Philosophical / Logical problems with YEC, OEC and Theistic Evolution

trophy33

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OK, but my point is that this doesn't mean that Leviathan was a mythological creature. No links this time!:)

How could any dinosaur living in water (if you believe it is a dinosaur) make this happen, if its not a mythology, here? Do you think that a plesiosaurus was so huge he could eat the sun and so stop days from being?

This is the weirdnes of the literal reading of some biblical texts...
 
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Deborah D

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How could any dinosaur (if you believe it is a dinosaur) make this happen, if its not a mythology, here?
If Job was saying that the animal would eat the sun, I don't believe he meant that literally. Why don't you just read the article I linked to? It might answer your questions.
 
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trophy33

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I don't believe that Job meant that literally
Exactly. Thats the point of mythology. It communicates a message, but not literally.

And now, lets talk about that talking snake in the garden... :)
 
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Deborah D

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Exactly. Thats the point of mythology. It communicates a message, but not literally.
No, he was talking about a literal animal, but not referring to something it could literally do.

Edit: Are you Czech?
 
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trophy33

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No, he was talking about a literal animal, but not referring to something it could literally do.

Mythology can contain existing creatures, if you must believe that its a dinosaur :) They could use it with "big eagle" or whatever.
 
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Deborah D

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Mythology can contain existing creatures, if you must believe that its a dinosaur :) They could use it with "big eagle" or whatever.
It was nice talking to you, but my computer battery is almost dead. Blessings!
 
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Job 33:6

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No, I do not see any problem, because the Bible is not the only source about God. There is also church, logic, theology, other Christian writings, science, reason etc. I do not accept the extreme view of the Sola Scriptura, if you do...

God did not give us the Bible to speculate about scientific history. But to know about the message of salvation. He does not care if you believe that Adam was riding a dinosaur.

This is bold, yet awesome.
 
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Job 33:6

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Job 3:8
Job 3:8 says, "May those who curse days curse that day, those who are ready to rouse leviathan" (NIV). The KJV has "their mourning" but the marginal note says, "Or, Leviathan." The Hebrew is clearly, /tywl, "leviathan." Job wishes that soothsayers would have conjured up leviathan to swallow up the day of his birth (NIV note). When there was an eclipse of the sun or moon the ancients believed leviathan swallowed them so total darkness prevailed until he released his prey (Delitzsch, 1976, 78). Job may be calling on the giants Ohya and Ahya who battled Leviathan before they were destroyed in Noah’s flood according to the Book of Giants (TDOT 1995, Vol.7, 506). There is an interesting Aramaic incantation text that says, "I shall deliver you with great magic from Leviathan, the sea monster" (Ibid, 505).

Job 3:8 may be referring to the constellation Draco. In ancient times the sky was seen as a mirror image of the earth below. So the leviathan in the sea or nether world had a counter part in the sky, Draco who would swallow the sun or moon when there is an eclipse.

Interesting.

IBSS - The Bible - Genesis 1:20-23 - DAY 5: Leviathan
 
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NobleMouse

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No, I do not see any problem, because the Bible is not the only source about God. There is also church, logic, theology, other Christian writings, science, reason etc. I do not accept the extreme view of the Sola Scriptura, if you do...

God did not give us the Bible to speculate about scientific history. But to know about the message of salvation. He does not care if you believe that Adam was riding a dinosaur.
Yes, God did give us things beyond His word, but things like theology, logic, science, reason, etc... all have one thing in common - people, it all revolves around fallible, fallen, people... who weren't there in the beginning.

God did not give us logic, reason, scientific theory & the such to speculate, question, and disregard His word; He gave us His word that we might know truth and the message of salvation.

We cannot study what's observable here in the present and project an accurate picture of the beginning anymore that we can use it to project what the new heavens and new earth will be like. God is the source of His word and of creation, so when our limited understanding, logic, reason and study produce conclusions that are in contradiction with His word, then it's likely we've oversimplified or misunderstood His creation.
 
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trophy33

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We cannot study what's observable here in the present and project an accurate picture of the beginning
As someone said in this thread, with this view, you would not be able to say anything about any thing in the present, you would not be able to say that this post of yours had a cause, it might just appear to exist. You would not be able to say about a tree that it grew from a smaller tree and from a seed.

You would need to live just in the moment without any comments and thoughts about what was before.

Everything in this universe is evolving, everything is changing from something to something else.
 
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NobleMouse

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As someone said in this thread, with this view, you would not be able to say anything about any thing in the present, you would not be able to say that this post of yours had a cause, it might just appear to exist. You would not be able to say about a tree that it grew from a smaller tree and from a seed.

You would need to live just in the moment without any comments and thoughts about what was before.
I think this falls into what is called reductio ad absurdum and is an appeal to extremes such as to disprove a statement by showing it inevitably leads to a ridiculous, absurd, or impractical conclusion... addressed to whomever it was that made that statement elsewhere in this thread.

Step over into reality and sure, things like adaptation and variations within species is observable... but that is all that has ever actually been observed and is repeatable during experimentation... nobody has observed evolution from a universal common ancestor - but that's exactly what proponents of biological evolution assert--the "tree of life". A scientific theory is one that can be repeatedly verified and tested, measured, observed, etc... and evolution from a universal common ancestor fails every one of these attributes so it would seem a poor choice of words to call it a "scientific theory". It would more appropriately be called the imagination of evolution.

Everything in this universe is evolving, everything is changing from something to something else.
Ideas can evolve, processes can evolve, the way people interact and engage within a culture or across cultures can evolve, etc... but biological evolution of something changing into something else (say a small land mammal about the size of cat changing into a water mammal that can grow as large as ~200 tons) has never been observed. Ideas like these are nothing more than unsupported hypotheses.

In contrast, God's word states that creatures of the waters were created on day 5 and creatures on land were on day 6. From His word it is apparent God created major varieties of life, life did not do it on it's own as an unguided process of mutations, genetic drift, and natural selection. God's word is from God and in God there is no spot or blemish - His word is true and trustworthy.
 
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trophy33

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Ideas can evolve, processes can evolve, the way people interact and engage within a culture or across cultures can evolve, etc... but biological evolution of something changing into something else (say a small land mammal about the size of cat changing into a water mammal that can grow as large as ~200 tons) has never been observed.
Logically. Because it takes millions of years. How do you want to observe it directly? But you can observe it in fossils.
Ideas like these are nothing more than unsupported hypotheses.
Its supported by fossils, by genetics, by geology etc. And what is most important, the evolution theory works. You can predict things with the evolution model. Various kinds of medical procedures or treatmens are based on it and work.

The YEC does not allow any predictions, its totally useless. It serves only for some kind of biblical literalism apologetics, but thats all. It does not work in real world needs. It does not work in astronomy, it does not work in biology, it does not explain fossils etc.
 
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NobleMouse

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Logically. Because it takes millions of years. How do you want to observe it directly? But you can observe it in fossils.
This is a logical fallacy, a false assumption presented to support an idea - you and I don't know millions of years have passed... such an idea has zero support without making various unfalsifiable assumptions (not to mention ignoring God's word). In contrast, God's word provides a lineage of people from Adam to Christ and tells us Adam was a man (not an ape-like creature), made directly by God from the dust of the ground (not from another animal).

Its supported by fossils, by genetics, by geology etc. And what is most important, the evolution theory works. You can predict things with the evolution model. Various kinds of medical procedures or treatmens are based on it and work.
A false dichotomy - what is actually observable about fossils, genetics, and geology is not mutually exclusive to the evolutionary paradigm. Also to clarify, there is no medical procedure in the world that is based upon the idea of a the kind of view of evolution where a land-based cat-sized mammal is transformed into a 200 ton water-based mammal... instead, there are only medical treatments that capitalize on what is actually observed - variations and mutations within what was already created during the 6 days of creation. The E.Coli long-term evolution experiment is a good example... after literally 10's of thousands of generations, E.Coli was able to adapt to citrate... but still remained E.Coli - it hasn't become a mouse, a marsupial, a human, didn't grow wings, etc... this is reality after stripping away all of the imagination.

The YEC does not allow any predictions, its totally useless. It serves only for some kind of biblical literalism apologetics, but thats all. It does not work in real world needs. It does not work in astronomy, it does not work in biology, it does not explain fossils etc.
Another example of reductio ad absurdum - the truth of God's word as found in the Bible supersedes scientific predictions (whether right or wrong). YEC scientists follow the scientific method like any other scientist and are graduates from some of the same universities as those that adhere to the evolutionary paradigm. For what observable science cannot answer, they turn to God's word to help in piecing together the evidence seen today. What YEC scientists have done is helped shed light on the numerous unsupported assumptions being made in mainstream science. YEC scientists cannot take all the credit though because many ID proponents and even some atheists within the scientific community also do not support the evolutionary paradigm so it is empirically a false presentation that this is solely just some kind of biblical literalism apologetics.

Just going off your profile, it seems you've trusted in the literalism that you are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ... and presumably you believe God can and has already acted upon the physical universe in ways that breaks every known scientific law (like causing the virgin birth of Christ, raising the dead to life, dividing 5 loaves and 2 fish to feed thousands, etc...). When Jesus called to Lazarus to come out of the tomb, was there some really advanced, hidden medical equipment that had somehow revived Lazarus after days of being dead?

Odd that some would insist these events all happened as literal truth (and rightfully so), but then turn around and refute that God's word could be true about creation because they assume God won't allow light to ever go beyond the 186,282 mps known to travel in a vacuum, or that radioactive decay has always been constant and cannot be altered (even though this has been demonstrated to be alterable).

It is not my position to judge nor condemn anyone, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ - it's just a shame to see how quickly God's word is tossed out on the whims and fancies of those who are the created, not the Creator.
 
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Job 33:6

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@NobleMouse
You had stated "A false dichotomy - what is actually observable about fossils, genetics, and geology is not mutually exclusive to the evolutionary paradigm.".

The below statement is one of mine for another active topic right now.

"Tiktaalik is good evidence for common descent in that it was predicted to exist in shallow marine mid devonian rock, dated older than fish dominated rocks such as in the early devonian but younger than reptile dominated rocks such as in the Carboniferous. It's prescense in rock of shallow marine origins also lends credence to the idea that fish would evolve to walk on land in areas in which water is shallow and where this water meets land. Indeed the neighboring terrestrial mid devonian rocks did not contain tiktaalik like species, nor did the deep marine rock to the east. Only the shallow marine of what the geology shows was a continental margin.

And of course anyone can look at images of tiktaalik to see it has scales, gills and fins like a fish, while it also has a flat head and unfused neck much like an amophibious salamander. It also has robust pectoral girdles much like a salamander, and wrist bones like a salamander as well. And yet...clearly it's a fish with fins and scales. So it has features of both fish and amphibian tetrapodomorph, and it's been found in rock where it was predicted to be, specially up in the Canadian arctic, as well as vertically, lithologically and superpositionally in shallow marine rock.

And there have been other shallow marine tetrapodomorph tracks also found in the early devonian as well in Poland. Between the two, along with a whole collection of Hybrid fossils, this lends credence to the suggestion that the Cambrian, ordovician and silurian were dominated by marine fauna, and sometime in the early to mid devonian they evolved to walk on land. Then by the late devonian we have domination of strata by tetrapods and salamander like fauna. Then by the Carboniferous you have reptile like amphibians and amphibian like reptiles, lizard salamander hybrids etc.


If the first tetrapods were found in the Cambrian or ordovician, or even the Carboniferous, Permian, mesozoic (Triassic, jurassic, cretaceous) or cenozoic (tertiary, pleistocene, pliocene, miocene, oligocene etc.), it would disprove evolution. But here tiktaalik lay, between earlier fish and later amphibious salamander in the devonian."

I would like you to explain how it is that titaalik was predicted to be present in Canadian arctic shallow marine mid-devonian rock, and later discovered to be there, if not a product of a fossil succession left as remains of fish evolving into tetrapods.
 
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Job 33:6

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" The E.Coli long-term evolution experiment is a good example... after literally 10's of thousands of generations, E.Coli was able to adapt to citrate... but still remained E.Coli - it hasn't become a mouse, a marsupial, a human, didn't grow wings, etc."-noble mouse

And this is just silly because nothing about evolution suggests that bacteria should sprout limbs in a few decades. What the experiments did show however, is that bacteria over successive generations increased in fitness and continually out-competed their ancestors as a product of the fixation of novel beneficial mutations. New genetic information formed as a product of mutations and fixated as the evolved bacteria became more fit. And of course the organisms never stopped mutating nor did they stop increasing in fitness.

But never in the experiment did anyone suggest that the bacteria should sprout legs and run out of their respective beakers.

It seems dishonest of you to suggest that if evolution were true, that the e.coli should have become marsupials. Though you have been caught being dishonest before and bearing false witness, so I don't suppose I am surprised.
 
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NobleMouse

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@NobleMouse
You had stated "A false dichotomy - what is actually observable about fossils, genetics, and geology is not mutually exclusive to the evolutionary paradigm.".

The below statement is one of mine for another active topic right now.

"Tiktaalik is good evidence for common descent in that it was predicted to exist in shallow marine mid devonian rock, dated older than fish dominated rocks such as in the early devonian but younger than reptile dominated rocks such as in the Carboniferous. It's prescense in rock of shallow marine origins also lends credence to the idea that fish would evolve to walk on land in areas in which water is shallow and where this water meets land. Indeed the neighboring terrestrial mid devonian rocks did not contain tiktaalik like species, nor did the deep marine rock to the east. Only the shallow marine of what the geology shows was a continental margin.

And of course anyone can look at images of tiktaalik to see it has scales, gills and fins like a fish, while it also has a flat head and unfused neck much like an amophibious salamander. It also has robust pectoral girdles much like a salamander, and wrist bones like a salamander as well. And yet...clearly it's a fish with fins and scales. So it has features of both fish and amphibian tetrapodomorph, and it's been found in rock where it was predicted to be, specially up in the Canadian arctic, as well as vertically, lithologically and superpositionally in shallow marine rock.

And there have been other shallow marine tetrapodomorph tracks also found in the early devonian as well in Poland. Between the two, along with a whole collection of Hybrid fossils, this lends credence to the suggestion that the Cambrian, ordovician and silurian were dominated by marine fauna, and sometime in the early to mid devonian they evolved to walk on land. Then by the late devonian we have domination of strata by tetrapods and salamander like fauna. Then by the Carboniferous you have reptile like amphibians and amphibian like reptiles, lizard salamander hybrids etc.


If the first tetrapods were found in the Cambrian or ordovician, or even the Carboniferous, Permian, mesozoic (Triassic, jurassic, cretaceous) or cenozoic (tertiary, pleistocene, pliocene, miocene, oligocene etc.), it would disprove evolution. But here tiktaalik lay, between earlier fish and later amphibious salamander in the devonian."

I would like you to explain how it is that titaalik was predicted to be present in Canadian arctic shallow marine mid-devonian rock, and later discovered to be there, if not a product of a fossil succession left as remains of fish evolving into tetrapods.
Geographically, it is reasonable to expect to see life with features that have characteristics suitable for both land and water. Again, it is a false dichotomy to assume this is only possible within the evolutionary paradigm. I believe tiktaalik roseae is found among other similar aquatic and shallow water life (that is, it is not found among fossils of mammals that tend to live more further inland), correct? The only reason there are ever fossils found is because there was an event (or events) that resulted in their rapid burial so it is of no surprise to find similar life forms buried together that co-exist geographically. To the "predictive" evolutionary paradigm, great job to the scientists who predicted finding these fossils near similar life found on land and in the water...

But... (<-- there it is)

...unfortunately later discovered footprints of tetrapods being found earlier in the geologic column (conventionally dated to be some 20+ million years older) - so the predicted finding the alleged transition from water to land was found in exactly the wrong place in the column???

@myst33 this is the "predictive" aspects of the evolutionary paradigm - suggesting fossils will be found where similar life forms are found (doesn't take a PhD to guess that) and getting it out of order with the footprints (and while this happened with tiktaalik, it has actually happened with other fossils as well where the footprints are found "millions of years" before the first known fossil that created the footprint - and so, the entire dating system of the geologic column comes under question).

Interestingly, there continues to be lobe-finned fish today... so animals like tiktaalik aren't a transition that happened some 375 million years ago, they in fact still exist today. Komatiite, As you indicated in another post (perhaps a different topic within CF), you said something to the effect that evolution makes sense as God's way as this allows for life to adapt to changing and different environments. Unfortunately, this (again) is a false dichotomy and is not exclusive to the evolutionary paradigm, but also fits within the view that God allows for variability of life, and that He is the author of life and already created the major groupings of life during the 6 days of creation - just as it says in His word.

This is almost amusing... okay, okay, since your view of God is that God is restricted to carrying out His plan by natural means that are known to scientists, explain this:

How did Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead when He called him out of the tomb? My view is that God can and will work in supernatural ways and can create a universe that is billions of light years wide in a day, can create life in a day, can raise the dead to life, and does all with His living and all-powerful word... so while I cannot explain it in human scientific terms, I believe Jesus simply only had to call out, "Lazarus, come out!" that this is what raised Lazarus to life... but let's see how you scientifically explain this - or perhaps you tend to waffle back and forth: that Jesus did do miracles, but used only natural means for all of creation - even though His word tells us that creation was just as miraculous as raising the dead to life and both are written as matter-of-fact, it happened.

I'll address your E.Coli post separately :]
 
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NobleMouse

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" The E.Coli long-term evolution experiment is a good example... after literally 10's of thousands of generations, E.Coli was able to adapt to citrate... but still remained E.Coli - it hasn't become a mouse, a marsupial, a human, didn't grow wings, etc."-noble mouse

And this is just silly because nothing about evolution suggests that bacteria should sprout limbs in a few decades. What the experiments did show however, is that bacteria over successive generations increased in fitness and continually out-competed their ancestors as a product of the fixation of novel beneficial mutations. New genetic information formed as a product of mutations and fixated as the evolved bacteria became more fit. And of course the organisms never stopped mutating nor did they stop increasing in fitness.

But never in the experiment did anyone suggest that the bacteria should sprout legs and run out of their respective beakers.

It seems dishonest of you to suggest that if evolution were true, that the e.coli should have become marsupials. Though you have been caught being dishonest before and bearing false witness, so I don't suppose I am surprised.
Oh you're always so quick to employ ad hominem tactics ("It seems dishonest of you...") - always such a jokester.

I never indicated that it was the expectations of the scientists conducting the experiment that life would come running out of beakers, you said that. Evolution; however, does suggest that is exactly what would happen given enough time, given enough generations... and yes that IS silly - very inane indeed.

@myst33
Komatiite and I have been round and round with these discussions and it always goes the same: I point out the assumptions and errors made within secular science and he asks me to read geological maps and tries to discredit my character. It's a fun game we play from time to time. With Komatiite being a geologist, he knows very well the many assumptions within his field: things like the assumptions and errors like I called out in the geologic column, radiometric dating (assuming a constant rate of decay, assuming an always closed system, assuming a known number of starting parent/daughter elements, assuming God only created parent elements, etc...), not to mention the fact that some of these elements like U238 have such long half-lives today (4.5 billion yrs for Uranium 238) so this will naturally tend to give long ages because we're working with large numbers, and the fact that many times radiometric dating doesn't give the correct age for rocks of known age.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Komatiite, this will always be a difficult position for you because while I don't know much about geology and you can keep trying to use this to discredit me (and by extension, that believing God's regarding creation is also discredited), I can just simply google to learn more about things like topographical map surveys, learn about contour lines and spot elevations, and that contour lines connect contiguous points of the same altitude (called an "isohypse") and that every point on the contour line of 100 meters elevation represents 100 meters above the mean sea level. Sure, I can learn and understand things like that - it is not beyond my mental grasp.

That is not the issue though.

No matter how much you could google how God really made all of creation, it would do nothing for you believing what His word says - it's a matter of faith. It is for this reason I keep calling out the many assumptions and errors made within the conventional scientific views of history. There are also erroneous assumptions within the YEC scientific community as well I'm sure, but that is because we are all human, we are all finite, and we are all fallen. Only God is infinite and only His word is true. Your issue isn't with me or what creationists believe, your issue is with you and believing God's word. You already believe it as it relates to your salvation, you've given your life to Christ - your theology is good there; but, you continue to hold Genesis and the account of creation at arm's length because it contradicts what you've been taught on how to interpret geology. Jesus and every OT/NT author in the Bible all affirm the events of Genesis as historical so this isn't some desperate grasping at straws by a few weirdos in the theological community. It was what was always believed until some started to stray from this understanding. You seriously think that the 4th commandment about the Sabbath was written (by God... on stone... twice) because creation was a period that spanned billions of years?? Here is the 4th commandment:

“the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates” (Exodus 20:10).

Moving onto the next verse:

"For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." (Exodus 20:11).

So, from the very beginning when God revealed this truth, it was understood that God made heaven and earth and this was all in 6 days (regardless of what Darwin or Lyell believed). As I've stated before, this is not a matter of salvation, but a matter of authority and this is clearly a case of placing man's word above God's. When you say, "but why would God leave all of this evidence behind to deceive us then?" ask yourself who told you that it was millions or billions of years old. Was it God? I don't think so. Remember this 100 posts from now and 1,000 posts from now when you continue to keep insisting that God's word is somehow untrue and that billions of years and evolution as invented only in the minds of men is the only possible answer.
 
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