Can you lose your salvation?

Neostarwcc

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Question.
When was Noah Finally saved from the judgment of God executed via the Flood.?

A. When he believed God so built the Ark?

B.When it started to rain and He got on the Ark
C.while the earth was flooded and he was on the ark
D. After the waters receeded and he stood on dry ground again .?

When he believed God and built the Ark.
 
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Neostarwcc

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No. Once they have their salvation - in Heaven - they cannot lose it. However, no-one still alive on Earth already "has" their salvation. That unbiblical idea, which no Christian on Earth ever heard of until a couple of hundred years ago, is one of the most dangerous false beliefs to come out of the doctrinal chaos of Protestantism.

So we obtain salvation after we die and not at the moment of conversion?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Matthew 24:9-13
9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.
10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.


I don't think the passage indicates that salvation is dependent upon the endurance of a genuine believer who is under persecution but that the pressures of persecution will reveal the reality of a person's claim to be saved ("many will be offended," "the love of many will grow cold." See also 1 John 2:19). The one who endures to the end is the one who is (and so shall be) saved.



I don't see anywhere in this passage where Paul indicates that a genuine believer may lose their salvation. He simply notes the result of saving faith: A faith that perseveres, established and firm in the hope of the Gospel, is a faith that produces a holy life, free from blemish and accusation. A faith that does not persevere is a false faith, the faith of a "tare," that does not hold firm unto the end. If the Colossians claiming to be saved possessed such a faith, they could not expect to remained unmoved from the hope of the Gospel. This is how I understand Paul's words here. And my understanding appears to be reinforced by Paul pointing out that the Colossians had already been reconciled to God; they were not, by dint of their perseverance, securing their reconciliation to God. This certainly seems to coincide well with Paul wrote to the Galatian believers:

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?




Coming out of the OT, this passage has no bearing that I can see upon the circumstance of a person under the New Covenant established in and through Christ. It is precisely because the "righteous" person in the OT could not achieve perfect righteousness that animal sacrifices had to be made and Christ, finally, had to die at Calvary. (Romans 3:19-23; Romans 5:12)



Was Paul describing believers when he wrote what he did from Romans 1:18 to the end of the chapter? Yes, he starts off his letter acknowledging to whom it he is writing, but this doesn't mean that everything he describes in his letter is in direct reference to the Roman believers. This is certainly true in the last part of chapter 1 and it is true also in the passage from chapter 2 you cite above. Neither passage describes the Romans to whom Paul was writing. These descriptions seem, rather, to be set in distinct contrast to them and as examples of what to avoid. In chapter 2, Paul is speaking (throughout the whole chapter, really) particularly to hypocritical teachers:

Romans 2:1
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.


It's worth noting, too, that Paul doesn't use terms here that stipulate he is referring to Roman believers. Instead, he resorts to "O man" and "whoever you are," not "brethren" as he so often does in other places. At the end of the chapter he continues to describe who he means and his language does not give me cause to think he was referring to Roman believers:

Romans 2:17
17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,


Romans 2:24
24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.


I don't see how it makes sense to think Paul is referring to Roman believers here. It seems to me that his descriptions above make it quite evident that he is not.



Paul isn't indicating that good works obtain one's salvation in Galatians 6:9. That would directly contradict his explicit statements in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5. It seems to me, then, that by "a harvest" Paul means the fruit of the good deeds sown by believers: Sowing mercy produces a harvest of mercy (Matthew 5:7); sowing friendliness produces a harvest of friends (Proverbs 18:24); sowing diligence produces a harvest of recognition from superiors (Proverbs 22:29), and so on.

The quotation above from Galatians 3 rather makes my case for me. It clearly excludes works as a means of salvation. As Paul explained in Titus 3:5, the Spirit gives spiritual life to a person entirely independently of their works. Paul simply repeats this fact to the Galatians.

I think a better example would be John 15:1-10.

““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father. “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬
 
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ToBeLoved

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When he believed God and built the Ark.
So God saved Noah
And his family and said that were the last righteous people left on earth based on one man’s obedience in building the ark?

That single obedient act?

What I know of the Bible God judges righteousness not by one act of obedience but a person’s heart and actions over time. With a primarily righteous heart and of obedience over time. A person who from the heart obeys God and has much faith.
 
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8484838

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The Greek word for believe is pisteúō. The Greek definition is a bit different and can be used to imply obedience.

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing

Believing is the first step in which a person will receive the Holy Spirit who will guide them in their walk into repentance and being born again. Once a person receives the Holy Spirit they must abide. Failure to abide without repentance will result in condemnation. John 15:1-10 is a great example of this. Matthew 25:31-46 is another example where the goats were condemned for not abiding. They didn’t produce fruit. Matthew 7:21-27 also gives an example of people who were condemned by their actions. Adhering the the guidance of the Holy Spirit will result in both repentance and abiding and ultimately salvation. A person cannot simply say they believe Jesus is their Savior and live a sinful life without repentance and receive salvation. That would not be evidence of a born again Christian who has become a new creation of the Spirit and not of the world. That would also make a very wide gate to heaven. I’m fact the only way the gate could get any wider is if universalism was true and nothing is required for salvation. Everyone is automatically saved. But the scriptures say the gate is narrow and few find it. Not to mention that no church taught eternal security for the first 1500 years of Christianity. In fact the church taught the opposite.
So essentially, you're trusting your ability to abide by the commands of God and produce fruit to be saved, instead of trusting that Jesus Christ was the payment in full for all of your sins?

As far as the church not teaching eternal security, why do you think I derive my belief of eternal security from the scriptures if they didn't teach it? Romans 8:38-39, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 10:27-28, Hebrews 13:5, John 3:18.

He who BELIEVES is not condemned. Not he who produces fruit, not he who abides, not he who obeys the commandments: No, it's he who BELIEVES in John 3:18, and John 5:24.

You either believe what the Bible says or you don't. Jesus said in John 15 IF we abide in him, and he in us, we are to bring forth fruit. But abiding in him is being saved in the first place. For we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Ephesians 2:10); we are not created in Christ Jesus through good works. God foreordained that we should walk in good works, and do them, as commanded according to Ephesians 2:10: but what are we not saved by? Good works (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, if we're not saved by works/fruit, then why would that condition be added down the road AFTER receiving the Spirit and being saved? You say we must bear fruit after receiving the Spirit to be saved, but that doesn't align with the Bible.

And regarding Matthew 25, the sheep and the goats are those that are already justified and unjustified: Jesus is judging the works of both groups. With the sheep, they are justified by Christ already, so whatever good works they do, they are rewarded for; with the unjustified, Jesus is judging them BY their good works to determine their worthiness for everlasting life: and they fall short. Why? Because they trusted in their good works. Notice how they were ALREADY sheep and goats when Christ divided them. They were already saved, or condemned prior to that judgement because John 3:18 is true.

Where do you receive your interpretations from? I'm just curious, whether you receive them based upon your own study, or from church or somewhere else?
 
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BNR32FAN

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The will of the Father is found in John 6:40.

Jesus hasn’t finished the message in verse 40 John 6:45 implies obedience.

“As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬ ‭NLT‬‬
 
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BNR32FAN

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So essentially, you're trusting your ability to abide by the commands of God and produce fruit to be saved, instead of trusting that Jesus Christ was the payment in full for all of your sins?

Not at all. Just because repentance and good works are necessary for salvation doesn’t mean we are saved by them. We are saved by faith which produces repentance and good works. James 2:14 is one example as well as John 15:1-10. So far no one who promotes OSAS has addressed John 15:1-10 despite my several posts regarding these verses. What is your interpretation of these verses?
 
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RDKirk

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Not really. I was just curious on people's opinions. I guess in a way it matters. Because if you can lose your salvation than Jesus lied.

If you could "lose" your salvation like losing your car keys, then Jesus lied.

If you could lose your salvation by Jesus changing His own mind about you on a whim, like the fickle gods of the Graco-Romans, then Jesus lied.

But if someone who has been enlightened, who has tasted the heavenly gift, who has shared in the Holy Spirit, who has tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age then decides to reject salvation, then, no, Jesus didn't lie. Jesus said His mind would not change and that He could protect us from third parties. He never said we could not decide to walk away, He said most people would walk away--and the gospels as demonstrate exactly that happening more often than not.
 
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RDKirk

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Just one question, and yes, I agree with that understanding. After falling away could such a person be restored to repentance? Perhaps a bit rhetorical given the passage but losing salvation after all of that, salvation hardly seems possible.

That would not be "losing" salvation, that would be rejecting salvation.
 
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RDKirk

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Does it matter?

Here's something that does matter:

2 Cor.13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Heb.5:9 and having been perfected, He became the author of eonian salvation to all those obeying Him

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, and unfit for any good deed.

1 John 2:3 By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.

Yes. This entirely.

We should each be more concerned at the beginning of the day whether we will have accomplished God's intended goal for us by the end of the day.

Did the Kingdom of Heaven advance a step forward today because I carried it a step forward today?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Not really. I was just curious on people's opinions. I guess in a way it matters. Because if you can lose your salvation than Jesus lied.

No He didn’t lie you just don’t understand the full message. When you read a book in the scriptures you have to read the entire book to get the full message. Just like in the driver’s license handbook says you can get your driver’s license at the age of 16. That’s not the only requirement. You also must reside in that state and pass the written and driving test. Does that mean they lied because they said you can get a license at the age of 16? No because you simply didn’t continue reading to see all of the requirements.
 
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mark kennedy

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That would not be "losing" salvation, that would be rejecting salvation.
That's true, but there is another side to this. What I'm dealing with is the mistaken notion that when a person sins that means their unsaved at that time. What I have argued is that if it were possible to lose your salvation, you can only do it once.
 
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dhh712

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Can a true born again Christian EVER lose their salvation? Is there a point in which a Christian can sin in which they can actually lose their salvation? What about falling away? And other ways people claim you can lose your salvation? Why or why not?

No, God perseveres in our salvation to the end; Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. If it was up to us, yes we could definitely lose it.

The only way someone can lose their "salvation" is if they were never saved to begin with. Jesus describes these kinds of situations in his parable of the Sower. Some people may have a show of faith, but it does not take root and for one reason or another eventually goes away.
 
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mark kennedy

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No, God perseveres in our salvation to the end; Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. If it was up to us, yes we could definitely lose it.

The only way someone can lose their "salvation" is if they were never saved to begin with. Jesus describes these kinds of situations in his parable of the Sower. Some people may have a show of faith, but it does not take root and for one reason or another eventually goes away.
Putting to death your earthly nature (Colossians 3:5, Romans 6:5-7) is normal repentance, stemming from the atonement of Christ on the cross. We are created for good works in Christ (Ephesians 2:10). The biggest difference with the last soil in Jesus parable was that it produced fruit, some 30 fold etc. Obviously this is the whole idea behind grace, the only problem is when you make it about personal merit good or bad, you have abandoned the New Testament witness.
 
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Oldmantook

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This is the very reasoning people on your side deny when it comes to John 10:28-29. "No man" is a description of universal scope: "No man" includes the person who thinks they can hand back to God their salvation.
This is the very reasoning people on your side ignore John 10:27. You give emphasis to the promises/assurances of vs. 28-29 while totally ignoring the condition set forth in v.27. Not being snatched out of the Father's hand only applies to those sheep who LISTEN and FOLLOW. Those sheep who don't, don't have the assurances of vs. 28-29. Context is key.
 
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Oldmantook

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John 17:6-12 tells us that Judas was a son of perdition and Jesus tells us one of you is a devil, I don't see a problem. Judas in John 6 was already devil and during the last night did what devils do. You want to make this about habitual sin, it's obscene, you've twisted these verses to your own devices, shame on you.
You have a problem mark because you totally ignore John 17:6-12 where Judas is described as one of the elect along with the other disciples. Judas was given by the Father to Jesus. You have failed to reconcile this passage with your false belief. Judas was a believer as he was chosen by the Father and hence he was of the elect - a soteriological term that Calvinists without exception acknowledge refers to a saved person. Although Judas was saved, he chose to sin by stealing from the moneybag and ultimately ended up betraying Christ and was lost. Before you accuse me of twisting verses, I suggest you study John 17 and reconcile your view with it - if you can.
 
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mark kennedy

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You have a problem mark because you totally ignore John 17:6-12 where Judas is described as one of the elect along with the other disciples. Judas was given by the Father to Jesus. You have failed to reconcile this passage with your false belief. Judas was a believer as he was chosen by the Father and hence he was of the elect - a soteriological term that Calvinists without exception acknowledge refers to a saved person. Although Judas was saved, he chose to sin by stealing from the moneybag and ultimately ended up betraying Christ and was lost. Before you accuse me of twisting verses, I suggest you study John 17 and reconcile your view with it - if you can.
The passage never says Judas was elect, what it says is, ' I guarded them, and not one of them perished, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled' (John 17:12). Judas was already a devil back in John 6:70 'Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!". Judas was already lost, when he was still an Apostle, being a child of perdition is the exact opposite of being born again.
 
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mark kennedy

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This is the very reasoning people on your side ignore John 10:27. You give emphasis to the promises/assurances of vs. 28-29 while totally ignoring the condition set forth in v.27. Not being snatched out of the Father's hand only applies to those sheep who LISTEN and FOLLOW. Those sheep who don't, don't have the assurances of vs. 28-29. Context is key.
Sheep were notorious for wandering off, especially when they were young. When David describes the limbs thou has broken (Psalm 51:8), he is describing what he had to do as a shepherd. A lamb wants to wander off so you break it's leg, then nurse it back to health. The picture of Jesus carrying a lamb on his shoulders didn't accidentally get his leg broke, the shepherd did that so he wouldn't wander off. Everything in salvation is a work of God, from repentance to good works, it's always God's grace.
 
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Oldmantook

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The passage never says Judas was elect, what it says is, ' I guarded them, and not one of them perished, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled' (John 17:12). Judas was already a devil back in John 6:70 'Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!". Judas was already lost, when he was still an Apostle, being a child of perdition is the exact opposite of being born again.
Really mark? Did you even bother to read the whole passage. If you really did, you would have detected vs. 6,9,11,12 where it plainly states that those men - meaning Judas and the other disciples were given to Jesus by the Father. As you probably know, the Father chooses those whom He elects. Despite being chosen by the Father and given to Jesus and thus being one of the elect, Judas sinned and fell from grace. Shame on you for not even reading this passage more closely.
 
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