Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Der Alter said:

The same word "aionion" is translated "everlasting" and "eternal." The punishment lasts as long as the life.

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??? said:

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

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??? said:

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

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Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

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Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?

What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?

Original Happy Camper said:

God knows where we are it us that finds him.

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Dear Camper: The living God indeed knows where we are. The Lord declares "You did NOT choose Me I chose you". There are those who imagine they sought God, but they are but responding to the call of Him into their wee lives.
We hear talk about men searching for God or finding God. Their search however is very much related to the fact that God has first sought them.

"The Christian faith begins not with a big DO but with a big DONE." -Watchman Nee-

ClementofA said:

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.
Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.
While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:
The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."
Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."
Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."...

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A large wall of text which means nothing. None of this specifically addresses anything in my post.
Versions are irrelevant. There are many "versions" printed up to specifically support the doctrine of certain groups such as JST which supports Mormon teachings and NWT which supports Jehovah Witness teaching.
What is required is a word study by competent scholars which shows from historical examples how certain words should be translated. See e.g. the definition of aionios from BDAG which cites 69 historical sources which guided the translation of the scholars.

Original Happy Camper said:

God knows where we are it us that finds him.

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He Comes; He Calls; We Follow

By John Gavazzoni

One of the many fundamental truths hidden in plain sight in the Bible, is the truth that when God calls we come, and when He commissions, we go forth in His name....PERIOD! The general and popular concept that God's call is a matter of an offer to come, and His commission is an offer to go forth serving, each respectively subject to our agreement, is the height of contrariety in respect to how Jesus, as Lord, operates administratively in matters of the kingdom of God. Jesus' choice of a word to indicate the effect of the call of God sets the scene for our understanding: In Jn. 6:44, Jesus testified that, "No man can come unto me, except the Father who hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (KJV)

Though the Authorized Version (King James Version) makes it clear that the action of coming to Christ is not set in motion by our choice to do so, but by the action of the Father, without which NO MAN can come to Christ, yet it, along with other conventional translations, does not make clear the force of the Father's "call." The "call" is really not merely a "call." The Greek word has a far greater force than "call." The force of the Greek word falls nowhere short of "drag." What Jesus really said, in the choice of His wording, was that no man is able to come to Him unless the Father drags that one.

Continued below

He Comes; He Calls; We Follow

Der Alter said:

A large wall of text which means nothing. None of this specifically addresses anything in my post.
Versions are irrelevant. There are many "versions" printed up to specifically support the doctrine of certain groups such as JST which supports Mormon teachings and NWT which supports Jehovah Witness teaching.
What is required is a word study by competent scholars which shows from historical examples how certain words should be translated. See e.g. the definition of aionios from BDAG which cites 69 historical sources which guided the translation of the scholars.

αἰώνιος (ία ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos.,Bell. 4, 461αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv. [1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

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Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

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Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

ClementofA said:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

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Dear Clement: The equation is absolutely clear! The same polus "constituted sinners is the identical polus "constituted righteous."

The radical pas word of ALL is equally decisive! Everything (absolutely everything) of thrones & dominions & principalities or powers are made by Him & for Him!

The super radical word "the all" of ta panta rings loud and clear!

From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends

http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Saxby/GodInCreationRedemptionJudgmentAndConsummation.htm

ClementofA said:

Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

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UR deception at its finest. Here is the complete definition at your link. LSJ is a classical Greek lexicon, there are many changes between classical and the koine of the Bible. Note which meaning LSJ assigns to the word in specific NT vss. The NT examples follow the nearest definition, which in all instances is perpetual, eternal.

Clem said:

Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."

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Irrelevant, Moulton & Milligan is a classical Greek lexicon and only cites non-Biblical examples.
Why did you omit Thayer and Abbott and Smith, at the same link, both of which refute your assumptions/presuppositions?

Clem said:

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

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Irrelevant I can show you several examples in the NT where "the whole world/all the world" cannot mean the entire planet earth.

Clem" said:

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:
Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

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Thank you for this unsupported opinion what word(s) you think Jesus or any NT writer should have used to express eternal etc.

Der Alter said:

Thank you for this unsupported opinion what word(s) you think Jesus or any NT writer should have used to express eternal etc.

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aïdios

Vine's Expository Dictionary

Eternal - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words - Bible Dictionary

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin

ga

FineLinen said:

Dear Clement: The equation is absolutely clear! The same polus "constituted sinners is the identical polus "constituted righteous."
The radical pas word of ALL is equally decisive! Everything (absolutely everything) of thrones & dominions & principalities or powers are made by Him & for Him!
The super radical word "the all" of ta panta rings loud and clear!
From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends

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Oh goody two UR-ites agreeing that their unsupported opinions support UR doctrine. No, zero, none lexical, grammatical or historical evidence. And of course ignoring the other 31,172 verses in the Bible.

FineLinen said:

aïdios
Vine's Expository Dictionary

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Another UR-ite deciding which word(s) a NT writer should have used to express "eternal." Interesting that you chose the word "aidios."
In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” In Rom 16:26 Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios,” in Rom 1:20. In Rom 16:26 by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

FineLinen said:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchamin

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The unbiquitous link to UR favorite Gerry Beauchamin, who has no stated or demonstrated expertise in Hebrew, Greek or Bible history, and his self published, with no scholarly reviews, book at some obscure publisher in California.

The Bible is against annihilation. Eternal conscious torment, which is Biblical, scares me a check of a lot more than just being wiped away out of existence, body and soul, forever. If hell is just a grave where souls are not being aware nor conscious of their surroundings and totally wiped out of existence at the Judgement, then why did Jesus say in Matthew 5:29-30 and Mark 9:42-48 to avoid hell at all costs?
You might say, "There is no pain in hell, but you will miss the opportunity for eternal life and you will not get it." But people burning hell ceaselessly will wish to be wiped out of existence body and soul. And if annihilation is Biblical, then would not the smoke of the torment of those who reject God, as described in Revelation 14:10-11?

Der Alter said:

LSJ is a classical Greek lexicon there are many changes between classical and the koine of the Bible.

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If LSJ were exclusively a "classical Greek lexicon" it wouldn't be referencing NT and or other Koine Greek texts.

Der Alter said:

Note which meaning LSJ assigns to the word in specific NT vss. The NT examples follow the nearest definition, which in all instances is perpetual, eternal.

αἰώνιος, ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti. 37d, Hebrews 9:12 : —
1. lasting for an age (αἰών 11), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. ἀΐδιος, Plot. 3.7.3), μέθη Pl. R. 363d; ἀνώλεθρον.. ἀλλ' οὐκ αἰώνιον Id. Lg. 904a, cf. Epicur. Sent. 28; αἰ. κατὰ ψυχὴν ὄχλησις Id. Nat. 131 G.; κακά, δεινά, Phld. Herc. 1251.18, D. 1.13; αἰ. ἀμοιβαῖς βασανισθησόμενοι ib.19; τοῦ αἰ. θεοῦ [perpetual, eternal] Romans 16:26, Ti.Locr. 96c; οὐ χρονίη μοῦνον.. ἀλλ' αἰωνίη Aret. CA 1.5; αἰ. διαθήκη, νόμιμον, πρόσταγμα, LXX [perpetual, eternal] Genesis 9:16, Ex. 27.21, To. 1.6; ζωή [perpetual, eternal] Matthew 25:46, Porph. Abst. 4.20; κόλασις [perpetual, eternal] Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg. p.278J.; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. [perpetual, eternal] 2 Timothy 1:9 : opp. πρόσκαιρος, [perpetual, eternal] 2 Corinthians 4:18.
2. holding an office or title for life, perpetual, γυμνασίαρχος CPHerm. 62.
3. = Lat. saecularis, Phleg. Macr. 4.
4. Adv. -ίως eternally, νοῦς ἀκίνητος αἰ. πάντα ὤν Procl. Inst. 172, cf. Simp. in Epict. p.77D.; perpetually, μισεῖν Sch. E. Alc. 338.
5. αἰώνιον, τό, = ἀείζωον τὸ μέγα, Ps.- Dsc. 4.88.​

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You've added all the "perpetual, eternal" remarks in square brackets. They are not in LSJ. Note also that the word "perpetual" does not necessarily mean unending, but can mean:

1. "holding something (such as an office) for life"
2. " indefinitely long-continued"
3. "blooming continuously throughout the season"
Definition of PERPETUAL

Furthermore, note also LSJ's 2nd definition "holding an office or title for life" & LSJ's 3rd definition "= Lat. saecularis", i.e. aionios equals the Latin word saecularis:

"from Late Latin saecularis "worldly, secular, pertaining to a generation or age," from Latin saecularis "of an age, occurring once in an age," from saeculum "age, span of time, lifetime, generation, breed." " secular | Origin and meaning of secular by Online Etymology Dictionary


saecŭlāris (sēcŭ-), e, adj. [saeculum],

I. of or belonging to a saeculum: ludi, secular games, celebrated at very long intervals (the interval was fixed, in the time of Augustus, at one hundred and twenty years), and continuing three days and nights, Varr. and Liv. ap. Censor. de Die Nat. 17; Suet. Aug. 31; id. Dom. 4; id. Vit. 2; Plin. 7, 48, 49, § 159; Tac. A. 11, 11: carmen, a hymn sung at the secular games, a secular hymn; the best known hymn of this character is that composed by Horace, at the command of Augustus, to be sung at the secular games, A. U. C. 737; cf. Suet. Vit. Hor.

1. • Hence, substt.
     1. A. saecŭlāres, ium, m. (sc. ludi), the secular games, Suet. Claud. 21.
     2. B. saecŭlārĭa, ium, n. (sc. sacra), the secular games, Val. Max. 2, 4, 4 al.
   • II. Worldly, temporal, profane, lay, secular; pagan, heathen (eccl. Lat.): homines (opp. monachi), Hier. Ep. 60, 11: historia, Sedul. in Conc. post Ep. 7, 9:exempla, Tert. Exhort. ad Cast. 13 (al. saeculi): feminae quaedam (Dido, Lucretia), id. ib. 13 fin.
     As subst.: saecŭlārĭa, ium, n., worldly matters: redditur in culpā pastor saecularia servans, Commod. 94, 69.
     Hence, adv.: saecŭlārĭter, in a worldly manner (eccl. Lat.): mulierem saeculariter ornari, Cypr. Testim. 3, 36.

Lewis and Short
Lewis & Short

"Latin saecularis is given as a synonym of Greek aiônios":

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=ai)w/nios

"saecularis is the adjective of saeculum (age)"

"in the Latin vulgate, Jerome translated aiônios in one sentence both with aeternum and saecularis:"

"Titus 1:2 (Textus Receptus)

επ ελπιδι ζωης αιωνιου ην επηγγειλατο ο αψευδης θεος προ χρονων αιωνιων

in spem vitae aeternae quam promisit qui non mentitur Deus ante tempora saecularia

this is the definition of saecularis, obviously synonymous with aiônios"

Latin saecularis

"saeculāris e (sēc-), adj.,of a saeculum: ludi, Ta."
Lewis

"saeculum or saeclum (not sēc-), ī, n1 SA-, a race, generation, age, the people of any time: serit arbores quae alteri saeclo prosint, Caecil. ap. C.: saeculorum reliquorum iudicium: huius saeculi error: o nostri infamia saecli, O.: grave Pyrrhae, H.: beatissimi saeculi ortu, Ta.: aurea Saecula, V.: Fecunda culpae saecula, H.—Fig., the spirit of the age, fashion: nec conrumpere et conrumpi saeculum vocatur, Ta.—Of time, a lifetime, generation, age: in quo (anno), quam multa hominum saecula teneantur: Aesculus Multa virūm volvens durando saecula vincit, V.—A hundred years, century, age: duobus prope saeculis ante, quam, etc.: Saeculo festas referente luces, H.: aliquot saeculis post: quorum ornatūs tot saecula manserant: ex omnium saeculorum memoriā: prope modum saeculi res in unum diem cumulavit, Cu.: saeclis effeta senectus, with years, V."
Lewis

Der Alter said:

Irrelevant, Moulton & Milligan is a classical Greek lexicon and only cites non-Biblical examples.

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Clearly you are misinformed and wrong in both of your opinions that Moulton & Milligan is (1) "a classical Greek lexicon" & (2) is "Irrelevant":

"J. H. Moulton and G. Milligan’s lexicon was among the first to interact with the thousands of Greek papyri, ostraca, and inscriptions discovered in Egypt during the mid- to late-19th century. These papyrus scraps and potsherds, which date from between the 3rd century BC and 8th century AD, are the written record of everyday life in that time. They are the business contracts, personal emails, office-wide memos, and legal documents of the day. Using this lexicon will help you see how ordinary people would have understood the words and expressions of the New Testament authors."

"Moulton & Milligan used the papyri and other artifacts to show that New Testament Greek was not a special dialect (“Hebraic Greek”) but was rather the common or Koine Greek of the people who lived during this time. In fact, Moulton was an admirer of Adolf Deissmann, one of the first scholars to use the papyri in making a case for Koine Greek."

"In writing the lexicon, Moulton and Milligan included numerous examples pulled from the papyri and ostraca that show how ordinary people used Greek in ordinary contexts—examples that will help you understand the New Testament as its first readers understood it. The authors quote heavily from the papyri and provide commentary on how those quotations inform our understanding of the language. Some quotations from the Greek papyri are translated, others are not."

"If you use BDAG, you have seen the abbreviation ‘M-M’ at the end of many entries. This note, which appears some 4,700 times in BDAG, indicates that Moulton and Milligan’s lexicon also has an entry for that word." Vocabulary of the Greek Testament

Der Alter said:

Why did you omit Thayer and Abbott and Smith, at the same link, both of which refute your assumptions/presuppositions?

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You've provided no proof that they refute anything, including the following which you have failed to address:

Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life." Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

DM25 said:

What? There is more than one death... The bible even talks about the second death. There is the death of the physical body, and after that resurrection of the soul happens. And then there is the death of the soul, which happens in the lake of fire.

What I am still not sure about is where the wicked go before judgement. The Hebrew scriptures speak about Hades in the old testament and how there is a chasm between Abraham's blossom (the good side of Hades where it is a holding place for the righteous, it is not heaven though) and the side of Hades for the wicked. Now I'm not sure if these wicked beings are asleep there before judgement. Is torment going on now or are they simply asleep and in their grave? Is hell referring to the grave only? Somehow I find it hard to believe torment is happening now there but if someone has opinions on that I'd love to hear them. I do believe the righteous rest in Jesus and their souls go to heaven before judgement, because there were a couple verses that talked about the saints being in heaven. Both those who were delivered from Hades like Abraham and the saints after Jesus Christ. This is something that I am still looking into but of course I'm not spending too much time on these little details because there are more important concepts in the bible to learn about.

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Yes there is more then one death, but where do you get the idea that any death is annihilation?

We are to lose our soul/life to find it, so how can the death of the soul be annihilation.

Annihilation is just another doctrine proclaiming God is a failure who started something but is unable to finish what He started so will annihilate people He failed to save.

Hieronymus said:

The lake of fire is the 2nd death.

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and?

Der Alter said:

ga

Oh goody two UR-ites

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“In every Christian’s heart there is a cross and a throne, and the Christian is on the throne till he puts himself on the cross. If he refuses the cross he remains on the throne. Perhaps this is at the bottom of the backsliding and worldliness among gospel believers today. We want to be saved but we insist that Christ do all the dying. No cross for us, no dethronement, no dying. We remain king within the little kingdom of Mansoul and wear our tinsel crown with all the pride of a Caesar, but we doom ourselves to shadows and weakness and spiritual sterility.” -A.W. Tozer-

ClementofA said:

If LSJ were exclusively a "classical Greek lexicon" it wouldn't be referencing NT and or other Koine Greek texts.

​

You've added all the "perpetual, eternal" remarks in square brackets. They are not in LSJ. Note also that the word "perpetual" does not necessarily mean unending, but can mean:

1. "holding something (such as an office) for life"
2. " indefinitely long-continued"
3. "blooming continuously throughout the season"
Definition of PERPETUAL

Furthermore, note also LSJ's 2nd definition "holding an office or title for life" & LSJ's 3rd definition "= Lat. saecularis", i.e. aionios equals the Latin word saecularis:

"from Late Latin saecularis "worldly, secular, pertaining to a generation or age," from Latin saecularis "of an age, occurring once in an age," from saeculum "age, span of time, lifetime, generation, breed." " secular | Origin and meaning of secular by Online Etymology Dictionary


saecŭlāris (sēcŭ-), e, adj. [saeculum],

I. of or belonging to a saeculum: ludi, secular games, celebrated at very long intervals (the interval was fixed, in the time of Augustus, at one hundred and twenty years), and continuing three days and nights, Varr. and Liv. ap. Censor. de Die Nat. 17; Suet. Aug. 31; id. Dom. 4; id. Vit. 2; Plin. 7, 48, 49, § 159; Tac. A. 11, 11: carmen, a hymn sung at the secular games, a secular hymn; the best known hymn of this character is that composed by Horace, at the command of Augustus, to be sung at the secular games, A. U. C. 737; cf. Suet. Vit. Hor.

1. • Hence, substt.
     1. A. saecŭlāres, ium, m. (sc. ludi), the secular games, Suet. Claud. 21.
     2. B. saecŭlārĭa, ium, n. (sc. sacra), the secular games, Val. Max. 2, 4, 4 al.
   • II. Worldly, temporal, profane, lay, secular; pagan, heathen (eccl. Lat.): homines (opp. monachi), Hier. Ep. 60, 11: historia, Sedul. in Conc. post Ep. 7, 9:exempla, Tert. Exhort. ad Cast. 13 (al. saeculi): feminae quaedam (Dido, Lucretia), id. ib. 13 fin.
     As subst.: saecŭlārĭa, ium, n., worldly matters: redditur in culpā pastor saecularia servans, Commod. 94, 69.
     Hence, adv.: saecŭlārĭter, in a worldly manner (eccl. Lat.): mulierem saeculariter ornari, Cypr. Testim. 3, 36.

Lewis and Short
Lewis & Short

"Latin saecularis is given as a synonym of Greek aiônios":

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=ai)w/nios

"saecularis is the adjective of saeculum (age)"

"in the Latin vulgate, Jerome translated aiônios in one sentence both with aeternum and saecularis:"

"Titus 1:2 (Textus Receptus)

επ ελπιδι ζωης αιωνιου ην επηγγειλατο ο αψευδης θεος προ χρονων αιωνιων

in spem vitae aeternae quam promisit qui non mentitur Deus ante tempora saecularia

this is the definition of saecularis, obviously synonymous with aiônios"

Latin saecularis

"saeculāris e (sēc-), adj.,of a saeculum: ludi, Ta."
Lewis

"saeculum or saeclum (not sēc-), ī, n1 SA-, a race, generation, age, the people of any time: serit arbores quae alteri saeclo prosint, Caecil. ap. C.: saeculorum reliquorum iudicium: huius saeculi error: o nostri infamia saecli, O.: grave Pyrrhae, H.: beatissimi saeculi ortu, Ta.: aurea Saecula, V.: Fecunda culpae saecula, H.—Fig., the spirit of the age, fashion: nec conrumpere et conrumpi saeculum vocatur, Ta.—Of time, a lifetime, generation, age: in quo (anno), quam multa hominum saecula teneantur: Aesculus Multa virūm volvens durando saecula vincit, V.—A hundred years, century, age: duobus prope saeculis ante, quam, etc.: Saeculo festas referente luces, H.: aliquot saeculis post: quorum ornatūs tot saecula manserant: ex omnium saeculorum memoriā: prope modum saeculi res in unum diem cumulavit, Cu.: saeclis effeta senectus, with years, V."
Lewis



Clearly you are misinformed and wrong in both of your opinions that Moulton & Milligan is (1) "a classical Greek lexicon" & (2) is "Irrelevant":

"J. H. Moulton and G. Milligan’s lexicon was among the first to interact with the thousands of Greek papyri, ostraca, and inscriptions discovered in Egypt during the mid- to late-19th century. These papyrus scraps and potsherds, which date from between the 3rd century BC and 8th century AD, are the written record of everyday life in that time. They are the business contracts, personal emails, office-wide memos, and legal documents of the day. Using this lexicon will help you see how ordinary people would have understood the words and expressions of the New Testament authors."

"Moulton & Milligan used the papyri and other artifacts to show that New Testament Greek was not a special dialect (“Hebraic Greek”) but was rather the common or Koine Greek of the people who lived during this time. In fact, Moulton was an admirer of Adolf Deissmann, one of the first scholars to use the papyri in making a case for Koine Greek."

"In writing the lexicon, Moulton and Milligan included numerous examples pulled from the papyri and ostraca that show how ordinary people used Greek in ordinary contexts—examples that will help you understand the New Testament as its first readers understood it. The authors quote heavily from the papyri and provide commentary on how those quotations inform our understanding of the language. Some quotations from the Greek papyri are translated, others are not."

"If you use BDAG, you have seen the abbreviation ‘M-M’ at the end of many entries. This note, which appears some 4,700 times in BDAG, indicates that Moulton and Milligan’s lexicon also has an entry for that word." Vocabulary of the Greek Testament



You've provided no proof that they refute anything, including the following which you have failed to address:

Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life." Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

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Dear Clement: The glorious message of a Father that will not let us go dominates our being. I know this one thing, the same Christ Jesus who would not tolerate one morsel of leftover fish and bread to be lost/ wasted stands on behalf of the whole broken lot of us! Nothing in His Kingdom is lost: NOTHING!

"The Christian faith begins not with a big DO but with a big DONE." -Watchman Nee-

SaintCody777 said:

The Bible is against annihilation.

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No.
Sodom and Gomorra were an example for what will happen to the wicked.
Those cities were destroyed with fire and brimstone.
I've studied this quite long and hard, but i didn't take notes, so i haven't got the rebuttals ready to copy paste.
There are only a few verses that imply eternal conscious torment, for the serpent in particular.
But for the rest, the texts and themes in general support annihilation.
It's life in Christ or to perish.
The 2nd death is death, not life (unconscious vs. conscious).
The wages of sin is death, not an eternal life of being tortured.
God will be all in all in the end. What does that tell you?

Eternal conscious torment, which is Biblical,

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No it isn't.

scares me a heck of a lot more than just being wiped away out of existence, body and soul, forever.

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Obviously, yes. Although apparently many people fear the idea of ceasing to exist at all, too.

If hell is just a grave where souls are not being aware nor conscious of their surroundings and totally wiped out of existence at the Judgement, then why did Jesus say in Matthew 5:29-30 and Mark 9:42-48 to avoid hell at all costs?

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I'm not gonna look it up, but i wonder if this about the lake of fire or the dark departments of Hades (where the dead are before Judgement / 2nd death).
Either way, the death penalty and being in a place leading to the death penalty (death row) sounds like something to avoid at all cost.

You might say, "There is no pain in hell, but you will miss the opportunity for eternal life and you will not get it." But people burning hell ceaselessly will wish to be wiped out of existence body and soul. And if annihilation is Biblical, then would not the smoke of the torment of those who reject God, as described in Revelation 14:10-11?

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So you think God should scare us to heaven?
I thought it was about Love.
The smoke will rise and flow away.
It will not be 'condensed' back to a conscious person again.

Hieronymus said:

No.
Sodom and Gomorra were an example for what will happen to the wicked.
Those cities were destroyed with fire and brimstone.
I've studied this quite long and hard, but i didn't take notes, so i haven't got the rebuttals ready to copy paste.
There are only a few verses that imply eternal conscious torment, for the serpent in particular.
But for the rest, the texts and themes in general support annihilation.
It's life in Christ or to perish.
The 2nd death is death, not life (unconscious vs. conscious).
The wages of sin is death, not an eternal life of being tortured.
God will be all in all in the end. What does that tell you?
No it isn't. Obviously, yes. Although apparently many people fear the idea of ceasing to exist at all, too.I'm not gonna look it up, but i wonder if this about the lake of fire or the dark departments of Hades (where the dead are before Judgement / 2nd death).
Either way, the death penalty and being in a place leading to the death penalty (death row) sounds like something to avoid at all cost.So you think God should scare us to heaven?
I thought it was about Love.
The smoke will rise and flow away.
It will not be 'condensed' back to a conscious person again.

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The lake of fire passages, in context.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.
The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.

ClementofA said:

If LSJ were exclusively a "classical Greek lexicon" it wouldn't be referencing NT and or other Koine Greek texts.
You've added all the "perpetual, eternal" remarks in square brackets. They are not in LSJ. Note also that the word "perpetual" does not necessarily mean unending, but can mean:

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Evidently you can't read. The words "perpetual, eternal" is the meaning LSJ assigns to aionios

Clem said:

Furthermore, note also LSJ's 2nd definition "holding an office or title for life" & LSJ's 3rd definition "= Lat. saecularis", i.e. aionios equals the Latin word saecularis:

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Deliberate misrepresentation of the quoted source. LSJ does not say "perpetual" applies to every occurrence of "aionios" Note it gives a specific example "CPHerm. 62." And LSJ gives the specific example of "Phleg. Macr. 4" for "saecularis."
The only way you can make a credible source support the false teaching of UR is by selective out-of-context quoting as you have here. The teaching of UR is totally bankrupt.

Clem said:

"from Late Latin saecularis "worldly, secular, pertaining to a generation or age," from Latin saecularis "of an age, occurring once in an age," from saeculum "age, span of time, lifetime, generation, breed." "

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All your references to saeculum omitted as irrelevant. Do you have any studies which show why a Latin writer chose the word saeculum over some other word? If not. Irrelevant. The discussion is the meaning of the words aion and aionios.

Clem said:

Clearly you are misinformed and wrong in both of your opinions that Moulton & Milligan is (1) "a classical Greek lexicon" & (2) is "Irrelevant":

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I wonder why M&M did not use any NT texts in determining the meaning of words in the NT?

Clem said:

BDAG, you have seen the abbreviation ‘M-M’ at the end of many entries. This note, which appears some 4,700 times in BDAG, indicates that Moulton and Milligan’s lexicon also has an entry for that word."

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And your point is? Do any of the M&M citations disprove the BDAG translation of aion as eternity and aionios as eternal?

Clem said:

You've provided no proof that they refute anything, including the following which you have failed to address:
Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."

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What is there to address or refute? Does this statement directly address or refute any of my discussions. "In general" does not mean in all cases For example see this quote from M&M on the word "aion."

Clem said:

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

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Irrelevant. Shall I quote examples where "all the word/the whole world" cannot mean the entire planet earth?

Clem said:

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:
Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.
ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

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All irrelevant you lack the grammatical, linguistic expertise necessary to make any of these speculations.

I thank God that I do not have a God or Father who erases people who do not go His way and thereby forcing everyone to choose Him or else poof....
I thank God that He allows everyone the free will to go their own way, whether His or not, and receive what path and ways they have chosen - He is Just. If someone wants to be without true Love or Peace and be bitter and hateful.
I thank God He allows us to have our choice whether eternally with Him and enjoying All He is and brings forth or allowing the burning desires of sin that people freely choose to live with into the eternity of their choosing.... I want to be more like Him and say to someone " God has rest for you peace forgiveness and Love', and when they grind their teeth and choose to reject Him time & again God and His people will sorrow over their choice, but He will separate them, placing them outside where they have chosen to be.
I thank God that He will make me fully like Jesus to say that is your choice and I will not force you, threaten you or stand in your way. What a divine gift, free will, to live with Him forever or apart from Him.... what a loving act of mercy to allow the bitter to choose bitterness and the forgiving to be forgiven.
Thank you Father for you are merciful loving and also just

Der Alter said:

ga

The unbiquitous link to UR favorite Gerry Beauchamin, who has no stated or demonstrated expertise in Hebrew, Greek or Bible history, and his self published, with no scholarly reviews, book at some obscure publisher in California.

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