Can you lose your salvation?

mark kennedy

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Amen! In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him! (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition (John 17:12).
I don't know if Judas cast out demons or not, if he healed or what he did. Supposedly he preached, that was the proper thing for an Apostle to do. But so he did, that isn't the miracle that saves us, the one that happens when we believe the gospel is what's important. As always, with a child of perdition, his deeds betrayed his cold black heart. I pity the man, he seems so confused throwing the money down and going out to hang himself. But that's the price you pay for betraying Christ, not a grotesque debauchery just this sad and confused individual who chose to be a puppet for the devil rather then an Apostle for the Lord. He must have been so confused. Just pitiful.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Then that would be salvation that was based upon ourselves, but we're not saved of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8); it's the gift of God.

The Bible doesn't say: "Follow Jesus and thou shalt be saved" in Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31, nor does it say, "That if thou shalt follow the Lord Jesus, thou shalt be saved" in Romans 10:9, nor does it say, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever followeth him shall not perish, but have everlasting life" in John 3:16.

But what all these verses do say and have in common is the word "believe." That's it.

If God judged our salvation based upon our ability to follow after him in holiness, none of us could be saved, period. "There is none righteous, no, not one." (Romans 3:10). And that also wouldn't be a free gift - that would be working for our salvation by following Jesus and putting forth effort on our part, but it's not of our works (Ephesians 2:9, Titus 3:5).

Those that are his sheep are those that have faith in him based upon hearing the word of God; after all, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (Romans 10:17). We obey from the heart (through faith) that form of doctrine delivered unto us (Romans 6:17), thereby knowing God through Jesus Christ by submitting to his righteousness and placing our faith and trust in Jesus (Philippians 3:9-10, Ephesians 1:13, Romans 10:3-4).

And you can't argue with those scriptures. Salvation is based upon nothing that we can do in our own merit, and is entirely based upon the free gift offered by God. We either receive it freely, or we don't. Either God gets all the credit for our salvation, or we get all the blame for our damnation - there is no in between.

The Greek word for believe is pisteúō. The Greek definition is a bit different and can be used to imply obedience.

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing

Believing is the first step in which a person will receive the Holy Spirit who will guide them in their walk into repentance and being born again. Once a person receives the Holy Spirit they must abide. Failure to abide without repentance will result in condemnation. John 15:1-10 is a great example of this. Matthew 25:31-46 is another example where the goats were condemned for not abiding. They didn’t produce fruit. Matthew 7:21-27 also gives an example of people who were condemned by their actions. Adhering the the guidance of the Holy Spirit will result in both repentance and abiding and ultimately salvation. A person cannot simply say they believe Jesus is their Savior and live a sinful life without repentance and receive salvation. That would not be evidence of a born again Christian who has become a new creation of the Spirit and not of the world. That would also make a very wide gate to heaven. I’m fact the only way the gate could get any wider is if universalism was true and nothing is required for salvation. Everyone is automatically saved. But the scriptures say the gate is narrow and few find it. Not to mention that no church taught eternal security for the first 1500 years of Christianity. In fact the church taught the opposite.
 
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BNR32FAN

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We Christians are willfully disobedient every day, in that we will sin when we know we shouldn't. Now, some are more guilty than others, but we are all guilty of it.

But Jesus was offered ONCE for sins (Hebrews 9:28).

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Christ is not re-crucified every time we sin, because he was the sufficient sacrifice in the first place. If that were not the case, then Christ would be put to an open shame, but that's impossible (Hebrews 6:4-6).

Matthew 7:21-27
 
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mark kennedy

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The Greek word for believe is pisteúō. The Greek definition is a bit different and can be used to imply obedience.

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing

Believing is the first step in which a person will receive the Holy Spirit who will guide them in their walk into repentance and being born again. Once a person receives the Holy Spirit they must abide. Failure to abide without repentance will result in condemnation. John 15:1-10 is a great example of this. Matthew 25:31-46 is another example where the goats were condemned for not abiding. They didn’t produce fruit. Matthew 7:21-27 also gives an example of people who were condemned by their actions. Adhering the the guidance of the Holy Spirit will result in both repentance and abiding and ultimately salvation. A person cannot simply say they believe Jesus is their Savior and live a sinful life without repentance and receive salvation. That would not be evidence of a born again Christian who has become a new creation of the Spirit and not of the world. That would also make a very wide gate to heaven. I’m fact the only way the gate could get any wider is if universalism was true and nothing is required for salvation. Everyone is automatically saved. But the scriptures say the gate is narrow and few find it. Not to mention that no church taught eternal security for the first 1500 years of Christianity. In fact the church taught the opposite.
The church always taught eternal security, it's synonymous with eternal life. Who could put confidence in a temporary salvation, this concept is unknown in the New Testament. Your either saved or your not.
 
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BNR32FAN

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God also wills to save everyone. (1 Tim. 2:3-6). Why aren't you an universalist then?

The Greek word used for will is thélō which means

1) to will, have in mind, intend a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose b) to desire, to wish c) to love

1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing d) to take delight in, have pleasure
 
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ToBeLoved

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The Greek word for believe is pisteúō. The Greek definition is a bit different and can be used to imply obedience.

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing

Believing is the first step in which a person will receive the Holy Spirit who will guide them in their walk into repentance and being born again. Once a person receives the Holy Spirit they must abide. Failure to abide without repentance will result in condemnation. John 15:1-10 is a great example of this. Matthew 25:31-46 is another example where the goats were condemned for not abiding. They didn’t produce fruit. Matthew 7:21-27 also gives an example of people who were condemned by their actions. Adhering the the guidance of the Holy Spirit will result in both repentance and abiding and ultimately salvation. A person cannot simply say they believe Jesus is their Savior and live a sinful life without repentance and receive salvation. That would not be evidence of a born again Christian who has become a new creation of the Spirit and not of the world. That would also make a very wide gate to heaven. I’m fact the only way the gate could get any wider is if universalism was true and nothing is required for salvation. Everyone is automatically saved. But the scriptures say the gate is narrow and few find it. Not to mention that no church taught eternal security for the first 1500 years of Christianity. In fact the church taught the opposite.
If I remeber correctly their are other Greek words for both belief and faith.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The church always taught eternal security, it's synonymous with eternal life. Who could put confidence in a temporary salvation, this concept is unknown in the New Testament. Your either saved or your not.

Please quote one of the early church fathers who taught eternal security.
 
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BNR32FAN

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If I remeber correctly their are other Greek words for both belief and faith.

I posted the word that is used in the verses you quoted. In the Bible the word believe as far as I’ve seen is always pisteuo and faith is always pistis which are somewhat similar in definition and both implying obedience or devotion.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Can you explain what part of the post you replied to that these verses are addressing? Or are they not addressing any post

Sorry my phone must not have added the reply portion. It does that sometimes.
 
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For me .. how I always look at this when people ask is.. WHO would ask this? The Father of our lord Jesus Christ would not. It has doubt in it.. and that is NOT of God.. that in its self is sin..doubt. Its not faith. With out faith its impossible to please Him.

This is not something some man on this planet can answer. This GIFT was given by a GOD. A God took all the sins of the world on Him self and died..rose PRAISE GOD GLORY TO YOU JESUS! And then who on this planet can know the heart of any man? God said.. man only sees the flesh.. I see the heart..OT..

As the song playing right now.. haha love it. YOU DONT MAKE MISTAKES! And then this question has as I said doubt and also FEAR. This question does in fact cause FEAR!. And we KNOW THAT Is NOT of God..

So..if you doubt.. confess John 3:16.. can you only say it once? NOT saying it goes away or can be RE applied. haha... and confess your sins.. if you think you missed..and EVERYTHING we fail in.. this forgivness. oh HE IS FAITHFUL ..get that? In all our weakness.. everything we do wrong.. this GOD ..oh praise YOU JESUS. He is FAITHFUL.. God is faithful to what CHRIST DID For the world..

He is faithful. to forgive you and cleans you from ALL unrighteousness.. take HIM at His word.. NOT what I say or any other person on this planet.. they do not know about this.. does not the word say we will after this is all over understand this "salvation"? So... be a child.. and just believe that as we do not keep our word.... HE will keep His.. He is not moved by your sin... HE ALREADY DIED!

Paul talked to Jewish Christians that would sin.. then would go back and try to offer something for that sin. Paul told them .. can Christ die again? He told them.. there is NO MORE SACRIFICE for that sin. Do you see? He died once and for ALL! Thats why Paul kept going.. does that mean we can freely sin? GOD FORBID! We are OF GOD.. and we do NOT desire to sin.. thats why Paul said.. its no longer "I" that sin.. but the sin that is in me. You..your SPIRIT that was made new..can not sin.. that which is born of GOD can not sin.. this FLESH has not been born again.. so we daily die to the flesh.. always fighting this...teh things I dont want to do I do.. the things I want to do I dont...

So.. rejoice.. He came died..and live in today.. right now. I never give this thought any room. So.. if it has doubt.. fear in it.. its not of God.. Fruits of the spirit.. 1st Cor 13.. so on.. are How HE works.. how we can KNOW what is of Him.

Do..you KNOW HIM!
 
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BNR32FAN

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For me .. how I always look at this when people ask is.. WHO would ask this? The Father of our lord Jesus Christ would not. It has doubt in it.. and that is NOT of God.. that in its self is sin..doubt. Its not faith. With out faith its impossible to please Him.

This is not something some man on this planet can answer. This GIFT was given by a GOD. A God took all the sins of the world on Him self and died..rose PRAISE GOD GLORY TO YOU JESUS! And then who on this planet can know the heart of any man? God said.. man only sees the flesh.. I see the heart..OT..

As the song playing right now.. haha love it. YOU DONT MAKE MISTAKES! And then this question has as I said doubt and also FEAR. This question does in fact cause FEAR!. And we KNOW THAT Is NOT of God..

So..if you doubt.. confess John 3:16.. can you only say it once? NOT saying it goes away or can be RE applied. haha... and confess your sins.. if you think you missed..and EVERYTHING we fail in.. this forgivness. oh HE IS FAITHFUL ..get that? In all our weakness.. everything we do wrong.. this GOD ..oh praise YOU JESUS. He is FAITHFUL.. God is faithful to what CHRIST DID For the world..

He is faithful. to forgive you and cleans you from ALL unrighteousness.. take HIM at His word.. NOT what I say or any other person on this planet.. they do not know about this.. does not the word say we will after this is all over understand this "salvation"? So... be a child.. and just believe that as we do not keep our word.... HE will keep His.. He is not moved by your sin... HE ALREADY DIED!

Paul talked to Jewish Christians that would sin.. then would go back and try to offer something for that sin. Paul told them .. can Christ die again? He told them.. there is NO MORE SACRIFICE for that sin. Do you see? He died once and for ALL! Thats why Paul kept going.. does that mean we can freely sin? GOD FORBID! We are OF GOD.. and we do NOT desire to sin.. thats why Paul said.. its no longer "I" that sin.. but the sin that is in me. You..your SPIRIT that was made new..can not sin.. that which is born of GOD can not sin.. this FLESH has not been born again.. so we daily die to the flesh.. always fighting this...teh things I dont want to do I do.. the things I want to do I dont...

So.. rejoice.. He came died..and live in today.. right now. I never give this thought any room. So.. if it has doubt.. fear in it.. its not of God.. Fruits of the spirit.. 1st Cor 13.. so on.. are How HE works.. how we can KNOW what is of Him.

Do..you KNOW HIM!

I agree that for the repentant person they will never lose salvation but what about the one who turns away from God and doesn’t repent?
 
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aiki

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What would OSAS teachers say? A true believer could not take the mark of the beast?

Well, if a Christian was held down and forced to take the "Mark of the Beast," would God cast them out? Of course not. It wasn't the Christian's choice to take the mark. It seems evident to me, then, that the mark isn't what God condemns, that is the reason for God's punishment, but the state of the heart of the person who takes it. If a person wants to take the mark and does, it seems obvious to me that such person, whatever claims to being saved s/he might make, has revealed that s/he is not, in fact, saved. And so, the "Mark of the Beast" is not a problem for the OSAS view.
 
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aiki

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The verse says "Anyone...who worships the beast and takes the mark." Anyone means everyone which refers to both unbelievers and believers.

This is the very reasoning people on your side deny when it comes to John 10:28-29. "No man" is a description of universal scope: "No man" includes the person who thinks they can hand back to God their salvation.
 
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ToBeLoved

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This is the very reasoning people on your side deny when it comes to John 10:28-29. "No man" is a description of universal scope: "No man" includes the person who thinks they can hand back to God their salvation.
Most excellent post!
 
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Not really. I was just curious on people's opinions. I guess in a way it matters. Because if you can lose your salvation than Jesus lied.
Are you standing on John 3:16?
Sincerely, you must come to the point in your
understanding of God and His word that ...
True saving belief = deep heart belief,
deep faith, enduring trust, and obedience.


E.G. Are you aware of the dozen or so NT verses which warn us that our faith must endure until the end of our lives for us to be saved?
I.E. Salvation is a process!
 
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Der Alte

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This is the very reasoning people on your side deny when it comes to John 10:28-29. "No man" is a description of universal scope: "No man" includes the person who thinks they can hand back to God their salvation.
If your interpretation of John 10:28-29 is correct why would Jesus tell His disciples "the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."
Matthew 24:9-13 [Jesus talking to His disciples]
(9) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
(10) At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
(11) and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
(12) Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
(13) but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
This warning would be unnecessary if the saved will stand firm to the end, no matter what.
Colossians 1:22-23
(22) But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
(23) if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Paul is talking to believers who have been reconciled, but Paul evidently believed that they could fail to continue in their faith, and that they could move from the hope held out in the gospel
Ezekiel 18:26-27
(26) If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die.
(27) But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life.
Can a righteous person turn away from their righteousness and sin? If they can they will die for it.
Romans 2:7-8
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
(8) But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
Here is who Paul is talking to, not lost people.
Romans 1:6-7
(6) Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
(7) To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Evidently those called to be saints can reject the truth, follow evil and receive wrath and anger.
Galatians 6:9
(9) Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
Here is who Paul is talking to, not lost people.
Galatians 3:2-3
(2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Evidently those who have received the Spirit can grow weary, give up and not reap a harvest.

 
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PaulCyp1

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No. Once they have their salvation - in Heaven - they cannot lose it. However, no-one still alive on Earth already "has" their salvation. That unbiblical idea, which no Christian on Earth ever heard of until a couple of hundred years ago, is one of the most dangerous false beliefs to come out of the doctrinal chaos of Protestantism.
 
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aiki

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If your interpretation of John 10:28-29 is correct why would Jesus tell His disciples "the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Matthew 24:9-13
9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.
10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.


I don't think the passage indicates that salvation is dependent upon the endurance of a genuine believer who is under persecution but that the pressures of persecution will reveal the reality of a person's claim to be saved ("many will be offended," "the love of many will grow cold." See also 1 John 2:19). The one who endures to the end is the one who is (and so shall be) saved.

Colossians 1:22-23
(22) But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
(23) if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Paul is talking to believers who have been reconciled, but Paul evidently believed that they could fail to continue in their faith, and that they could move from the hope held out in the gospel

I don't see anywhere in this passage where Paul indicates that a genuine believer may lose their salvation. He simply notes the result of saving faith: A faith that perseveres, established and firm in the hope of the Gospel, is a faith that produces a holy life, free from blemish and accusation. A faith that does not persevere is a false faith, the faith of a "tare," that does not hold firm unto the end. If the Colossians claiming to be saved possessed such a faith, they could not expect to remained unmoved from the hope of the Gospel. This is how I understand Paul's words here. And my understanding appears to be reinforced by Paul pointing out that the Colossians had already been reconciled to God; they were not, by dint of their perseverance, securing their reconciliation to God. This certainly seems to coincide well with Paul wrote to the Galatian believers:

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?


Ezekiel 18:26-27
(26) If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die.
(27) But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life.

Can a righteous person turn away from their righteousness and sin? If they can they will die for it.

Coming out of the OT, this passage has no bearing that I can see upon the circumstance of a person under the New Covenant established in and through Christ. It is precisely because the "righteous" person in the OT could not achieve perfect righteousness that animal sacrifices had to be made and Christ, finally, had to die at Calvary. (Romans 3:19-23; Romans 5:12)

Romans 2:7-8
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
(8) But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. Here is who Paul is talking to, not lost people.
Romans 1:6-7
(6) Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
(7) To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Evidently those called to be saints can reject the truth, follow evil and receive wrath and anger.

Was Paul describing believers when he wrote what he did from Romans 1:18 to the end of the chapter? Yes, he starts off his letter acknowledging to whom it he is writing, but this doesn't mean that everything he describes in his letter is in direct reference to the Roman believers. This is certainly true in the last part of chapter 1 and it is true also in the passage from chapter 2 you cite above. Neither passage describes the Romans to whom Paul was writing. These descriptions seem, rather, to be set in distinct contrast to them and as examples of what to avoid. In chapter 2, Paul is speaking (throughout the whole chapter, really) particularly to hypocritical teachers:

Romans 2:1
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.


It's worth noting, too, that Paul doesn't use terms here that stipulate he is referring to Roman believers. Instead, he resorts to "O man" and "whoever you are," not "brethren" as he so often does in other places. At the end of the chapter he continues to describe who he means and his language does not give me cause to think he was referring to Roman believers:

Romans 2:17
17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,


Romans 2:24
24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.


I don't see how it makes sense to think Paul is referring to Roman believers here. It seems to me that his descriptions above make it quite evident that he is not.

Galatians 6:9
(9) Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Here is who Paul is talking to, not lost people.


Galatians 3:2-3
(2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Evidently those who have received the Spirit can grow weary, give up and not reap a harvest.

Paul isn't indicating that good works obtain one's salvation in Galatians 6:9. That would directly contradict his explicit statements in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5. It seems to me, then, that by "a harvest" Paul means the fruit of the good deeds sown by believers: Sowing mercy produces a harvest of mercy (Matthew 5:7); sowing friendliness produces a harvest of friends (Proverbs 18:24); sowing diligence produces a harvest of recognition from superiors (Proverbs 22:29), and so on.

The quotation above from Galatians 3 rather makes my case for me. It clearly excludes works as a means of salvation. As Paul explained in Titus 3:5, the Spirit gives spiritual life to a person entirely independently of their works. Paul simply repeats this fact to the Galatians.
 
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Alithis

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Can a true born again Christian EVER lose their salvation? Is there a point in which a Christian can sin in which they can actually lose their salvation? What about falling away? And other ways people claim you can lose your salvation? Why or why not?
Question.
When was Noah Finally saved from the judgment of God executed via the Flood.?

A. When he believed God so built the Ark?

B.When it started to rain and He got on the Ark
C.while the earth was flooded and he was on the ark
D. After the waters receeded and he stood on dry ground again .?
 
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