Ruhama

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@Simchat and Missy -
Granted the Torah is more direct but my point was specifically: what is the standard by which we judge what is command and what isn't?  By one standard, both may be commands.  Or taken in the opposite extreme, both may be adopted from paganism.  I take neither view, but what I'm saying is that it's easy to have a double standard with regard to the veracity of commandments.

Also... I'm wondering about the evidence Simchat posted - where was it again? I'm a skeptic whenever it comes to things like this and the bit about the Dionysian cult didn't convince me, so I'm wondering if I missed something.
 
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dignitized

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Today at 02:16 PM Chris†opher Paul said this in Post #52

Sure Missy, read John 6. The Eucharist is all right there. "This IS my Body" etc...

And if you want a nice destruction of the lie put forth about Pagan practices:

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04.html

"In spite of having been pronounced dead even by intelligent skeptics, the thesis that Judaism and Christianity consist merely of stolen pagan myths and ideas continues to be promulgated by the uncritical and accepted by the gullible. Acharya S and her Christ Conspiracy are simply the latest recycling of the general thesis, but now, even Robert Price has promulgated aspects of it in his Deconstructing Jesus."

Specifically, this deal with the lie of Mithral influences:

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04_MMM.html

An excellent web resource one I have always enjoyed.
 
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Yesterday at 08:32 PM Ruhama said this in Post #55

@Simchat and Missy -
Granted the Torah is more direct but my point was specifically: what is the standard by which we judge what is command and what isn't?  By one standard, both may be commands.  Or taken in the opposite extreme, both may be adopted from paganism.  I take neither view, but what I'm saying is that it's easy to have a double standard with regard to the veracity of commandments.

Also... I'm wondering about the evidence Simchat posted - where was it again? I'm a skeptic whenever it comes to things like this and the bit about the Dionysian cult didn't convince me, so I'm wondering if I missed something.


Well specifically to me if it's one of the 613 Commands it's a command for people to keep or if it's anything Yeshua or his Apostles told us directly to do it is a command.

And I don't really see anywhere in the Bible at least where it says, "Take Communion". But I do see where it says in the bible to keep the feasts such as Passover.

But I feel like this.. if one wants to take communion because they feel it helps them remember Yeshua's sacrifice hey that's their business.. whatever floats your boat so to speak. I just don't see any direct command that the Communion concept in Christian churches use today is in the bible as it is practiced today.

But we don't always have to agree.. what fun would that be ? LOL!

Missy
 
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Edouard

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Communion.

I feel that the churches today are not taught enough on Judaism.
After all in the Church's view Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets.

There are many events that took place in the New testement in reference to the old testement. As far as communion taking on the facade of current gods and dieties, I do not see this as a correlation.

How do we interpret Corinthians chapter 11 in comparison to the book of John.

Corinthians 11
This is my body which is for you: do this in remembrance of me....This cup is the new covenant in my blood: do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me. For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes...

If you read in Colossians it discusses how the church should keep away from pagan rituals, and not to pray to angels.

during the 40 years in the wilderness, God provided unleavened bread.
which brought life. Through Christ man has life.

Christ fast for 40 days and nights in the wilderness as well.
These are the correlations that one would seek for.

From my knowledge of Judaism, each household would offer sacrifices (blood) to atone for sins. The jewish nation had the law, and were made pure through sacrifice. The christian has already had an atonement. the lamb that was slain, shedding his blood. hence, the bread that gives life, and the blood that was shed.

The church of Corinth had its problems. That is why they were addressed.
What happens when you have new christians in the church. Old habits are hard to break without encouragement. That is what the letters were for. To encourage the church to seek christ and do what was right. Tobe set apart from the pagan culture around them.

Edouard
any thoughts
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The idea that one accepts or doesn't accept reguarding "Communion" is a personal choice. God gave us all personal choice to adapt what we believe..some beliefs will stray from His word, some will not, some will fall in between. But, still he gave us free choice and that's the beauty of being His creation, the only thing is that there are consequences for those choices, some good...others not so much.

Missy
 
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CopticOrthodox

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I admit I didn't read most of this thread, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating things already said. But in the Orthodox Church, we've kept all of our practices pretty much unchanged since the time of the Apostles. Right now for Lent we're using the Liturgy of St. Cyril, which is a slightly modified version of the Liturgy written by St. Mark, the writter of the Gospel under his name. While we don't believe in Transubstantiation, we do believe the it becomes truely His Body and Blood, and no longer bread and wine. Your (original poster) claim that the Communion ritual entered the Church in Rome through pagan celebrates isn't born out by history. Our Liturgy makes very clear that it is His Body and Blood, with Communion being the pinical, and this comes to us right from St. Mark, at the very beginning of Christianity. Also, I don't understand your logic for saying that it is wrong to use leavened bread. The Catholic practice of using unleavened bread happened very late in Christianity, the early Church uniformly used leavened bread. The night before the Liturgy a deacon makes the bread of only flour, water, and yeast. The leaven is a symbol of sin, and the baking of the bread in the oven the night before is a symbol of Christ going into the Tomb bearing our sins. Here is an article talking about leavened vs unleavened bread:

" The argument arises from the Catholics’ contention that Covenant Thursday was the Preparation day and that Good Friday was the Passover day. The Orthodox, based on sound interpretation of the Scriptures, believe that Good Friday was the Preparation day and that Saturday was the Passover day.
The Preparation day, i.e. the day before Passover, was the day in which the jews consumed all leavened bread and burned the left overs, so that, come 6 p.m., when Passover starts, there would be no leavened bread in the house. It was also the day on which the Passover lamb is slain and roasted so that it would be eaten in the evening, i.e. when Passover starts (at 6:01 p.m.)
According to the Catholics, since Covenant Thursday was the Preparation day, then at the Last Supper which took place on the evening i.e. at the start of the Passover, there would be no leavened bread in any Jewish house. The Last Supper would thus be a Passover meal, followed by the Institution of the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
The Orthodox teach that Good Friday was the Preparation day, that the Passover started on 6:01 p.m. on Good Friday, that Christ died on the Cross at the same hour the Jews slew their Passover lamb, and thus Christ became our Passover. (ICO 5:7) Because the Passover coincided with the Sabbath day (Saturday,) it was called a “High Sabbath.” It follows then, that the Last supper was an ordinary meal, where ordinary leavened bread was consumed, and not a Passover meal when only unleavened bread would be used. Here are the proofs:
“When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat ... and it was the preparation of the Passover ... then delivered he Him therefore unto them to be crucified.” (John 19:13-16)
“The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.” (John 19:31)
“There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews’ Preparation day for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.” (John 19:42)
“And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in the stone, wherein never man before was laid. And that day was the preparation and the sabbath drew on.” (Luke 23: 53-54)
It is obvious that the trial of Jesus before Pilate, His crucifixion, the breaking of the legs of the two thieves, the and the burial of Jesus happened on the preparation day. Proof that Good Friday was the preparation day.
“Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.” (Mat 27:62-64)
The chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate the next day, after the burial, which is the day after the preparation, another proof that Good Friday was the day of preparation.
“Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.” (Mat 27:3-7)
“And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country (literally, coming back from the field), the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.” (Mark 15:21)
“And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.” (Mark 15:46)
If Good Friday was the Passover day, the chief priests could not have bought the potters field, nor could Joseph of Arimathea buy linen, nor would Simon the Cyrenian be working in the field, for it was unlawful to buy, sell or work during the Passover.

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
The Last supper and the washing of the feet of the disciples on Covenant Thursday happened BEFORE THE FEAST OF THE PASSOVER. So, the Last Supper could not have been the Passover meal.
“And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast.”(John 13:27-29)
If the Last Supper was the Passover meal, why would the disciples think that Jesus was telling Judas to buy the things needed for the feast?
“Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the Passover.” (John 18:28)
On Good Friday, when Jesus was taken to Pilate. The Jews had not yet eaten the Passover, so, the Last Supper of Covenant Thursday could not have been a Passover meal.
“Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover.” (Exo 12:9-11)
The Passover meal had to be eaten in haste while they stood, during the Last Supper Jesus and the disciples were reclining. Also it was not lawful to cook it in water, but to eat it roasted, while in the Last supper Jesus dipped the bread in the plate, implying a meal cooked with water, which was forbidden. "
 
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Well I guess it would be a matter of opinion about the Orthodox church keeping practices pretty much the same as the Apostles, considering some would say the Apostles never had a "Communion" at all.. since they were Jewish. And well we all know Jews do not have "Communion".

Missy
 
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Edouard

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Preparation Day vs. Coptic Orthodox vs. Catholicism:

To my knowledge the sabbath has always been a day of rest.
But to ignore G-d's work on the sabbath how would that break the law, when one is showing G-d's love?

I don't think the calendar is as important as the practice; however most churches have evaluated the time and the order of events based on a jewish calendar. Yes, Christ was jewish as well, and so were some of the Apostles. As we read in Corinthians 11 Christ had communion with his disciples, who then would teach other christians. This practice was being abused in the Corinthian church that is why it was addressed so heavily; as well as other immoral practices. Again the purpose is to proclaim the Lord's death and ressurrection until he comes again.

So we find out in Matthew when the 70 were sent out :)

Missy: there are certain things in scripture that are debated over and divided upon among the various churches, because of interpretation.
I implore you too look at the ones that are commands verses the concepts that are interpreted and you will find that they are the one in the same.

baptism, communion, marriage, worship, prayer, confession, offering, the list goes on. All of these are issues Christ spoke directly upon, as well as in the old testement except for the first two topics :)

Edouard
May the Lord bless you and keep you~
 
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Edouard, I own many bibles and several that are Jewish such as the .. but I don't think you've seen my posts long enough to know that.. and example of some that I own is on the thread called Zechariah 12:10 in the Messianic area.. anyway, many of these bibles are indeed different and say different things in the same context.. a good example of non-Jewish bibles that do just that are the NKJV and the KJV.

For example in a non-Jewish bible you would see one of the 10 commandments listed as "Thou shalt not kill" but in a Jewish bible you would see "Though shall not commit murder". At glance they look exactly the same but with a closer look you will see they are not the same at all..

Missy
 
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Lotuspetal_uk

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This has been a very interesting read! :) (head hurting with all the new info)

For the Messianic Gentiles: In light of what was originally written, can you clarify what you now do in terms of "communion" (although technically not communion if you know what I mean) during a sabbath service. I think (from what I read here) that Messianic Gentiles do not have communion per se but am unclear on what the Early Church did.

Would I be correct in thinking that Passover would be the only time in the year when Christ's return is remembered?

This information is so cool! A big light bulb switched on when reading this thread because as a Baptist I was taught that the bread and wine at communion was NOT Jesus' flesh and blood nor a spiritual representation of it. But that it was an act/command we carried out in remembrance of what Christ did until He returned. It's thus very interesting how customs have diversified with time, almost like the game 'Chinese whispers'.

It would be really great if we could get back to the original topic because this information is completely new to me and I would like to learn more.

God bless everyone!
 
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Yesterday at 10:23 PM Lotuspetal_uk said this in Post #108

This has been a very interesting read! :) (head hurting with all the new info)

For the Messianic Gentiles: In light of what was originally written, can you clarify what you now do in terms of "communion" (although technically not communion if you know what I mean) during a sabbath service. I think (from what I read here) that Messianic Gentiles do not have communion per se but am unclear on what the Early Church did.

Would I be correct in thinking that Passover would be the only time in the year when Christ's return is remembered?

This information is so cool! A big light bulb switched on when reading this thread because as a Baptist I was taught that the bread and wine at communion was NOT Jesus' flesh and blood nor a spiritual representation of it. But that it was an act/command we carried out in remembrance of what Christ did until He returned. It's thus very interesting how customs have diversified with time, almost like the game 'Chinese whispers'.

It would be really great if we could get back to the original topic because this information is completely new to me and I would like to learn more.

God bless everyone!

The eating of Challah and drinking of wine on the Sabbath could be considered "communion" but I highly doubt Messianic Jews or Gentiles like to refer to it as that so it will not be confused with the concept of Christian communion. The early church observed what every other Jew did.. that is have challah and wine on the sabbath. This was not considered "communion" in the way that Christians experience it. It is part of the meal at dinner that one shares along with family and or family and friends. It is a communion in the sense of the fact that people are eating together and sharing the in the commandment to keep the sabbath holy. But Yeshua of course is not an issue at all in Orthodox Jewish tradition. In the Messianic belief of course Yeshua is a part of everything but he is not the reason why bread and wine are eaten on the sabbath by Messianics. So no, communion in the Christian sense isn't even a factor for the majority of Messianic believers.

But there are some Messianic congregations that do accept the Christian concept of "communion" but they put their own spin on it tying it with Judaism.. and this practice by these particular Messianics is not the norm at all.

In the Messianic community, Yeshua is remember constantly. It is not on a special holiday that he is remembered. He is the center of Messianic life and is honored and remember everyday. Hence the name "Messianic".

Missy
 
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Lotuspetal_uk

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The eating of Challah and drinking of wine on the Sabbath could be considered "communion" but I highly doubt Messianic Jews or Gentiles like to refer to it as that so it will not be confused with the concept of Christian communion. The early church observed what every other Jew did.. that is have challah and wine on the sabbath. This was not considered "communion" in the way that Christians experience it. It is part of the meal at dinner that one shares along with family and or family and friends. It is a communion in the sense of the fact that people are eating together and sharing the in the commandment to keep the sabbath holy. But Yeshua of course is not an issue at all in Orthodox Jewish tradition. In the Messianic belief of course Yeshua is a part of everything but he is not the reason why bread and wine are eaten on the sabbath by Messianics. So no, communion in the Christian sense isn't even a factor for the majority of Messianic believers.

But there are some Messianic congregations that do accept the Christian concept of "communion" but they put their own spin on it tying it with Judaism.. and this practice by these particular Messianics is not the norm at all.

In the Messianic community, Yeshua is remember constantly. It is not on a special holiday that he is remembered. He is the center of Messianic life and is honored and remember everyday. Hence the name "Messianic".

Missy

Thanks for clarifying that Missy. Like you said, I wasn't comfortable in using the term 'communion' when asking the question because I realised from the thread that technically it wasn't like the post-Constantine Christian communion that I currently partake in. It's a shame more churches do not delve more into early church history so that we can get a better understanding of what went on back then.


God bless you
 
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