How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

Strange Plane

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For me, we do them by simply doing what God tells us to do, it's completely up to us whether we do or not.

Are you actually saying that if we do nothing, then God didn't do any works through us so in turn, we don't have to worry about it? That would be way to convenient for me.

Also, and very important, did you not notice how you changed the wording of the bible there? Can you please show me the following scripture, and prove me wrong:

Faith without the works of the Holy Spirit is dead. Faith without the fruit of the Holy Spirit is dead.

I'm speaking from my own understanding and experience here but if it helps, I've heard Christians express the same thing. I think it's one of those "deeper understanding" things and not something directly stated in scripture. For me, I believe it and feel convicted that it is so.

I believe it mainly because I've seen the works of God in myself and my life. I wasn't naturally obedient, it came with being born again. It's irresistible for me, though I still miss the mark. However, I've noticed I miss the mark, only when I'm TRYING to please God. I miss it when my own fleshy interests and understandings get in the way. Does this make sense?
 
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Strange Plane

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If you believe the gospel, you have it. That is why you believe.
I don't think it works like that at all. When I was Luciferian, I was of the strange sort who believed the gospel and yet who chose to worship Lucifer for power and knowledge anyway. Believing it was true didn't save me. Instead, God turning my heart to repentance and changing me into a new creature saved me.
 
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Der Alte

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But if faith becomes a condition you must meet for salvation, the gospel becomes law and faith becomes a work.
I'd rather take Paul's word for it.
Ephesians 2:8-9
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
"Grace" is not a work, "faith" is not a work but they are required for salvation.
Mark 11:22
(22) And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
We are commanded to have faith.
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
We are commanded to live by faith. Evidently one can choose to not live by faith.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Faith is distinct from the works of the law.
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
How we obtain faith.
1 Corinthians 16:13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.
We are commanded to stand fast in the faith. Evidently one can refrain from standing fast in the faith.
1 Timothy 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.​
Evidently one can cast off their faith.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Faith without works is dead, but faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, which God must provide before you can believe in any true sense.

The scripture I read is "Faith without works is dead" period. That is a provable thing, something we can all see, faith in action. Introducing the Holy Spirit into it as you have, leaves all open to doing nothing, and claiming it's the fault of the holy spirit.

Please answer this, are you saying whatever works we do is not of our free will but the Holy Spirit, and if we do nothing, then the Holy Spirit did nothing through us, and all is well?
 
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Dave L

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I'd rather take Paul's word for it.
Ephesians 2:8-9
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
"Grace" is not a work, "faith" is not a work but they are required for salvation.
Mark 11:22
(22) And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
We are commanded to have faith.
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
We are commanded to live by faith. Evidently one can choose to not live by faith.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Faith is distinct from the works of the law.
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
How we obtain faith.
1 Corinthians 16:13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.
We are commanded to stand fast in the faith. Evidently one can refrain from standing fast in the faith.
1 Timothy 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
Evidently one can cast off their faith.
But faith/faithfulness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. So we must have the Holy Spirit before faith/faithfulness exists in us.
 
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Dave L

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When Deity talks about "Hating", you can still Love someone and hate them at the same time like we are to "hate our whole family, yet Love them also".
But God hates the wicked in some pretty serious ways without the least love for them.
 
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Dave L

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The scripture I read is "Faith without works is dead" period. That is a provable thing, something we can all see, faith in action. Introducing the Holy Spirit into it as you have, leaves all open to doing nothing, and claiming it's the fault of the holy spirit.

Please answer this, are you saying whatever works we do is not of our free will but the Holy Spirit, and if we do nothing, then the Holy Spirit did nothing through us, and all is well?
“for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) (NASB95)
 
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Strange Plane

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The scripture I read is "Faith without works is dead" period. That is a provable thing, something we can all see, faith in action. Introducing the Holy Spirit into it as you have, leaves all open to doing nothing, and claiming it's the fault of the holy spirit.

Please answer this, are you saying whatever works we do is not of our free will but the Holy Spirit, and if we do nothing, then the Holy Spirit did nothing through us, and all is well?
I will answer...

If nothing is done through you to declare the glory of God, rest assured that you are not saved and in you is NOT the Holy Spirit. That is my view.

Those who are born again have good fruits, not of themselves but of God, who lives in them by way of the Holy Spirit, and because of Jesus Christ.
 
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Kenny'sID

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(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Most are familiar with the lists of "Don't do these things or you won't see the kingdom of God"

Do you consider those to be works?

Also I'll assume you are familiar with the Scripture on the Seep and the Goats, and if not let me know and I'll get that and the other mentioned scripture up here if you need me to.

Do you consider it works when doing as Jesus says we must do there in order to stay out of Hell?

If neither of those 2 instances are works, what do you consider to be works exactly?
 
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Strange Plane

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Honestly, how could any see the glory of God, when they are blinded and can not discern Him or even His existence, through the physical world He created? When lies of the enemy are too engrained and too thick?

Surely they must see God through those who God works through? In their kindness, in their compassion; in all the beautiful works an awesome, perfectly loving, perfectly just God does through them?
 
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Kenny'sID

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“for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) (NASB95)

You didn't answer the question, not even close:

lease answer this, are you saying whatever works we do is not of our free will but the Holy Spirit, and if we do nothing, then the Holy Spirit did nothing through us, and all is well?

But if you aren't going to answer directly, and do as I've seen others do here, and throw scripture out there that doesn't address it at all and call that an answer, fine. Just know I won't ask again, and your lack of an answer means you won't, and not that you have answered.
 
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Der Alte

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But faith/faithfulness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. So we must have the Holy Spirit before faith/faithfulness exists in us.
Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
 
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Kenny'sID

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I will answer...

If nothing is done through you to declare the glory of God, rest assured that you are not saved and in you is NOT the Holy Spirit. That is my view.

Those who are born again have good fruits, not of themselves but of God, who lives in them by way of the Holy Spirit, and because of Jesus Christ.

That was not an answer. Please answer directly, and clearly, or read my last post as it addresses you as well.

EDIT All it really takes for the both of you is a yes or no, and then if you want, an explanation to follow. that way the answer is clear...that is if you want to answer clearly.
 
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Strange Plane

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Please answer this, are you saying whatever works we do is not of our free will but the Holy Spirit, and if we do nothing, then the Holy Spirit did nothing through us, and all is well?

There are two sets of works. The first set are those done by the flesh, by each of us. These are the works which are referred to as filthy rags. These are irrelevant things.

The second set are those which are done through us by the Holy Spirit. These works are only possible by the Holy Spirit in us.

There first set is not evidence of salvation as most can do what many see to be good things. Many can donate money to charity, many can go to a church a day a week and sit for an hour or so, listening to a preacher. Many can offer their neighbor help when they need it. Many can read the Bible.

As a Luciferian and before that a Satanist, I spent years studying scripture. I brought happiness to people, though I only did so to serve my own interests. I did so to further a career or to improve a reputation in order to gain trust. In other words, my works were selfish and motivated by the flesh and not by the Holy Spirit.

The second set of works is evidence of salvation and it's only possible through Jesus Christ, and made obvious by the Holy Spirit, present and acting through the saved.
 
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Dave L

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You didn't answer the question, not even close:



But if you aren't going to answer directly, and do as I've seen others do here, and throw scripture out there that doesn't address it at all and call that an answer, fine. Just know I won't ask again, and your lack of an answer means you won't, and not that you have answered.
How does this not answer your question?
 
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eleos1954

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If salvation depends on a person'e free choice, the gospel becomes law and the choice becomes a work.

Joshua 24:15

15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD

Deuteronomy 5

10
but I show covenant faithfulness to the thousands who choose me and keep my commandments.

Psalms 119:30

I choose the path of faithfulness; I am committed to your regulations.

Prov 1:29

For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Isa 56:4

For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
 
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