Would God do this?

JoeP222w said:

Those who eternally abandon the truth of God were not the elect of God. They were false converts. They were never born again, never regenerate, never repented of their sin, never trusted in Jesus Christ.

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Sorry, your analytic philosophy is weak.
Let’s do some logical analysis shall we.

You are saying that you cannot fall away from faith once in it.
Which implies that all the warnings God gives against apostasy is not directed at the elect, but to the reprobate?
Does that sound logically coherent to you?
(Hint, you cannot logically fall away from faith if you were reprobate all along, since you weren’t in it in the first place.)

And please read up properly on Molinism.

MaudDib said:

You are saying that you cannot fall away from faith once in it.

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Not eternally. You can fall into sin for a season, but if you are truly in Christ, nothing will cause you to eternally fall away, because God is the one who regenerates, God is the one who justifies, God is the one who redeems, God is the one who saves, God is the one who perseveres His children.

MaudDib said:

Which implies that all the warnings God gives against apostasy is not directed at the elect, but to the reprobate?

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See previous comment.

JoeP222w said:

Not eternally. You can fall into sin for a season, but if you are truly in Christ, nothing will cause you to eternally fall away, because God is the one who regenerates, God is the one who justifies, God is the one who redeems, God is the one who saves, God is the one who perseveres His children.



See previous comment.

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What??
Not eternally? Sorry, that is a very contrived explanation. So God is now not warning the reprobate unnecessarily according to your first mistake, you are now saying He is warning you against sinning for a season?

Let the Bible refute this eternal notion of yours:
Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; …


You are shifting ground in your responses. The fact of the matter is, there is no such thing as irresistible grace. We see it too in the fallen angels.

Nuff said.

Celticroots said:

I've been reading about Calvinism vs. Arminism although I am not full with either side. I've accepted Christ as my Savior and strive to build my relationship with Him.

According to Calvinism God predestines who is saved. God does the drawing because no one can come to Him so if you accept Christ it is because He drew you.

Can someone who genuinely desire to be saved be damned if God decides it? Or is that impossible?

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John 6:44......…
“no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The natural man has no ability to come to God, nor does he even have the desire to come. Because his heart is hard and his mind is darkened, the unregenerate person doesn’t desire God and is actually an enemy of God.

When Jesus says that no man can come without God’s drawing him, He is making a statement about the total depravity of the sinner and the universality of that condition.

So darkened is the unsaved person’s heart that he doesn’t even realize it.

Jere. 17:9.....……….
“The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?”

Therefore, it is only by the merciful and gracious drawing of God that we are saved.

In the conversion of the sinner, God enlightens the mind, convicts the spirit and inclines the will toward Himself, and influences the soul, without which influence the soul remains darkened and rebellious against God. All of this is involved in the drawing process.

That is the reason and truth behind Ephesians 2:8-9...………
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast."

.

MaudDib said:

What??
Not eternally? Sorry, that is a very contrived explanation. So God is now not warning the reprobate unnecessarily according to your first mistake, you are now saying He is warning you against sinning for a season?

Let the Bible refute this eternal notion of yours:
Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; …


You are shifting ground in your responses. The fact of the matter is, there is no such thing as irresistible grace. We see it too in the fallen angels.

Nuff said.

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Good morning my friend.

I for one am not a Calvinist. I am one however who does accept the Bible's doctrine of predestination.

Some use the phrase of "irresistible grace" which refers to the biblical truth that whatever God decrees to happen will inevitably come to pass, even in the salvation of individuals.

I without any doubt believe that the Holy Spirit will work in the lives of the elect so that they inevitably will come to faith in Christ. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit never fails to bring to salvation those sinners whom He personally calls to Christ.

John 6:37-40 confirms that.
"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

At the heart of this doctrine is the answer to the question: Why does one person believe the gospel and another does not?

Is it because one is smarter, has better reasoning capabilities, or possesses some other characteristic that allows him to realize the importance of the gospel message? Or is it because God does something unique in the lives of those whom He saves? If it is because of what the person who believes does or is, then in a sense he is responsible for his salvation and has a reason to boast. However, if the difference is solely that God does something unique in the hearts and lives of those who believe in Him and are saved, then there is no ground for boasting and salvation is truly a gift of grace.
Irresistible Grace - is it biblical?

MaudDib said:

Sorry, your analytic philosophy is weak.
Let’s do some logical analysis shall we.

You are saying that you cannot fall away from faith once in it.
Which implies that all the warnings God gives against apostasy is not directed at the elect, but to the reprobate?
Does that sound logically coherent to you?
(Hint, you cannot logically fall away from faith if you were reprobate all along, since you weren’t in it in the first place.)

And please read up properly on Molinism.

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And why bother even given them a warning if they can't desire God anyway....according to Calvinists.

MaudDib said:

Whoa. Your 'election' is determined by whether you freely choose to accept Christ as your saviour at the point of being drawn by the Holy Spirit... Of course God saw it coming in advance, but He doesn't arbitrarily choose people to be saved and leave the rest to be damned...

Imagine if that were true, that he chose one your kids to be saved and not the other. That would mean you love your kid more than God does.

'Do you believe that God created man and arbitrarily, sovereignly—it is the same thing—created that man, with no other intention, than that of damning him? Made him, and yet, for no other reason than that of destroying him for ever? Well, if you can believe it, I pity you, that is all I can say: you deserve pity, that you should think so meanly of God, whose mercy endureth for ever.' - CH Spurgeon.

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I believe without question that God has revealed to us in the Bible that He not only created all things but He also preplanned everything that would happen in His creation.

Jeremiah 29:11...…….
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

He both knows everything that has happened and everything that is yet future.

2 Kings 19:25………...
“Certainly you must have heard! Long ago I worked it out, in ancient times I planned it; and now I am bringing it to pass”.

He actively decreed every detail of this reality, and He is sovereign over all. But here is where the mystery comes in: even though God is sovereign, man still has real responsibility and freedom in the choices he makes. These choices are his; he cannot blame God for them. And they will genuinely affect and modify the rest of his life.
Divine Sovereignty vs. Human Responsibility

Because this mystery more intimately affects us than most of the others, it is one of the most difficult to accept. When people face it, they tend to overemphasize one truth (God’s sovereignty) or the other (human responsibility). This produces a lack of balance.

MaudDib said:

Sorry, your analytic philosophy is weak.
Let’s do some logical analysis shall we.

You are saying that you cannot fall away from faith once in it.
Which implies that all the warnings God gives against apostasy is not directed at the elect, but to the reprobate?
Does that sound logically coherent to you?
(Hint, you cannot logically fall away from faith if you were reprobate all along, since you weren’t in it in the first place.)

And please read up properly on Molinism.

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Our logic and philosophical ideas have no bearing here.

It is only the Word of God that matters.

"Logically" --- it does not sound logical to "ME" that walking around a city 7 times would cause the walls to fall, but that is what happened.

"Biblically"---The reason people have problems with OSAS is because we all have a flawed perspective on morality. Take murder for example. We think if we haven’t killed anyone then we haven’t committed murder. But Jesus taught that being angry with someone is equivalent to murdering them from God’s perspective.

He drew the same comparison between adultery and thinking lustful thoughts. His point was that sin begins in our heart. That means whether we act on our thoughts or not everyone is equally guilty and deserving of judgment. We can only escape the judgment by accepting His death as payment for our sins.

Celticroots said:

I've been reading about Calvinism vs. Arminism although I am not full with either side. I've accepted Christ as my Savior and strive to build my relationship with Him.

According to Calvinism God predestines who is saved. God does the drawing because no one can come to Him so if you accept Christ it is because He drew you.

Can someone who genuinely desire to be saved be damned if God decides it? Or is that impossible?

Click to expand...

Ok, so I am not a Calvanist. However, God must draw man to himself as man is totally depraved by sin. Man is not capable of finding God unless God reveals Himself, we see this is Romans 1. Where I depart with Calvanists is that while God draws man to Himself, reveals Himself to man and provides the faith that man needs to know Christ, man can decide to walk away, reject Christ or receive Him. Understand though that all that man needs to know God or accept God comes from God and in and of ourselves we can never know God. Is predestination selection or an act of an omniscient God not bound by time? I will let the Arminists and Calvanists square off on that one.