1 Cor 11:30-32
James 5:9-11
Heb 10:30-31
1 Thess 4:13-14
I will comment on these at the end.
The verse above (1 THESS 4:13-14) is interesting. We believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
Would you imagine Paul saying, we believe .... have fallen asleep "who at some point came to faith, whether they were in faith at point of death or not"
That's what he was saying. But don't take my word for anything. Just believe the verses that I share.
Let's look at the next chapter in 1 Thess.
ch 5
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
6 So then,
let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.
8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that,
whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
Now, some from the OSNAS crowd will claim that the red words only refer to whether the believer has already died or is still alive, and will refer back to ch 4:13.
However, what they conveniently miss is that we KNOW what Paul meant in this very context. v.6, the blue words clearly refer to lifestyle, not whether dead or alive, as falsely claimed. The entire passage compares LIFESTYLE between how the unbelievers live and how believers are supposed to live. So, v.10 clearly means that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, they WILL LIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM.
And this really bothers the OSNAS crowd. They just can't stand the thought that a rebellious brother or sister (child of God) will still go to heaven. Such ideas totally lack any concept of God's love and grace.
btw, we know that Paul had in mind LIFESTYLE in this passage by what he wrote in other passages, such as Rom 13:11-14
11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to
wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.
12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So
let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13
Let us behave decently, as in the daytime,
not in carousing and drunkenness, not in
sexual immorality and debauchery, not in
dissension and jealousy.
14
Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and
do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.
This passage is directly parallel to 1 Thess 5:4-10.
If that's not enough evidence, consider Eph 5:14 - This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”
Since this is a command, it cannot be said to any unbeliever, who has NO POWER to wake up themselves or rise from spiritual death. It's about believers in sinful lifestyles, to wake up and knock it off. It's about restoration of fellowship with Christ.
But you can be in Him and not know it. You can be a child of God while living like a child of the enemy.
This idea is a denial of open free fellowship, a kingdom based on choice and the flow of the Holy Spirit in the heart.
No, your own "idea" is a denial of Scripture, as I have JUST SHOWN YOU ABOVE.
If the Holy Spirit is not flowing in ones heart one is not a believer.
I'm sure you have at least 1 verse that supports your opinion here. Right?
The Bible says those who don't have the Holy Spirit indwelling (not flowing) in them are not believers. For ALL believers HAVE the Holy Spirit in them.
But since you have introduced the notion of the Holy Spirit "flowing" in people, is He "flowing" in believers who are grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) Him?
So therefore those who deny the cross and Jesus coming in the flesh do not have the Spirit and therefore are not believers.
You're going to have to take that up with Paul, who wrote 2 Tim 2:12. I'll let you figure that out.
So one has a dilemma. If one renounces faith, but is still saved, all the scriptures that declare this means you do not have the Holy Spirit and therefore not God, are untrue.
Actually, what IS untrue is your notion about what Scripture says.
Aren't you aware that the Bible is very clear that people HAVE renounced their faith? Jesus said so in a parable. Paul wrote about it.
Yet, where is the verse that says that the Holy Spirit leaves any believer? I'm talking NT, since what David prayed in Psalms was in the OT, before the Holy Spirit was given universally to all believers.
