Don’t die trying to save souls!

timewerx · Nov 18, 2018

What I'm saying might be contradictory to generally held beliefs.

But Jesus and the Bible actually led though example and instructions that we are not to let ourselves be murdered or harmed, even for the sake of the Gospel without giving it any thought.

While Jesus died on the cross, that is His mission, not ours! Our mission is to spread the Gospel to the ends of the Earth as quickly as possible and how can we if we're dead!

- Jesus did not allow Himself to be killed by the angry crowd on Luke 4:29. Had Jesus allowed the crowd to kill him that moment, we wouldn't know the rest of His Gospel!

- Jesus instructed His disciples to leave a town that rejects them on Matthew 10:14. This way, the disciples are able to visit more towns and preach to more people instead of wasting time on a town that does not listen to them or could even get them murdered. Therefore, this instruction is for their safety as well.

- Jesus instructed their disciples to carry short swords (daggers). Obviously, that is for their protection (self-defense) - Luke 22:36.

While Jesus said we should NOT make the Gospel into an armed/weaponized movement, we are allowed to defend ourselves from harm.

There's a big difference between carrying a sword for self-defense to using a sword to spread the Gospel. Those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword, Jesus is referring here to those intending to spread Christianity by the sword as the murderous Crusaders and Radical Islamists (in Islamic conquests) did.

Move on, don't waste time on those who will not listen and don't get yourselves killed will very quickly spread the Gospel....Why did Jesus want His disciples to spread the Word quickly because Jesus knows, the Gospel would eventually be corrupted by false teachers and false prophets so time is of the essence.

SkyWriting · Nov 18, 2018

timewerx said:
What I'm saying might be contradictory to generally held beliefs.

But Jesus and the Bible actually led though example and instructions that we are not to let ourselves be murdered or harmed, even for the sake of the Gospel without giving it any thought.

While Jesus died on the cross, that is His mission, not ours! Our mission is to spread the Gospel to the ends of the Earth as quickly as possible and how can we if we're dead!

- Jesus did not allow Himself to be killed by the angry crowd on Luke 4:29. Had Jesus allowed the crowd to kill him that moment, we wouldn't know the rest of His Gospel!

- Jesus instructed His disciples to leave a town that rejects them on Matthew 10:14. This way, the disciples are able to visit more towns and preach to more people instead of wasting time on a town that does not listen to them or could even get them murdered. Therefore, this instruction is for their safety as well.

- Jesus instructed their disciples to carry short swords (daggers). Obviously, that is for their protection (self-defense) - Luke 22:36.

While Jesus said we should NOT make the Gospel into an armed/weaponized movement, we are allowed to defend ourselves from harm.

There's a big difference between carrying a sword for self-defense to using a sword to spread the Gospel. Those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword, Jesus is referring here to those intending to spread Christianity by the sword as the murderous Crusaders and Radical Islamists (in Islamic conquests) did.

Move on, don't waste time on those who will not listen and don't get yourselves killed will very quickly spread the Gospel....Why did Jesus want His disciples to spread the Word quickly because Jesus knows, the Gospel would eventually be corrupted by false teachers and false prophets so time is of the essence.

That's a good point. I always wondered why he avoided crowds at times.

brinny · Nov 18, 2018

timewerx said:
What I'm saying might be contradictory to generally held beliefs.

But Jesus and the Bible actually led though example and instructions that we are not to let ourselves be murdered or harmed, even for the sake of the Gospel without giving it any thought.

While Jesus died on the cross, that is His mission, not ours! Our mission is to spread the Gospel to the ends of the Earth as quickly as possible and how can we if we're dead!

- Jesus did not allow Himself to be killed by the angry crowd on Luke 4:29. Had Jesus allowed the crowd to kill him that moment, we wouldn't know the rest of His Gospel!

- Jesus instructed His disciples to leave a town that rejects them on Matthew 10:14. This way, the disciples are able to visit more towns and preach to more people instead of wasting time on a town that does not listen to them or could even get them murdered. Therefore, this instruction is for their safety as well.

- Jesus instructed their disciples to carry short swords (daggers). Obviously, that is for their protection (self-defense) - Luke 22:36.

While Jesus said we should NOT make the Gospel into an armed/weaponized movement, we are allowed to defend ourselves from harm.

There's a big difference between carrying a sword for self-defense to using a sword to spread the Gospel. Those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword, Jesus is referring here to those intending to spread Christianity by the sword as the murderous Crusaders and Radical Islamists (in Islamic conquests) did.

Move on, don't waste time on those who will not listen and don't get yourselves killed will very quickly spread the Gospel....Why did Jesus want His disciples to spread the Word quickly because Jesus knows, the Gospel would eventually be corrupted by false teachers and false prophets so time is of the essence.

- Jesus did not allow Himself to be killed by the angry crowd on Luke 4:29.

You raised some very good points, my friend.

Amen.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Nov 18, 2018

timewerx said:
What I'm saying might be contradictory to generally held beliefs.

But Jesus and the Bible actually led though example and instructions that we are not to let ourselves be murdered or harmed, even for the sake of the Gospel without giving it any thought.

While Jesus died on the cross, that is His mission, not ours! Our mission is to spread the Gospel to the ends of the Earth as quickly as possible and how can we if we're dead!

- Jesus did not allow Himself to be killed by the angry crowd on Luke 4:29. Had Jesus allowed the crowd to kill him that moment, we wouldn't know the rest of His Gospel!

- Jesus instructed His disciples to leave a town that rejects them on Matthew 10:14. This way, the disciples are able to visit more towns and preach to more people instead of wasting time on a town that does not listen to them or could even get them murdered. Therefore, this instruction is for their safety as well.

- Jesus instructed their disciples to carry short swords (daggers). Obviously, that is for their protection (self-defense) - Luke 22:36.

While Jesus said we should NOT make the Gospel into an armed/weaponized movement, we are allowed to defend ourselves from harm.

There's a big difference between carrying a sword for self-defense to using a sword to spread the Gospel. Those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword, Jesus is referring here to those intending to spread Christianity by the sword as the murderous Crusaders and Radical Islamists (in Islamic conquests) did.

Move on, don't waste time on those who will not listen and don't get yourselves killed will very quickly spread the Gospel....Why did Jesus want His disciples to spread the Word quickly because Jesus knows, the Gospel would eventually be corrupted by false teachers and false prophets so time is of the essence.

You are misinterpreting the Scriptures. Jesus wasn't the only one who died for the Gospel. Those closest to Him also were martyred or, at least, harmed. Jesus said He was going to show Saul of Tarsus how much he must suffer. Stephen, arguably the most powerfully used of the deacons, died a martyr's death in front of that same Saul of Tarsus. Jesus said they will kill and imprison you and think they are serving God. If someone really loves God, why would they fear being killed spreading His Gospel?

brinny · Nov 18, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
You are misinterpreting the Scriptures. Jesus wasn't the only one who died for the Gospel. Those closest to Him also were martyred or, at least, harmed. Jesus said He was going to show Saul of Tarsus how much he must suffer. Stephen, arguably the most powerfully used of the deacons, died a martyr's death in front of that same Saul of Tarsus. Jesus said they will kill and imprison you and think they are serving God. If someone really loves God, why would they fear being killed spreading His Gospel?

The OP is about "God's" timing in ANYONE dying, including Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son.

It is about GOD'S timing, and not "ours". It's about GOD'S will, and not "our" will.

Jesus escaped sure death more than once, because it was not His "time", nor His Father's will that He be killed or die at that time. He was to "complete" His mission before dying, just as we ALL are.

"why shouldest thou die before thy time?" ~Eccles 7:17

Rubiks · Nov 18, 2018

The verse about carrying swords is about fulfilling the Isaiah passage, according to Jesus own words.

As for defending oneself, Jesus taught to "take up your cross" and follow him, not defend yourself against the Romans.

None of this means anyone should intentionally seek out martyrdom, especially out of the conceived notion that it makes your salvation secure that developed in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.

brinny · Nov 18, 2018

Rubiks said:
The verse about carrying swords is about fulfilling the Isaiah passage, according to Jesus own words.

As for defending oneself, Jesus taught to "take up your cross" and follow him, not defend yourself against the Romans.

None of this means anyone should intentionally seek out martyrdom, especially out of the conceived notion that it makes your salvation secure that developed in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.

Is defending oneself, or others, a sin?

Rubiks · Nov 18, 2018

brinny said:
Is defending oneself, or others, a sin?

No.

brinny · Nov 18, 2018

Rubiks said:
No.

Then what is your point?

Rubiks · Nov 18, 2018

brinny said:
Then what is your point?

Requirements for being a disciple of Jesus were often stricter than what God normally required (as in the Law of Moses).

Jesus praises a Roman soldier's faith in Matthew 8. This is seemingly at odds with "he who lives by the sword will die by the sword," is it not?

brinny · Nov 18, 2018

Rubiks said:
Requirements for being a disciple of Jesus were often stricter than what God normally required (as in the Law of Moses).

Jesus praises a Roman soldier's faith in Matthew 8. This is seemingly at odds with "he who lives by the sword will die by the sword," is it not?

Well that's food for thought, isn't it?

Getting back to self-defense, is self-defense the predatory and intentional attack on someone else to shed "innocent blood"?

And what Jesus was saying about "dying by the sword"......was He speaking of self defense, or was He speaking of perpetrators who go SEEKING innocent blood to shed?

In addition, is it a sin to "stop" perpetrators who intend to shed innocent blood?

W2L · Nov 18, 2018

The question i wonder about is whether the apostles carried any swords after that night in the garden. Did Paul carry swords? No he had God protecting him. But what about us? We are not apostles. We know Christians die, look at Stephen for example. Did Stephen have a sword? Should he have had one? (Not that it would be a defense against stones but im just asking.)

W2L · Nov 18, 2018

Difficult question i guess. Personal i think i would defend myself if anyone attacked me. I dont know if thats right or wrong.

brinny · Nov 18, 2018

W2L said:
The question i wonder about is whether the apostles carried any swords after that night in the garden. Did Paul carry swords? No he had God protecting him. But what about us? We are not apostles. We know Christians die, look at Stephen for example. Did Stephen have a sword? Should he have had one? (Not that it would be a defense against stones but im just asking.)

I don't carry swords, or guns, etc.

Yet, i would not find it a "sin" to do so.

They are instruments. They can be used for good or evil.

Stephen, by the way, died because it was God's "timing" that he did.

We are to live until it is our "time", and until then, to fulfill our mission here on earth.

It's a thin tightrope, this question about defending oneself or others. The bottom line, is that we DO, if evil presents itself, to ourselves or others. We do until our mission is completed.

God grants us the wisdom and the grace to know when that is.

It is not "our" decision. It's GOD'S decision.

Until then we are salt and light in this world.

Let's keep shining, amigo :hug:

W2L · Nov 18, 2018

brinny said:
I don't carry swords, or guns, etc.

Yet, i would not find it a "sin" to do so.

They are instruments. They can be used for good or evil.

Stephen, by the way, died because it was God's "timing" that he did.

We are to live until it is our "time", and until then, to fulfill our mission here on earth.

It's a thin tightrope, this question about defending oneself or others. The bottom line, is that we DO, if evil presents itself, to ourselves or others. We do until our mission is completed.

God grants us the wisdom and the grace to know when that is.

It is not "our" decision. It's GOD'S decision.

Until then we are salt and light in this world.

Let's keep shining, amigo

Thank you brinny.

Let's keep shining, amigo

Amen. Edifying statement.

brinny · Nov 18, 2018

W2L said:
Thank you brinny.

Amen. Edifying statement.

Amen, my friend.

May you catch a glimpse of God's face, smiling on you and hear Him rejoicing over you with singing. He KNOWS your "heart" for Him in the very recesses of your heart and soul, and the peripherals? Well His inexplicable grace works all that out in each of us.

I'm sooooo thankful He does. He continually "teaches" me, and each of us.

He is a GOOD Shepherd and a GOOD Father and His Holy Spirit is a very GOOD Teacher.

This comes to mind:

"Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not." ~Jere 33:3

:hug:

W2L · Nov 18, 2018

brinny said:
Amen, my friend.

May you catch a glimpse of God's face, smiling on you and hear Him rejoicing over you with singing. He KNOWS your "heart" for Him in the very recesses of your heart and soul, and the peripherals? Well His inexplicable grace works all that out in each of us.

I'm sooooo thankful He does. He continually "teaches" me, and each of us.

He is a GOOD Shepherd and a GOOD Father and His Holy Spirit is a very GOOD Teacher.

This comes to mind:

"Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not." ~Jere 33:3

Yes, the Lord is The Teacher.

brinny · Nov 18, 2018

W2L said:
Yes, the Lord is The Teacher.

Amen! Yes He is! And a very GOOD Teacher.

W2L · Nov 18, 2018

brinny said:
Amen! Yes He is! And a very GOOD Teacher.

The Holy Spirit teacher is a promise in the New Covenant.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Nov 18, 2018

timewerx said:
What I'm saying might be contradictory to generally held beliefs.

But Jesus and the Bible actually led though example and instructions that we are not to let ourselves be murdered or harmed, even for the sake of the Gospel without giving it any thought.

While Jesus died on the cross, that is His mission, not ours! Our mission is to spread the Gospel to the ends of the Earth as quickly as possible and how can we if we're dead!

- Jesus did not allow Himself to be killed by the angry crowd on Luke 4:29. Had Jesus allowed the crowd to kill him that moment, we wouldn't know the rest of His Gospel!

- Jesus instructed His disciples to leave a town that rejects them on Matthew 10:14. This way, the disciples are able to visit more towns and preach to more people instead of wasting time on a town that does not listen to them or could even get them murdered. Therefore, this instruction is for their safety as well.

- Jesus instructed their disciples to carry short swords (daggers). Obviously, that is for their protection (self-defense) - Luke 22:36.

While Jesus said we should NOT make the Gospel into an armed/weaponized movement, we are allowed to defend ourselves from harm.

There's a big difference between carrying a sword for self-defense to using a sword to spread the Gospel. Those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword, Jesus is referring here to those intending to spread Christianity by the sword as the murderous Crusaders and Radical Islamists (in Islamic conquests) did.

Move on, don't waste time on those who will not listen and don't get yourselves killed will very quickly spread the Gospel....Why did Jesus want His disciples to spread the Word quickly because Jesus knows, the Gospel would eventually be corrupted by false teachers and false prophets so time is of the essence.

We are to escape harm as Christ did(Acts 9:23-25; 2 Cor 11:23-26; Luke 22:36) and we are called to suffer and die as Christ did(Acts 7:56-60; Luke 9:22-25; 1 Peter 2:19-22; Matt 16:24-25) unto us it is given not only to believe on Christ to but to suffer for him as well(Philippians 1:28-29). So by the word of God we are told to depart from harm when we are able(Acts 9:23-25) and to die as Stephen and Christ did when we are not(Acts 7:56-60;Luke 9:22-25) so in all things we are to walk as Christ walked(1 John 2:6) with our feet shod with the Gospel of Peace(Romans 10:15; Ephesians 6:15).

Don’t die trying to save souls!

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