And just where are the words eternal death in all of that?
and how can they be eternal chains when they only are held in them unto the judgment of the great day?
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The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism
- Thread starter FineLinen
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And just where are the words eternal death in all of that?
and how can they be eternal chains when they only are held in them unto the judgment of the great day?
Lazarus Short
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- Apr 6, 2016
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"...we have the redemption through His blood, the release from sins, coming with the rich gift which He poured into us with all wisdom and intelligence; making known to us the mystery of His intention, with His decision which He had determined with Himself to administer at the completion of the periods, when everything was to be centred again in the Messiah, both upon the heavens and a upon the earth : in Him, by Whom we have also inherited according to His purpose Who foresees and energizes all things, which have been prepared to accomplish the intention of His will;..."
Please note:
The restitution of the all is a "mystery" that must be "made known" by the Lord. This mystery is His "intention" & His "decision" determined "with Himself".
There is no consultation with anyone, it is exclusively determined within Himself!
Please note:
The restitution of the all is a "mystery" that must be "made known" by the Lord. This mystery is His "intention" & His "decision" determined "with Himself".
There is no consultation with anyone, it is exclusively determined within Himself!
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How to change the world
The ninth week of SEAL training is referred to as Hell Week. It is six days of no sleep, constant physical and mental harassment and one special day at the Mud Flats.
The Mud Flats are an area between San Diego and Tijuana where the water runs off and creates the Tijuana slues—a swampy patch of terrain where the mud will engulf you.
It is on Wednesday of Hell Week that you paddle down to the mud flats and spend the next 15 hours trying to survive the freezing-cold mud, the howling wind and the incessant pressure from the instructors to quit.
As the sun began to set that Wednesday evening, my training class, having committed some "egregious infraction of the rules" was ordered into the mud. The mud consumed each man till there was nothing visible but our heads.
The instructors told us we could leave the mud if only five men would quit—just five men and we could get out of the oppressive cold.
Looking around the mud flat, it was apparent that some students were about to give up. It was still over eight hours till the sun came up—eight more hours of bone-chilling cold.
The chattering teeth and shivering moans of the trainees were so loud it was hard to hear anything. And then, one voice began to echo through the night—one voice raised in song.
The song was terribly out of tune, but sung with great enthusiasm.
One voice became two, and two became three, and before long everyone in the class was singing. We knew that if one man could rise above the misery then others could as well.
The instructors threatened us with more time in the mud if we kept up the singing—but the singing persisted. And somehow, the mud seemed a little warmer, the wind a little tamer and the dawn not so far away.
If I have learned anything in my time traveling the world, it is the power of hope.
The power of one person—Washington, Lincoln, King, Mandela and even a young girl from Pakistan named Malala—can change the world by giving people hope.
So, if you want to change the world, start singing when you're up to your neck in mud.
Source: The commencement address by Admiral William H. McRaven, ninth commander of U.S. Special Operations Command, at the University of Texas at Austin on 17 May 2014
The ninth week of SEAL training is referred to as Hell Week. It is six days of no sleep, constant physical and mental harassment and one special day at the Mud Flats.
The Mud Flats are an area between San Diego and Tijuana where the water runs off and creates the Tijuana slues—a swampy patch of terrain where the mud will engulf you.
It is on Wednesday of Hell Week that you paddle down to the mud flats and spend the next 15 hours trying to survive the freezing-cold mud, the howling wind and the incessant pressure from the instructors to quit.
As the sun began to set that Wednesday evening, my training class, having committed some "egregious infraction of the rules" was ordered into the mud. The mud consumed each man till there was nothing visible but our heads.
The instructors told us we could leave the mud if only five men would quit—just five men and we could get out of the oppressive cold.
Looking around the mud flat, it was apparent that some students were about to give up. It was still over eight hours till the sun came up—eight more hours of bone-chilling cold.
The chattering teeth and shivering moans of the trainees were so loud it was hard to hear anything. And then, one voice began to echo through the night—one voice raised in song.
The song was terribly out of tune, but sung with great enthusiasm.
One voice became two, and two became three, and before long everyone in the class was singing. We knew that if one man could rise above the misery then others could as well.
The instructors threatened us with more time in the mud if we kept up the singing—but the singing persisted. And somehow, the mud seemed a little warmer, the wind a little tamer and the dawn not so far away.
If I have learned anything in my time traveling the world, it is the power of hope.
The power of one person—Washington, Lincoln, King, Mandela and even a young girl from Pakistan named Malala—can change the world by giving people hope.
So, if you want to change the world, start singing when you're up to your neck in mud.
Source: The commencement address by Admiral William H. McRaven, ninth commander of U.S. Special Operations Command, at the University of Texas at Austin on 17 May 2014
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- THE SECOND DEATH – A.E. SAXBY
“Orthodox theology holds the second death to be a state of endless torment in which the sufferers are held forever in conscious being by a continuous act of Divine preservation, with the soul object of a punishment without end. This however would in no sense be death. The second death does not perpetuate the hopeless condition of the sinner to all eternity.
What the Holy Spirit means by ‘fire and brimstone’ is ‘divine purification,’ or a judgment fire which consumes all that is antagonistic to divine law and love.
Before the Great White Throne, that vast throng, their naked spirits conscious now of the blazing holiness of God, will be subjected to the process of the second death. What those processes are, their intensity and their duration, we are not told. They will suffice, however, not in themselves to perfect, but to bring those who suffer them to that agreement with the judgment upon sin which they effect, and through the cross finally to reconcile them to God (Col. 1:20), in a subjection where He will be ‘All in all.’ When that acquiescence in judgment upon sin is reached, and applied in soul and spirit, then will be possible the final victory over death. Hence it is written that when this subjection is reached, then and only then, ‘the last enemy, death, shall be destroyed.’ ”
“Orthodox theology holds the second death to be a state of endless torment in which the sufferers are held forever in conscious being by a continuous act of Divine preservation, with the soul object of a punishment without end. This however would in no sense be death. The second death does not perpetuate the hopeless condition of the sinner to all eternity.
What the Holy Spirit means by ‘fire and brimstone’ is ‘divine purification,’ or a judgment fire which consumes all that is antagonistic to divine law and love.
Before the Great White Throne, that vast throng, their naked spirits conscious now of the blazing holiness of God, will be subjected to the process of the second death. What those processes are, their intensity and their duration, we are not told. They will suffice, however, not in themselves to perfect, but to bring those who suffer them to that agreement with the judgment upon sin which they effect, and through the cross finally to reconcile them to God (Col. 1:20), in a subjection where He will be ‘All in all.’ When that acquiescence in judgment upon sin is reached, and applied in soul and spirit, then will be possible the final victory over death. Hence it is written that when this subjection is reached, then and only then, ‘the last enemy, death, shall be destroyed.’ ”
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"I wanted to put into writing my own journey out of hell.
That is to say my journey out of the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. In a way it is a journey out of a personal hell because this doctrine did in fact torment me for a long time. As a non denominational pastor of 30 years with a full gospel Assembly of God back ground, I was reaching a place of intense inward struggle with all that I knew about Gods grace and love and acceptance, and then having to believe an alarm goes off and He transforms into a merciless judge who hates anyone who for a plethora of reasons did not come into Christ in their short span on earth.
"I fought this for a long time. Of course hell is forever. Its right there in the bible.
The only problem was that this created an ever increasing spiritual dissonance inside of me of which the effect on my life and spirituality and view of the world I did not fully comprehend.
"Could believing in eternal conscience torment make a person more judgmental, less merciful, more prone to anxiety and depression and even make carnal thoughts and temptations harder to resist? Could this undermine the gift of grace a person was promised in Christ and keep them from living in the peace and joy and love that is supposed to accompany those born again?
"I would have never guessed that could be the case. The fact is I struggled in all those things for so long. I knew the standards I was to live by but I just assumed the devil was really concentrating on me because Im a leader and we get more enemy fire.
But when I finally opened my heart and began to read the volumes of online study available from the well researched and well reasoned proponents of Universal Reconciliation, It was like a desert was being filled with streams of living water down inside of me. I began to experience the grace powered life like never before.
"As I look back I realize that my spirit never really bore witness with the doctrine of eternal hell."
by Pastor Mark at
My personal escape from hell
That is to say my journey out of the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. In a way it is a journey out of a personal hell because this doctrine did in fact torment me for a long time. As a non denominational pastor of 30 years with a full gospel Assembly of God back ground, I was reaching a place of intense inward struggle with all that I knew about Gods grace and love and acceptance, and then having to believe an alarm goes off and He transforms into a merciless judge who hates anyone who for a plethora of reasons did not come into Christ in their short span on earth.
"I fought this for a long time. Of course hell is forever. Its right there in the bible.
The only problem was that this created an ever increasing spiritual dissonance inside of me of which the effect on my life and spirituality and view of the world I did not fully comprehend.
"Could believing in eternal conscience torment make a person more judgmental, less merciful, more prone to anxiety and depression and even make carnal thoughts and temptations harder to resist? Could this undermine the gift of grace a person was promised in Christ and keep them from living in the peace and joy and love that is supposed to accompany those born again?
"I would have never guessed that could be the case. The fact is I struggled in all those things for so long. I knew the standards I was to live by but I just assumed the devil was really concentrating on me because Im a leader and we get more enemy fire.
But when I finally opened my heart and began to read the volumes of online study available from the well researched and well reasoned proponents of Universal Reconciliation, It was like a desert was being filled with streams of living water down inside of me. I began to experience the grace powered life like never before.
"As I look back I realize that my spirit never really bore witness with the doctrine of eternal hell."
by Pastor Mark at
My personal escape from hell
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he-man
he-man
Shame on you:
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor?
2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Deuteronomy 27:18 Cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Luke 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
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The Atonement: What did it really accomplish?
#1. At one ment
#2. "Helpless ungodly" welcomed Home to Abba..
#3. Helpless sinners were not good and loveable.
#4. Helpless sinners proclaimed free from guilt through the blood of the Lamb.
#5. God's free "gift" outweighs all transgression.
# 6. The reconciliation is "now."
#7. The comparison? There is no comparison.
#8. The "free gift outweighs" the transgression.
#9. The free gift "immeasurably" outweighs the transgression.
#10. The "mass" of mankind "constituted sinners" the "mass of mankind "constituted righteous".
#11. Polus= polus. The mass made sinners= the mass made righteous.
#12. Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins, AKA the "especially"/ the "elect".
#13. Jesus Christ is the propitiation for "helpless sinners."
#14. The result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race.
#15.The result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.
Romans 5
"For already, while we were still helpless, Christ at the right moment died for the ungodly.
7
Why, it is scarcely conceivable that any one would die for a simply just man, although for a good and lovable man perhaps some one, here and there, will have the courage even to lay down his life.
8
But God gives proof of His love to us in Christ's dying for us while we were still sinners.
9
If therefore we have now been pronounced free from guilt through His blood, much more shall we be delivered from God's anger through Him.
10
For if while we were hostile to God we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, it is still more certain that now that we are reconciled, we shall obtain salvation through Christ's life.
11
And not only so, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now obtained that reconciliation.
12
What follows? This comparison. Through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and so death passed to all mankind in turn, in that all sinned.
13
For prior to the Law sin was already in the world; only it is not entered in the account against us when no Law exists.
14
Yet Death reigned as king from Adam to Moses even over those who had not sinned, as Adam did, against Law. And in Adam we have a type of Him whose coming was still future.
15
But God's free gift immeasurably outweighs the transgression. For if through the transgression of the one individual the mass of mankind have died, infinitely greater is the generosity with which God's grace, and the gift given in His grace which found expression in the one man Jesus Christ, have been bestowed on the mass of mankind.
16
And it is not with the gift as it was with the results of one individual's sin; for the judgement which one individual provoked resulted in condemnation, whereas the free gift after a multitude of transgressions results in acquittal.
17
For if, through the transgression of the one individual, Death made use of the one individual to seize the sovereignty, all the more shall those who receive God's overflowing grace and gift of righteousness reign as kings in Life through the one individual, Jesus Christ.
18
It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.
19
For as through the disobedience of the one individual the mass of mankind were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous."
Romans Chapter 5 - Weymouth New Testament
The mass = polus
The mass of mankind are "made sinners."
The mass of mankind are "made righteous."
The equation is equal on each side
#1. At one ment
#2. "Helpless ungodly" welcomed Home to Abba..
#3. Helpless sinners were not good and loveable.
#4. Helpless sinners proclaimed free from guilt through the blood of the Lamb.
#5. God's free "gift" outweighs all transgression.
# 6. The reconciliation is "now."
#7. The comparison? There is no comparison.
#8. The "free gift outweighs" the transgression.
#9. The free gift "immeasurably" outweighs the transgression.
#10. The "mass" of mankind "constituted sinners" the "mass of mankind "constituted righteous".
#11. Polus= polus. The mass made sinners= the mass made righteous.
#12. Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins, AKA the "especially"/ the "elect".
#13. Jesus Christ is the propitiation for "helpless sinners."
#14. The result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race.
#15.The result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.
Romans 5
"For already, while we were still helpless, Christ at the right moment died for the ungodly.
7
Why, it is scarcely conceivable that any one would die for a simply just man, although for a good and lovable man perhaps some one, here and there, will have the courage even to lay down his life.
8
But God gives proof of His love to us in Christ's dying for us while we were still sinners.
9
If therefore we have now been pronounced free from guilt through His blood, much more shall we be delivered from God's anger through Him.
10
For if while we were hostile to God we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, it is still more certain that now that we are reconciled, we shall obtain salvation through Christ's life.
11
And not only so, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now obtained that reconciliation.
12
What follows? This comparison. Through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and so death passed to all mankind in turn, in that all sinned.
13
For prior to the Law sin was already in the world; only it is not entered in the account against us when no Law exists.
14
Yet Death reigned as king from Adam to Moses even over those who had not sinned, as Adam did, against Law. And in Adam we have a type of Him whose coming was still future.
15
But God's free gift immeasurably outweighs the transgression. For if through the transgression of the one individual the mass of mankind have died, infinitely greater is the generosity with which God's grace, and the gift given in His grace which found expression in the one man Jesus Christ, have been bestowed on the mass of mankind.
16
And it is not with the gift as it was with the results of one individual's sin; for the judgement which one individual provoked resulted in condemnation, whereas the free gift after a multitude of transgressions results in acquittal.
17
For if, through the transgression of the one individual, Death made use of the one individual to seize the sovereignty, all the more shall those who receive God's overflowing grace and gift of righteousness reign as kings in Life through the one individual, Jesus Christ.
18
It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.
19
For as through the disobedience of the one individual the mass of mankind were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous."
Romans Chapter 5 - Weymouth New Testament
The mass = polus
The mass of mankind are "made sinners."
The mass of mankind are "made righteous."
The equation is equal on each side
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0
It has been well said that there is no such thing as "pure evil ;" "so unrestrained is the inundation of the principle of good into selfishness and sin itself." - EMERSON on Circles. "There is a soul of goodness in things evil," says the greatest of Englishmen.
We have hints in Scripture that by evil permitted and overcome, something is gained which, perhaps, could not have been otherwise had, e.g., there is "more joy over one repenting sinner, than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance." And if there is more joy in heaven, there is more love on earth from the same source, "for to whom little is forgiven the same loves little." Sin is very often the result of ignorance; how far this consideration goes I do not decide, but may there not be an element of ignorance in all sin?
Nor should we forget that in sinning, if I may say so, the raw material is very often the same as in the practice of virtue, but turned the wrong way - "there is," says EMERSON, "no moral deformity but is a good passion out of place. I have steadily enforced the guilt of sin, but it remains true that to sin greatly often demands the same qualities, that rightly used would have been great virtues.
Whatever the value of the above considerations, the larger hope has nothing to fear from any theory of sin that can be maintained. Take a lenient view of human guilt, and you thereby shut out endless penalty. Take the very sternest view, and the perpetuation of this awful hostility to God becomes inconceivable.
A further consideration remains. As creation is for the Deity to enter into finite relations, and to subject His plans to definite limits, so, perhaps, evil, physical and moral, is in a sense inevitable. And it may be that, by the training and collision, thus involved, a higher type of character is formed than would be otherwise possible, e.g., self sacrifice, self restraint, sympathy, mercy, etc., seem to require a background of evil for their existence; although I believe that certain results of this have not always been thought out by its advocates.
A creation thus advancing to perfection by a certain, if slow, victory over evil, may possibly be a nobler thing than a creation so safeguarded as to have never fallen. In S. BERNARD'S words, "ordinatissimum est minus interdum ordinate fieri aliquid." - Ep. xxvi., ad. Eug. iii. I shall neither affirm, nor deny, these propositions. But morality and reason require one thing, viz., that creation shall be in fact so advancing; that the victory over evil shall be a victory indeed, and not a compromise - i.e., they require not partialism in any form, but Universalism.
Evil in process of extinction, nay, in the divine plan already extinguished - is tolerable.
Evil permitted for a time, in order that it may be more completely vanquished, and men thereby trained - that we can understand. But when evil, moral or physical, becomes perpetual; when it ceases to be a means and becomes an end; when it is no merely passing stain, but is wrought into the very tissue of the universe - enduring as God Himself: when God is taught as freely and deliberately permitting the entrance of evil, destined, as He knows, to be an eternal horror in His creation; then we are compelled to refuse assent, compelled by our very reverence for God, by the supreme voice within, which if God anywhere speaks with man, is indeed His voice.
-Christ Triumphant-
We have hints in Scripture that by evil permitted and overcome, something is gained which, perhaps, could not have been otherwise had, e.g., there is "more joy over one repenting sinner, than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance." And if there is more joy in heaven, there is more love on earth from the same source, "for to whom little is forgiven the same loves little." Sin is very often the result of ignorance; how far this consideration goes I do not decide, but may there not be an element of ignorance in all sin?
Nor should we forget that in sinning, if I may say so, the raw material is very often the same as in the practice of virtue, but turned the wrong way - "there is," says EMERSON, "no moral deformity but is a good passion out of place. I have steadily enforced the guilt of sin, but it remains true that to sin greatly often demands the same qualities, that rightly used would have been great virtues.
Whatever the value of the above considerations, the larger hope has nothing to fear from any theory of sin that can be maintained. Take a lenient view of human guilt, and you thereby shut out endless penalty. Take the very sternest view, and the perpetuation of this awful hostility to God becomes inconceivable.
A further consideration remains. As creation is for the Deity to enter into finite relations, and to subject His plans to definite limits, so, perhaps, evil, physical and moral, is in a sense inevitable. And it may be that, by the training and collision, thus involved, a higher type of character is formed than would be otherwise possible, e.g., self sacrifice, self restraint, sympathy, mercy, etc., seem to require a background of evil for their existence; although I believe that certain results of this have not always been thought out by its advocates.
A creation thus advancing to perfection by a certain, if slow, victory over evil, may possibly be a nobler thing than a creation so safeguarded as to have never fallen. In S. BERNARD'S words, "ordinatissimum est minus interdum ordinate fieri aliquid." - Ep. xxvi., ad. Eug. iii. I shall neither affirm, nor deny, these propositions. But morality and reason require one thing, viz., that creation shall be in fact so advancing; that the victory over evil shall be a victory indeed, and not a compromise - i.e., they require not partialism in any form, but Universalism.
Evil in process of extinction, nay, in the divine plan already extinguished - is tolerable.
Evil permitted for a time, in order that it may be more completely vanquished, and men thereby trained - that we can understand. But when evil, moral or physical, becomes perpetual; when it ceases to be a means and becomes an end; when it is no merely passing stain, but is wrought into the very tissue of the universe - enduring as God Himself: when God is taught as freely and deliberately permitting the entrance of evil, destined, as He knows, to be an eternal horror in His creation; then we are compelled to refuse assent, compelled by our very reverence for God, by the supreme voice within, which if God anywhere speaks with man, is indeed His voice.
-Christ Triumphant-
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"And He is [the] propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
Please note
1. Jesus Christ IS propitiation.
2. He is propitiation for our sins (all of us).
3. Jesus Christ IS propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE world.
4. Whole= holos.
5. Holos is NOT monos or monon.
6. Jesus Christ is NOT propitiation for our sins ONLY/monon, but for the sins of the WHOLE world.
Yes, my friends, the Saviour of all mankind is the hilasmos of the holos!
Please note
1. Jesus Christ IS propitiation.
2. He is propitiation for our sins (all of us).
3. Jesus Christ IS propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE world.
4. Whole= holos.
5. Holos is NOT monos or monon.
6. Jesus Christ is NOT propitiation for our sins ONLY/monon, but for the sins of the WHOLE world.
Yes, my friends, the Saviour of all mankind is the hilasmos of the holos!
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FineLinen, how to you understand “propitiation”? Actually that is not a good translation of “ιλασμος.” The word “propitiation” means “appeasing” and suggests that Jesus has appeased the Father by dying on our behalf so that God punished Him instead of us for our sins. That sounds a whole lot like injustice to me.
The connotation of the word “ιλασμος” is actually “a means of mercy.”
And He Himself is the means of mercy concerning our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2)
Jesus has provided a way to make available God’s enabling grace, so that we (or anyone else in the whole world) are able to live consistently righteous lives. What a mercy that is!
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and pious lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with total command. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)
Dear Paidion: The following are a few of the translations of 1 John 2.2
1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Propitiation - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
::Jonathan Mitchell's New Testament Translation::
My friend Jonathan Mitchell I believe is hitting the mark with his N.T. translation. God needs zero appeasing. He is, and always has been for us. Sin is a disruption from our Father in which all the resources of the Glory are arrayed.
And He Himself exists continually being a propitiatory shelter around our sins (the act by which our sins are made ineffective, effecting appeasement), yet not only around those pertaining to us, but rather, even around the whole ordered system (world; cosmos; universe)!
.
The connotation of the word “ιλασμος” is actually “a means of mercy.”
And He Himself is the means of mercy concerning our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2)
Jesus has provided a way to make available God’s enabling grace, so that we (or anyone else in the whole world) are able to live consistently righteous lives. What a mercy that is!
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and pious lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with total command. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)
Dear Paidion: The following are a few of the translations of 1 John 2.2
1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Propitiation - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
::Jonathan Mitchell's New Testament Translation::
My friend Jonathan Mitchell I believe is hitting the mark with his N.T. translation. God needs zero appeasing. He is, and always has been for us. Sin is a disruption from our Father in which all the resources of the Glory are arrayed.
And He Himself exists continually being a propitiatory shelter around our sins (the act by which our sins are made ineffective, effecting appeasement), yet not only around those pertaining to us, but rather, even around the whole ordered system (world; cosmos; universe)!
.
Last edited:
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Search= "eternal death"
Please modify your search and try again
Search "everlasting death"
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Search "everlasting punishment"
One entry found Matt. 25:46
“The word aidios (not aionios) was in universal use among the non-Christian Greek Jews of our Savior’s day, to convey the idea of eternal duration, and was used by them to teach endless punishment.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of His disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which His contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment?
Jesus never adopted the language of His day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation.”
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Pneuma3 posted
Why do you not believe the world will be saved as it was Gods plan in sending Jesus?
If the world is not saved then it would be more then a mite short it would be a catastrophe of epic proportions.
Read the parable of the lost coin and the lost sheep. If they remain lost it is the one who lost them that suffers. Can you in all honesty say God will suffer eternally for His lack of finding them?
Why do you not believe the world will be saved as it was Gods plan in sending Jesus?
If the world is not saved then it would be more then a mite short it would be a catastrophe of epic proportions.
Read the parable of the lost coin and the lost sheep. If they remain lost it is the one who lost them that suffers. Can you in all honesty say God will suffer eternally for His lack of finding them?
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he-man
he-man
Read my lips:
found in 69 verses: everlasting G166
G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios
Thayer Definition: 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be without end, never to cease, everlasting.
destruction G3639 ὄλεθρος Thayer Definition: 1) ruin, destroy, death
1a) for the destruction of the flesh, A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a primary ollumi (to destroy, a prolonged form)
[BULLINGER] destruction. Greek. olethros. See 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1 Thessalonians 5:3. 2 Thessalonians 1:9. 1 Timothy 6:9.
2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,
Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
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Is Hell Eternal? Or Will God's Plan Fail? by Charles Pridgeon
REV. CHARLES H. PRIDGEON, M. A.
President and Founder of the Pittsburgh Bible Institute
CHAPTER I BARRIERS TO A CANDID CONSIDERATION
CHAPTER 2 THE DOCTRINE OF RESERVE AN ENEMY OF TRUTH
CHAPTER 3 WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURES
CHAPTER 4 SOME INSURMOUNTABLE DIFFICULTIES
CHAPTER 5 ETERNITY IS NOT TIME
CHAPTER 6 THE AGES PRESENTED
CHAPTER 7 THE MILLENNIAL AGE
CHAPTER 8 THE GREAT NEGLECTED AGE
CHAPTER 9 THE SIGNIFICANCE OF HADES
CHAPTER 10 A STUDY OF GEHENNA AND THE WORDS
"DESTROY” AND “DESTRUCTION ”
CHAPTER 11 THE LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE
CHAPTER 12 THE PROBLEM OF EVIL
CHAPTER 13 A SANE AND SCRIPTURAL DOCTRINE OF PUNISHMENT
CHAPTER 14 THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD ILLUMINED
CHAPTER 15 UNPARDONABLE SINS
CHAPTER 16 THE HEADSHIP OF CHRIST versus THE HEADSHIP OF ADAM
CHAPTER 17 THE ETERNAL HUMANITY OF CHRIST
CHAPTER 18 SINCE GOD IS LOVE
CHAPTER 19 GOD'S ACCOMMODATION TO A FALLEN WORLD
CHAPTER 20 THE UNSELFISHNESS OF GOD
CHAPTER 21 HAS GOD A PURPOSE IN DEATH
CHAPTER 22 THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION
CHAPTER 23 FINAL PERMENANCE OF CHARACTER
CHAPTER 24 THE LIMITATIONS OF HUMAN FREEDOM
CHAPTER 25 SPIRITISTIC TESTIMONY IRRELEVANT
CHAPTER 26 CONCERNING THE SALVATION OF ANGELS AND DEMONS
CHAPTER 27 THE WITNESS OF THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS
CHAPTER 28 THE WITNESS OF THE POETS
CHAPTER 29 CONSCIENCE MUST BE SATISFIED
CHAPTER 30 THE TEST OF USEFULNESS AS A DIVINE ACCREDITING
REV. CHARLES H. PRIDGEON, M. A.
President and Founder of the Pittsburgh Bible Institute
CHAPTER I BARRIERS TO A CANDID CONSIDERATION
CHAPTER 2 THE DOCTRINE OF RESERVE AN ENEMY OF TRUTH
CHAPTER 3 WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURES
CHAPTER 4 SOME INSURMOUNTABLE DIFFICULTIES
CHAPTER 5 ETERNITY IS NOT TIME
CHAPTER 6 THE AGES PRESENTED
CHAPTER 7 THE MILLENNIAL AGE
CHAPTER 8 THE GREAT NEGLECTED AGE
CHAPTER 9 THE SIGNIFICANCE OF HADES
CHAPTER 10 A STUDY OF GEHENNA AND THE WORDS
"DESTROY” AND “DESTRUCTION ”
CHAPTER 11 THE LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE
CHAPTER 12 THE PROBLEM OF EVIL
CHAPTER 13 A SANE AND SCRIPTURAL DOCTRINE OF PUNISHMENT
CHAPTER 14 THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD ILLUMINED
CHAPTER 15 UNPARDONABLE SINS
CHAPTER 16 THE HEADSHIP OF CHRIST versus THE HEADSHIP OF ADAM
CHAPTER 17 THE ETERNAL HUMANITY OF CHRIST
CHAPTER 18 SINCE GOD IS LOVE
CHAPTER 19 GOD'S ACCOMMODATION TO A FALLEN WORLD
CHAPTER 20 THE UNSELFISHNESS OF GOD
CHAPTER 21 HAS GOD A PURPOSE IN DEATH
CHAPTER 22 THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION
CHAPTER 23 FINAL PERMENANCE OF CHARACTER
CHAPTER 24 THE LIMITATIONS OF HUMAN FREEDOM
CHAPTER 25 SPIRITISTIC TESTIMONY IRRELEVANT
CHAPTER 26 CONCERNING THE SALVATION OF ANGELS AND DEMONS
CHAPTER 27 THE WITNESS OF THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS
CHAPTER 28 THE WITNESS OF THE POETS
CHAPTER 29 CONSCIENCE MUST BE SATISFIED
CHAPTER 30 THE TEST OF USEFULNESS AS A DIVINE ACCREDITING
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Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon
Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life." Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon
Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:
Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:
How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.
ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:
could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?
12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
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What's the difference between destruction and everlasting destruction?
The Greek word aionios, erroneously translated above as "everlasting", is the same Greek word that is often deceptively translated as eternal or everlasting at Mt.25:46.
Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:
Two Questions
2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias,
often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.
Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible.
Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!
2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)
9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)
who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)
A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).
Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.
Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.
"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).
For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.
1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.
Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
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Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":
Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
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THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION – ADLAI LOUDY
“The crowning glory of the ‘good news’ or evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ which Paul was granted the grace to bring to the ‘gentiles’ or nations, is the revelation that He will reconcile all to God.
What a marvelous outcome of God’s purpose! What a wonderful Christ Who can accomplish such a complete and glorious reconciliation! All creatures, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, reconciled in perfect peace to the great love of God through the Son of His love.
More of these untraceable honors and glories of Christ which Paul was granted the grace to reveal, could be pointed out with delight, but these will suffice to increase our faith, enrich our joy and brighten our expectation ‘in Him in Whom our lot was cast also,’ Christ Jesus our Lord, Life, and Head!
Untitled
God is the ta panta of the all!
Our God is the ALL of the all!
“The crowning glory of the ‘good news’ or evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ which Paul was granted the grace to bring to the ‘gentiles’ or nations, is the revelation that He will reconcile all to God.
What a marvelous outcome of God’s purpose! What a wonderful Christ Who can accomplish such a complete and glorious reconciliation! All creatures, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, reconciled in perfect peace to the great love of God through the Son of His love.
More of these untraceable honors and glories of Christ which Paul was granted the grace to reveal, could be pointed out with delight, but these will suffice to increase our faith, enrich our joy and brighten our expectation ‘in Him in Whom our lot was cast also,’ Christ Jesus our Lord, Life, and Head!
Untitled
God is the ta panta of the all!
Our God is the ALL of the all!
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