can repent. But here is what Jesus says....
Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We know that repent means to change one's mind. The Gospel inspires us to change our mind and believe. Without God's grace one would never change their mind/repent and believe. Jesus/the Holy Spirit draw men towards God if they didn't do this no one would be saved. But as you can see from the Acts scripture, regeneration doesn't happen until after repentance.

Dave L said:

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10) (KJV 1900)

“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” (Galatians 2:21) (KJV 1900)

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Correct the law wasn't made for a righteous man....were they all righteous, no. What do you think would have happened to them and indeed would Jesus have come from them if God had not given them the Law of Moses? What do you think they would have been doing?

Nowhere did I say anything about salvation, justification, or sanctification coming by the Law of Moses, even Messianics don't believe that.

If you had children did you have rules for them to follow? Did you do this to punish them or to protect and teach them right from wrong? Did you do this because you were angry with them or because you loved them?

Dave L said:

Only believers (the saved) will repent.

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Scripture please. I just quoted scripture that says differently.

Phoebe Ann said:

We can't make ourselves His sheep! We don't seek God or desire Him before He quickens us. When He changes us we follow (present and future tense). A sheep doesn't turn into a non-sheep. How can you believe that?

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins,
hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved); 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 John 3
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Does a Christian have His Spirit?

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Until He gives us His Spirit, we don't belong to Him; we're still walking in darkness and don't know that we need a Savior. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to the non-Christian.

When He gives us His Spirit, it isn't a temporary gift. We need His Spirit.

Hebrews 13
5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

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Bless you beloved friend. I would like to kindly point out a few things pertaining to the scriptures you’ve provided.

Ephesians 2

The words “hath He quickened” in verse 1 are not in the original Greek scriptures. They are an addition to the scriptures to usher people towards the translator’s personal interpretation. Verse 5 is also the same situation. Words are added by the translator to express his personal interpretation.

Verse 1 actually reads like this

And you were dead in the trespasses and the sins.

This part is not in the scriptures it is added by the translator

hath he quickened

Verse 5 reads like this

Even were we dead in the trespasses with the Christ grace are saved.

This part of verse 5 is also not in the scriptures and is also added by the translator.

hath quickened us together

It really is quite unfortunate that people added to the original texts to incorporate their own personal interpretations. I see so many inaccuracies in the English translations it really is frustrating to see people trying to conform the word of God to fit their beliefs instead of just translating it to give only the message that the authors intended. Nothing more and nothing less.

If you have a smartphone I would suggest downloading an app called Greek interlinear Bible. It’s a great free app and very easy to use. I would also recommend an app called Strong’s Concordance KJV. I did pay a little for some of the extra features in this bible. I think maybe $10 but I don’t think you have to pay to use the Strong’s dictionary in it. I use the Greek interlinear bible to see the original texts which it also shows the Strong’s concordance reference numbers for each word which you can then search in the Strong’s concordance KJV app and get the definitions of these Greek words. You can search by words in the Strong’s app but it’s a KJV Bible so your not getting the original unedited version of the scriptures. So often the words in the KJV are not as accurate as the Greek Interlinear. This has been extremely useful in determining what the original scriptures taught and has shown me so many inaccuracies in the English translations. If your serious about your bible study I highly recommend these two apps my friend. These allowed me to see just how “sugar coated” the English translations actually are and how much people are being ushered towards personal interpretations of the translators that the early churches didn’t teach.

Your reference to 1 John 3 is also explained in John 15:1-10.

“Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-7‬

Jesus abiding in us is conditional of our abiding in Him. Everyone who turns to God makes a choice of their own free will to do so. No one is forced against their will to study the gospel. God urges us to do so and it is thru our compliance that we receive the gospel and repent. If we cannot do anything to save ourselves then there is no free will and God chooses who will be saved as well as who will burn in the lake of fire. Those who will burn would never have any chance for salvation because of God’s choice. Which would make God responsible for their disobedience, their sin, and their fate. Yes salvation is not of ourselves or our own doing. This means that it is by God’s plan that He has made The Way for us to be saved. Without His Way (Jesus Christ) salvation would not be possible. We cannot save ourselves but this doesn’t mean that we do not have to do anything to receive salvation. Salvation is conditional. We must be born again becoming a new creation with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who will forever guide us in our walk in life. In order to do that we must repent, choose to turn to God. Look at every case of a person receiving salvation in the Bible. They all first repented by choosing to turn to God and believe. When the jailer asked Paul and Silas “what must I do to be saved” Paul said believe. Believing is repentance. Paul didn’t quote Ephesians 2:8 because it wasn’t relevant to the situation. The jailer must do something to be saved. He must believe. Then he can receive the Holy Spirit and God’s gift of grace. Receiving the Holy Spirit does not ensure salvation. We still have to adhere to the guidance of the Holy Spirit in order to abide in Christ. It is not automatic. This is why we still sin after having received the Holy Spirit because we make bad choices sometimes. If we constantly disregard the Spirit we will not be saved. Now if brother Dave L is correct that we have no free will then Paul would’ve said something like don’t worry about it if your going to be saved God will save you. If your not chosen then there’s nothing you can do to be saved. But God doesn’t choose who is saved and who burns. God wants everyone to repent and be saved. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 2 Peter 3:9. God gives everyone both the opportunity and the ability to repent but it is up to us whether or not we choose to exercise this ability and accept the opportunity of receiving His gift of grace. Once we have accepted His grace we still have to abide and endure to the end. This is what Jesus is explaining to His faithful 11 apostles in John 15:1-10. There is no doubt that they believed or that they were genuine believers. According to John 6:64 Jesus knew who didn’t believe so this also means He knew who did believe and all of these 11 apostles were present at Capernaum. Yet knowing they undoubtedly believed He still felt it was necessary to warn them about turning away. We have to understand that salvation is an inheritance. It’s something promised to be received at a later time but it is conditional. We can receive the promise but we don’t actually receive the inheritance until we either die or judgement day. This is why some scriptures say we have salvation and some say we will receive salvation.

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:36‬

“And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:29-30‬

““Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers. And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:9-13‬

“You will stand trial before governors and kings because you are my followers. But this will be your opportunity to tell the rulers and other unbelievers about me. When you are arrested, don’t worry about how to respond or what to say. God will give you the right words at the right time. For it is not you who will be speaking—it will be the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. “A brother will betray his brother to death, a father will betray his own child, and children will rebel against their parents and cause them to be killed. And all nations will hate you because you are my followers. But everyone who endures to the end will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:18-22‬

This is getting a little long so I think I will stop there for now. Have a blessed day my friend.

Dave L said:

But none seek after God, they have all gone out of the way. The only reason we believe is because God saved us giving us a new heart and a love for him and others. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You believe because you are saved. You are not saved because you were a cut above the rest and decided to believe in the flesh.

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You keep going round and round.
You make the decision out to be something noble, honorable and praise worthy, when it is not.
I am not saying the nonbeliever turns to become a soldier for Christ.

All the nonbeliever does is wimp out, give up and surrender, but at the moment of deciding to surrender the nonbeliever will still consider God his enemy (no love there) and can feel because of his war crimes should be tortured and killed, but the nonbeliever is just willing to humbly accept his enemies undeserved charity. Where is there glory in being willing to accept charity?

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, BNR32FAN

We are in Christ seated at the Father right hand... he is eternal, and abides so to shall we.

He is our great high priest and intercedes on our behalf, in that role he never fails.

Faith the Gift that keeps on giving!

In Him,

Bill

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Bless you brother Bill. Please consider these verses. John 15:1-10 Matthew 10:22 Matthew 24:9-13.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day,

You have the dependencies of the text confused in the sheep passage.

Sheep do "sheepish" things
Doing sheepish things does not make you a sheep.

Barking like a dog does not make you a dog.
Dogs bark because they are dogs.

Need a bit more context:

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.“I and the Father are [fn]one.”

Sheep believe, they are not sheep they do not believe. If you would like we can break down the clauses in the text with their dependencies. The tense of the verb is of little concern seeing it is a piece conjunctive phrase when understanding the text and the point Jesus is making here.

In Him,

Bill

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Are you saying that someone can cease to follow (abide) and still receive eternal life?

Dave L said:

God normally spoke through angels and visions in Acts. And through prophets until the close of the apostolic age. But praying for wisdom and having a burden to do certain things is common Christian experience. God lays it on our heart as he works in us to will and do of his good pleasure Philippians 2:13.

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I strongly suspect that we are still in the apostolic age.

Johnny4ChristJesus said:

First I understand that I am butting in someone else's discussion, but for my own clarification.

So, if I understand you correctly, you believe God has to give us a new heart before we can choose Him (similar to what Dave L would say). So, until God chooses to do that and only for those God chooses to do that, no one can choose to do His will--even the very choice to believe in Him is contingent on God choosing who He is going to allow to do that, if I understand your logic correctly. So, only those God is willing to allow can choose Him and those He allows He allows by putting a new heart in them that has the desire for God built in, so that it becomes a natural choice for the regenerated heart. It has nothing to do with anything in that individual does (past, present, or future)--even though God is out of time--if I understand you correctly.

(1) If He has already given us this new undepraved uncorrupted heart to replace our totally depraved heart, so we now instantly go from being slaves to sin and death to slaves of Christ, how is it that there is any depraved desire remaining in individuals who are truly His? Why would a new heart fashioned by God and placed in a human with His Law written on it, violate that law written on it to fulfill the lusts of the flesh--when the desires of such a new heart would be totally lined up with God unlike a totally depraved heart?

(2) If Ezekiel 36 has already happened, why the uncleanness that many on this thread would say still exist as they still refer to themselves as sinners--even those who would claim they received the new heart and therefore should be living out of the new nature, not the old? With a new heart and new desires forthcoming from that heart, there is no reason that there should be the Romans 7 tug-of-war that people who claim to be believers experience.

(3) If we couldn't cross outside of our old nature--completely unable to do so as some suggest--why should we be able to cross outside of our new nature to revert to our old fleshly desires that should be gone with the old heart that has been replaced? That certainly seems to be like political double-talk.

(4) If everything is contingent on what heart God allows us to have--as all have been sentenced to the old heart due to Adam's sin until God gives this new heart to some--then how does that not relegate us to puppets who can only act in accordance with the set of desires we have been given?

While God is certainly absolutely sovereign enough to just run a puppet show called mankind, I don't believe that brings God the kind of glory that having people HE CHOSE TO MAKE FREE TO CHOOSE willfully choose Him out of freedom that He has provided for them to do so. For example, Noah or Abraham or Moses or Joseph--all of whom were before the prophetic word spoken by Ezekiel. I don't believe God gave them a new heart so they would necessarily choose Him.

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I'll start with Ephesians chapter 2 where we are dead and He makes us alive. Just as dead people cannot rise themselves but God can only do. Also notice the order of 'things' in this passage.

Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

This is a sovereign act of God.

Dave L said:

“In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.” (2 Timothy 2:25–26) (KJV 1900)

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Repentance/changing of the mind, acknowledging the truth, before they are saved from sin and death.

We see that even these who oppose Timothy's authority and his teachings are not beyond God's mercy and grace.