The calvinism versus arminianism debate.

BobRyan

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I wonder sometimes if this debate is fruitful, it does go on a bit. Imagine if John Wesley (an Arminian) and George Whitefield (a Calvinist) had remain locked in argument with each other for years and not engaged in any evangelistic outreach. Instead they both parted company and went their own ways, and continued to preach the Gospel, as a result more people heard the gospel than if they had continued to minister together. As far as I can see both Arminians and Calvinists preach the Gospel.

1. I don't know of any case where a Calvinist or Arminian evangelist stopped evangelizing and settled for merely arguing with one other person with an opposing view.

2. I don't know of anyone that can evangelize by making the Calvinist appeal "nothing you decide here today will change your future in the least ... heaven or hell. So let's cut to the chase ... sit and watch to see who God will sovereignly ordain to come forward for baptism... a moment of silence if you please".

Such "evangelism" does not exist in real life - and cannot be found in the Bible.'

3. By contrast BOTH Calvinists and Arminians make the Arminian appeal "We BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5 -- just as Paul made it.

That fact alone should have deleted Calvinism a long time ago.
 
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bcbsr

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Good day,

I am with the Calvinist missionary William Carey on this "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,"

The Gospel is the Power unto Salvation, and we must preach it to the heathen.

Edited to add:

Cotton Mathers has a book by that name "What Must I do to be saved"
I also Think the DJ Kennedy in Evangelism explosion covers that question as well.
Yep, that's what I'm talking about. Calvinists preaching of the gospel is inconsistent with their soteriology. For if people are elect to eternal life prior to birth and nothing can change that status, then they are already saved when they are born. Under Calvinism salvation is not by faith but by election. But as proven in your response, that's not what Calvinists preach when it comes to evangelism.

Now as I see it when there's an inconsistency between what a person claims to believe and what they preach, then they don't really believe it. That is, you and William Carey and likely most all Calvinists are merely armchair Calvinists. For when it comes to application of your alleged faith in the postulations of Calvinism, it's not there.

To be noted, you responded to the question "What must I do to be saved?" with reference to another Calvinist, and not the the apostle Paul who explicitly answers the question. And likewise two other Calvinists who wrote books you want me to read, rather than referencing the Bible

And that's another difference between a Berean, like myself, and a Calvinists. I base my beliefs upon the Bible, whereas Calvinists base their beliefs on other Calvinists.
 
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BBAS 64

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1. I don't know of any case where a Calvinist or Arminian evangelist stopped evangelizing and settled for merely arguing with one other person with an opposing view.

2. I don't know of anyone that can evangelize by making the Calvinist appeal "nothing you decide here today will change your future in the least ... heaven or hell. So let's cut to the chase ... sit and watch to see who God will sovereignly ordain to come forward for baptism... a moment of silence if you please".

Such "evangelism" does not exist in real life - and cannot be found in the Bible.'

3. By contrast BOTH Calvinists and Arminians make the Arminian appeal "We BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5 -- just as Paul made it.

That fact alone should have deleted Calvinism a long time ago.


Good day, Bob

Your self made "Calvinist appeal" is a straw-man you created so you can burn down.

I would remind you that the greatest Evangelistic out reach has always be by those who hold to the Doctrines of Grace. In case you were unaware Calvin's Missionary school was quite effective in saving many of Calvin's own country men. The great awakening in the United states rooted in the doctrines of Grace... Give Edwards a read at some point on effective Gospel evangelism or maybe Evangelism explosion by DJ Kennedy.

You really should make use of the information that is out there. Before making categorically untrue statements, when you clearly have misrepresented the facts or do not know them.

For your reading pleasure:

https://www.spurgeongems.org/vols31-33/chs1837.pdf

In Him,

Bill
 
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BobRyan

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Good day, Bob
Your self made "Calvinist appeal" is a straw-man you created so you can burn down.

had that been true - you would have pointed to at least one statement I made that 4 and 5 point Calvinists would reject -- ... you did not.

What is more - I provided one simple example of the failure of Calvinism ... and you did not address the details in that short example.

That is "instructive"
 
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BBAS 64

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Yep, that's what I'm talking about. Calvinists preaching of the gospel is inconsistent with their soteriology. For if people are elect to eternal life prior to birth and nothing can change that status, then they are already saved when they are born. Under Calvinism salvation is not by faith but by election. But as proven in your response, that's not what Calvinists preach when it comes to evangelism.

Now as I see it when there's an inconsistency between what a person claims to believe and what they preach, then they don't really believe it. That is, you and William Carey and likely most all Calvinists are merely armchair Calvinists. For when it comes to application of your alleged faith in the postulations of Calvinism, it's not there.

To be noted, you responded to the question "What must I do to be saved?" with reference to another Calvinist, and not the the apostle Paul who explicitly answers the question. And likewise two other Calvinists who wrote books you want me to read, rather than referencing the Bible

And that's another difference between a Berean, like myself, and a Calvinists. I base my beliefs upon the Bible, whereas Calvinists base their beliefs on other Calvinists.


Good Day,

You asked the question I gave you the answer, sorry you did not like it.

But there is your answer, and it does not change no matter how unable you are to understand it.

In Him,

Bill
 
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BBAS 64

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had that been true - you would have pointed to at least one statement I made that 4 and 5 point Calvinists would reject -- ... you did not.

What is more - I provided one simple example of the failure of Calvinism ... and you did not address the details in that short example.

That is "instructive"

Good day, Bob

Seeing you are begging the question:

"Calvinist appeal "nothing you decide here today will change your future in the least ."

Ok source of one teacher of the Doctrines of Grace who makes that exact appeal... or it right called a straw-man.

In Him,

Bill
 
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RDKirk

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Good day, Bob

Your self made "Calvinist appeal" is a straw-man you created so you can burn down.

I would remind you that the greatest Evangelistic out reach has always be by those who hold to the Doctrines of Grace. In case you were unaware Calvin's Missionary school was quite effective in saving many of Calvin's own country men. The great awakening in the United states rooted in the doctrines of Grace... Give Edwards a read at some point on effective Gospel evangelism or maybe Evangelism explosion by DJ Kennedy.

You really should make use of the information that is out there. Before making categorically untrue statements, when you clearly have misrepresented the facts or do not know them.

For your reading pleasure:

https://www.spurgeongems.org/vols31-33/chs1837.pdf

In Him,

Bill

Bill, you failed to address the point made that the actual evangelistic approach of Calvinists to the unsaved (regardless what they espouse in their own circles) is not Calvinism.
 
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bcbsr

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Good Day,

You asked the question I gave you the answer, sorry you did not like it.

But there is your answer, and it does not change no matter how unable you are to understand it.

In Him,

Bill
Oh, you answered as I expect. And you gave the correct answer. My point is simply that your answer is not consistent with Calvinism, as I have also show. That's the hypocrisy that Calvinists typically practice.
 
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BobRyan

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Good day, Bob

Seeing you are begging the question:

"Calvinist appeal "nothing you decide here today will change your future in the least ."

Ok source of one teacher of the Doctrines of Grace

They call it "unconditional election" and "irresistible grace"

"Hyper-Calvinism denies the necessity of human action"
"Hyper-Calvinism is a branch of Protestant theology that denies the universal duty of human beings to believe in Christ into the salvation of their souls."
Hyper-Calvinism - Wikipedia

============== Spurgen on Unconditional Election
Spurgeon further asserted, “God from the beginning chose His people; when the unnavigated ether was yet unfanned by the wing of a single angel, when space was shoreless, or else unborn, when universal silence reigned, and not a voice or whisper shocked the solemnity of silence, when there was no being, and no motion, no time, and naught but God Himself, alone in His eternity.” In eternity past, God sovereignly set His affections on a particular people and predestined their salvation. Moreover, sovereign election, Spurgeon affirmed, was based not on divine foresight but on divine foreordination: “‘But,’ say others, ‘God elected them on the foresight of their faith.’ Now, God gives faith, therefore He could not have elected them on account of faith which He foresaw.


============== Spurgeon on irresistible grace
Charles Spurgeon affirmed the doctrine of irresistible grace. This is the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit, who convicts, calls, draws, and regenerates elect sinners. This work unfailingly results in the faith of all those chosen. All whom the Father chose in eternity past and all those for whom the Son died are those whom the Spirit brings to faith in Jesus Christ. None whom the Father elected and for whom Christ died fail to believe. The Holy Spirit grants repentance and faith to these elect sinners and ensures their conversion.

This irresistible call is distinct from the general call of the gospel. The former is extended only to the elect and cannot be resisted

================= other quotes
The term "Hyper-Calvinist" is sometimes used as a pejorative; Jim Ellis suggests that "it seems as if anyone to the right of one's own theological position is fair game to be labeled a hyper-Calvinist."[8] Notwithstanding this, people who have been described as Hyper-Calvinists include John Skepp (d. 1721),[11] Lewis Wayman (d. 1764),[12] John Brine (d. 1765),[12] and John Gill (d. 1771).[12]

David Engelsma notes that his own denomination, the Protestant Reformed Churches in America, has been labelled as "Hyper-Calvinist" for its rejection of the "well-meant offer of the gospel".[13]

"Curt Daniel defines Hyper-Calvinism as "that school of supralapsarian Five Point Calvinism which so stresses the sovereignty of God"
 
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BBAS 64

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Bill, you failed to address the point made that the actual evangelistic approach of Calvinists to the unsaved (regardless what they espouse in their own circles) is not Calvinism.


Good Day, RDKirk

Let me get this straight.. you ask a Calvinist a question, and the Calvinist answers. Then you think as a non Calvinist you have the right to determine the validity of their answer.

By asserting that it is not Calvinism.. really.

I hope you can see how silly that really is...

In Him,

Bill
 
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Oh, you answered as I expect. And you gave the correct answer. My point is simply that your answer is not consistent with Calvinism, as I have also show. That's the hypocrisy that Calvinists typically practice.


Good Day, bcbsr

Assumption on your part that you know rightly what historical Calvinism is.... fact not yet determined.

In Him,

Bill
 
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BobRyan

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Oh, you answered as I expect. And you gave the correct answer. My point is simply that your answer is not consistent with Calvinism, as I have also show. That's the hypocrisy that Calvinists typically practice.

Every Calvinist denies every other Calvinist that does not accept their 5 points exactly as they state them.
 
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oldWorshipper

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Imagine if John Wesley (an Arminian) and George Whitefield (a Calvinist) had remain locked in argument with each other for years and not engaged in any evangelistic outreach.

Well, according to ONE of those points of view it wouldn't have made any difference at all, right? The same people would have been saved, either way. Which makes me wonder if that's why the people on that side of the argument are often willing to spend so much more time on it ;)
 
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RDKirk

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Good Day, RDKirk

Let me get this straight.. you ask a Calvinist a question, and the Calvinist answers. Then you think as a non Calvinist you have the right to determine the validity of their answer.

By asserting that it is not Calvinism.. really.

I hope you can see how silly that really is...

In Him,

Bill

As a not-quite Calvinist (I dance with concepts that Calvinists have married), I can certainly make note that Calvinists say one thing in one setting and something different in another.
 
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RDKirk

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Well, according to ONE of those points of view it wouldn't have made any difference at all, right? The same people would have been saved, either way. Which makes me wonder if that's why the people on that side of the argument are often willing to spend so much more time on it

That's an interesting point. If one is a Calvinist, then even participating in the debate is a complete waste of time.

One person who acted out his staunch Calvinism was the early American Roger Williams. Williams founded the colony of Rhode Island as a place of total religious freedom--even, explicitly in his writings--for the Muslim and the atheist.

His belief was that the state should offer absolutely no advantage to Christian belief nor impose any disadvantage to disbelief so that those who are elect will join the Church solely because they are elect and not because of any social advantage or disadvantage. In his belief, the only effect of social or governmental pressure to become Christian was to fill the pews with the unelect.
 
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JoeP222w

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I think the gospel --the message that saves--is thinner than that.

I don't think the Philippian jailer needed to have all that explained to him before he could accept Jesus, and I'm pretty sure Cornelius considered himself among the "not chosen."

Not sure what that response means in regards to my comments.
 
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oldWorshipper

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That's an interesting point. If one is a Calvinist, then even participating in the debate is a complete waste of time.

One person who acted out his staunch Calvinism was the early American Roger Williams. Williams founded the colony of Rhode Island as a place of total religious freedom--even, explicitly in his writings--for the Muslim and the atheist.

His belief was that the state should offer absolutely no advantage to Christian belief nor impose any disadvantage to disbelief so that those who are elect will join the Church solely because they are elect and not because of any social advantage or disadvantage. In his belief, the only effect of social or governmental pressure to become Christian was to fill the pews with the unelect.

I just had to say... I love your "signature" so much :) I've never used a pre-configured "signature block" on any site before, but yours makes me want to do it. Well done :) Also I would have sent this as a private message, but I don't see where/how to do that. I'm new here so I'm not sure if this isn't a feature or if it is only because I'm still so new as to have limited features.
 
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JoeP222w

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It means that when we get to the Calvinism versus Arminianism debate, we've gone beyond the gospel.

That can happen, but not absolutely and not all the time.

As I said one is aligned with Bible truths, one is not.
 
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I wonder sometimes if this debate is fruitful, it does go on a bit. Imagine if John Wesley (an Arminian) and George Whitefield (a Calvinist) had remain locked in argument with each other for years and not engaged in any evangelistic outreach. Instead they both parted company and went their own ways, and continued to preach the Gospel, as a result more people heard the gospel than if they had continued to minister together. As far as I can see both Arminians and Calvinists preach the Gospel.

The endless debate reveals that both are wrong.

Me thinks many think too much. We are to be CARETAKERS of the MYSTERIES of God - nowhere does God call on all Christians to make God make sense to themselves, nowhere does God call on all Christians tforo answer all their own questions and then require God to agree in order to be as smart as they claim they are. There are simply unanswered questions.... things not revealed. His ways are not our ways; He is not mandated to tell us everything or explain everything or even to be "logical."

Calvinists are right that Jesus is the Savior (not self).... Jesus does the saving (not the will or works of self)... and that Christians have the comfort of knowing God loved them BEFORE they were even born (much less willed or did something).

Arminians are right that God never forces His love... and that God never chooses any for hell.... and that our will is SOMEHOW involved (even though it's like GOD changes that will).

The problem comes when man appoints himself to "connect the dots" and "explain the how" and "answer the questions of self" - and then designating self as smarter than God, demands that God (and everyone else) agrees with their "answers."

Luther said that HUMILITY is the foundation of all sound theology. SO many passionately disagree, insisting that the brilliance of self is the foundation.... what jives with the "logic" and "reason" and "answers" of self since self simply knows more than God and that God appointed self to correct Him. In the words of my theology teacher, "falsehood seldom comes from saying too little." In the words of my Greek Orthodox friend, "Christians can't seem to shut up."



.
 
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