How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

redleghunter said:

Are you a universalist?

Click to expand...

Not in any stretch.

Free will means free choice and in this case it is the freedom to choose or not choose God. We are told that if we choose Him He will take us to heaven some day. This does in no way destroy the "good news" or the gospel (euangelion). How could this be "bad news"?

I could not choose to follow Christ until God opened my eyes and lifted me from darkness to light. Faith comes from God.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, BNR32FAN

Faith is the gift of God that is the effective cause of Salvation (Direct result).

In Him,

Bill

Click to expand...

So long as we abide and endure to the end brother Bill.

redleghunter said:

Refutes what exactly? You left out verse 16:

16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Click to expand...

Yes we all know Jesus chose the apostles yet He still feels it’s necessary to tell them they must abide in Him. Why does Jesus feel the need to tell His faithful 11 apostles to abide in Him if they cannot turn away?

redleghunter said:

I think there is a universalist thread or two on this. But there seems to be a distinction between not wanting any to perish and the Father giving Christ His sheep.

John 10: NASB

22At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

Jesus makes a distinction here who are His and not His. Earlier in the chapter Jesus says:

11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

Thus making another distinction that He lays down His life for the sheep which is an exclusive of the "all" or "the world" in other passages. Which those other passages need to be seen in the Light of the words of Christ in John 10.

Click to expand...

This still doesn’t negate that God wants everyone to repent and be saved my friend. My point is that God wants everyone to choose to repent yet not everyone does which implies that we have the free will to choose whether or not we will repent and serve God.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 2 Peter 3:9

redleghunter said:

Yes God does not want programmed worship or a puppet show. I think we need to consider what YHWH says of the covenant He would make with Israel and by extension all who are in Christ. This is the "I will" covenant and perhaps @Dave L is mentioning receiving a new heart before we act in any way goes back to this passage:

Ezekiel 36: NASB

22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23“I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29“Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. 30“I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31“Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32“I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”

Click to expand...

I believe God gives us the ability to overcome temptation and sin but we sometimes fail to exercise that ability and fall to temptation.

redleghunter said:

I think there is a universalist thread or two on this. But there seems to be a distinction between not wanting any to perish and the Father giving Christ His sheep.

John 10: NASB

22At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

Jesus makes a distinction here who are His and not His. Earlier in the chapter Jesus says:

11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

Thus making another distinction that He lays down His life for the sheep which is an exclusive of the "all" or "the world" in other passages. Which those other passages need to be seen in the Light of the words of Christ in John 10.

Click to expand...

I believe an important verse to consider here is John 10:27. His sheep hear and follow. I believe this is a prerequisite of being His sheep not a result of being His sheep. We must make a choice to follow before we become His sheep. Furthermore I believe following must be continuous journey not a one time act. The word follow can be implied as in the present tense. This would be supported by John 15 in how we must abide and Matthew 24:9-13 as well as Matthew 10:22.

Dave-W said:

Not in any stretch.

Click to expand...

Just asking as that is what came across with your use of those verses.

BNR32FAN said:

I believe an important verse to consider here is John 10:27. His sheep hear and follow. I believe this is a prerequisite of being His sheep not a result of being His sheep. We must make a choice to follow before we become His sheep. Furthermore I believe following must be continuous journey not a one time act. The word follow can be implied as in the present tense. This would be supported by John 15 in how we must abide and Matthew 24:9-13 as well as Matthew 10:22.

Click to expand...

But the Father gives them to Him. The text does not say some follow but they hear and follow.

Again if you are going to apply John 15:1-10 you have to add the full context which includes John 15:16. Where Jesus says:

16You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will remain—so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 17This is My command to you: Love one another.

As one poster pointed out if verse 16 only applies to the Apostles then so do verses 1-10. Can’t have it both ways.

If you truly want that discourse in context we have to go back to John 13 and the washing of the feet. By chapter 15 Judas just departed and Jesus departs with the 11 to Gethsamane. There was confusion as they were told one would betray Him and all of a sudden Judas is gone. Thus the discourse on the Vine and branches.

Add to this we must understand OT texts alluding to the same:

Psalm 80:8-16, Isaiah 5:1-7, Jeremiah 2:21, Ezekiel 15:1-8, 17:5–10, and 19:10–14, and Hosea 10:1

This goes beyond the verse pitting and plucking.

BNR32FAN said:

So long as we abide and endure to the end brother Bill.

Click to expand...

If you agree that faith is a gift of God, then you must know that that faith given by God will abide and endure to the end correct? Persevering by Gods power, not ours

Dave L said:

The way the gospel works. In the gospels, Jesus tells us to preach the gospel. Preaching means to announce. So when people hear the gospel followed by whoever believes has eternal life, those who believe know God saved them. And when told to repent and undergo baptism, it confirms their faith as they follow through.

But, people turn preaching the gospel into an offer of salvation for those who comply. So immediately they turn the gospel into law and make obedience, or works, the means of salvation. They say belief is a choice we must make before God will save us. So these people trust in themselves for choosing salvation and then trust in Christ only in a secondary sense.

Does God save people this way? Yes because salvation is by grace. And they like the first group believed when they heard about salvation through Christ. Had they not believed, they would not have chosen to believe. So either way, whoever believes has eternal life.

Click to expand...

I missed the oart where believing the gospel destroyed my free will. A little background here might be helpfull. Before hearing the gosoel God reveal to you 2 things, you are a sinner and God is righteous (Romans 1:18-21). This is confirmed by you conscience, in fact it's often refered to as the witness of conscience (Romans 2:15), and we are all guilty before God (Romans 3:10). That's where the gospel, you think is such an intrustion on free will comes in, thw two words that changed the world, but now...the righteousnessif God is revealed (Romans 3:21-24)

Say, if your born on a "Holodeck", and that was your reality, and you, at some point discovered or knew it was a Holodeck at some point, and/but the parameters of the programs, or all the programs you could possibly run and or choose within the Holdeck, were all chosen or put in there as possibilities, by the one who caused you to be born in there, and would he (that one) know every single choice you were gonna make or program you would choose to run at any moment, or at any time, or whatever, or would He have just created the "box", so to speak, and set it limits, parameters, a ton of possible programs, ect, and let it/him (the one born in there) have his own choice and or choices from there in the matter, and would not know specifically, or not, or what...?

And then, finally, would that be "free-will"...? Or would free-will only truly exist outside of the "box"...? (so to speak)...?

God Bless!

Hank77 said:

Some people will call odd out of the blue thoughts like this intuition, we know it's God.

Click to expand...

I think in many cases it is. There is no way, for instance, that the guy who bought the milk knew to do that intuitively.

BNR32FAN said:

I believe God gives us the ability to overcome temptation and sin but we sometimes fail to exercise that ability and fall to temptation.

Click to expand...

Yes we do if we are not walking in the Spirit.

redleghunter said:

Yes we do if we are not walking in the Spirit.

Click to expand...

Or, more accurately, "when we're not" would be more appropriate... (and "in what we are not" also, consequently)... Or in that, and/or in those moments when, that, or in what, "we are not" (walking in and with the Spirit), will come temptation to sin sometimes... Some in the "what", don't know or realize (it) though sometimes...

God Bless!

redleghunter said:

But the Father gives them to Him. The text does not say some follow but they hear and follow.

Again if you are going to apply John 15:1-10 you have to add the full context which includes John 15:16. Where Jesus says:

16You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will remain—so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 17This is My command to you: Love one another.

As one poster pointed out if verse 16 only applies to the Apostles then so do verses 1-10. Can’t have it both ways.

If you truly want that discourse in context we have to go back to John 13 and the washing of the feet. By chapter 15 Judas just departed and Jesus departs with the 11 to Gethsamane. There was confusion as they were told one would betray Him and all of a sudden Judas is gone. Thus the discourse on the Vine and branches.

Add to this we must understand OT texts alluding to the same:

Psalm 80:8-16, Isaiah 5:1-7, Jeremiah 2:21, Ezekiel 15:1-8, 17:5–10, and 19:10–14, and Hosea 10:1

This goes beyond the verse pitting and plucking.

Click to expand...

Jesus was talking directly to His apostles in verse 16. The words ye and you are a clear indication.

“Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:16‬

However in verses 5 & 6 Jesus is talking about everyone. Notice He uses the words He and a man.

“I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:5-6‬

This is undoubtedly referring to everyone.

As for the OT references I don’t see the same message being taught in these verses. I only see a similar metaphor being a vine.

BNR32FAN said:

But the apostles are undoubtedly chosen by God so this message according to Calvinism is completely irrelevant because no one who is in the vine (Jesus) would ever be cut off.

Click to expand...

I think the point is some will attach themselves to Christ but are not His. Thus the Many called few chosen and the I never knew You statements.

Judas case in point. Jesus said in John 6 that He chose all of them yet one was a devil. So that the Scriptures may be fulfilled.

So did Judas have a fighting chance or as one man told me once “boy did Pharoah and Judas get a raw deal.” ?

No need to answer just something to ponder.

MDC said:

If you agree that faith is a gift of God, then you must know that that faith given by God will abide and endure to the end correct? Persevering by Gods power, not ours

Click to expand...

If that is true I see no point of Jesus’ message in John 15:1-10.

BNR32FAN said:

Jesus was talking directly to His apostles in verse 16. The words ye and you are a clear indication.

“Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:16‬

However in verses 5 & 6 Jesus is talking about everyone. Notice He uses the words He and a man.

“I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:5-6‬

This is undoubtedly referring to everyone.

As for the OT references I don’t see the same message being taught in these verses. I only see a similar metaphor being a vine.

Click to expand...

Yet He used ye when speaking in verses 4 and 5. And in verse 10 He refers to the same audience the apostles as both in the you and ye in the same sentence.

Again Judas just left and some were wondering what’s going on and who was to betray Jesus. Then this allegory of the Vine.