Is it possible to be sinless for 5 seconds straight?

Perhaps there is some great sinner that actually will sin every five seconds, but one doing this defies my imagination for how it would be done. We have a conscience provided to us for a reason, even without spiritual regeneration, one can hear their conscience, and act according to it rather than contrary to it. Certainly there is sin when there is action contrary to conscience, a sort of exception to that is with faith in the Bible, with which it is learned something isn't just wrong that was thought to be according to conscience, and that is unlearned for the freedom there can be in Christ. But there isn't just sin every five seconds, or more frequently, from that. With regeneration, with repentance, in Christ, there should be less of giving in to sin. One may learn still there are more things sinful that were not thought to be wrong before, and there should be repentance to those things if they were done.

Jason0047 said:

You are failing to make a Moral Argument to convince me of your belief, and or explaining the Moral Problem I see with your belief. This is nothing new for me in the many years I have discussed with OSAS Proponents before. They have also failed miserably to make a Moral case for OSAS.

As for deriving of Morality:

Well, the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law (Romans 2:14). This is because God has placed into man a certain level of knowing right and wrong (even though many men have darkened their hearts to sin); Especially in these last days. But to say that we cannot know right and wrong and we cannot make judgments is silly. The Bible confirms things in life that we know to be right and wrong by nature.

If a person says that they only learned right and wrong from a Bible, then they are probably a sociopath. It's called a conscience. Life taught me right and wrong, too. God placed in me things that I knew by nature that were wrong long before I read the Bible.

Also, the Holy Spirit convicts the world of it's sin, too (See John 16:8).

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I can agree there is already a conscience any of us already have before regeneration, with which there is understanding of things being right or wrong, though it would not show everything of Yahweh's will for us. We would not know any fully adequate basis for what is understood to be right or wrong with having that. With faith and reading the Bible, knowing the revelation from Yahweh, it can be known there is fully adequate basis for what is right or wrong, and it is above and has priority over conscience.

Oh, and by the way, you also just completely side stepped the issue of the possibility of a child becoming the next George Sodini by hearing an OSAS message. I mean, George heard the OSAS message and he went down the wrong path. It would not be impossible for kids to make the wrong sinful choices because of OSAS, too. In fact, they already have!!! Kids have committed suicide as a result of OSAS. They believed they would be saved, if they killed themselves. So how again is your belief Morally superior or good? I honestly cannot see how it can be in light of these facts.

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I knew nothing of this case but for checking with your reference to this guy. This man doesn't seem to have anything to do with the topic of regeneration, why was he brought up for it? That he heard a minister say you could do any sin and still go to Heaven? If he even understood it that way, which shows nothing of understanding about salvation, it does not show how it applies to this George Sodini. All sin matters, there is no going to Heaven with any sins committed, without regeneration, which happens with repentance coming to Christ through whom it is made possible, that sins do not keep going on without change. So it would matter if sins, and get worse sins, go on afterward without a change shown for betterment, there is no evidence of salvation with that. One is saved when there is evidence of such change showing and such endures, to the end..

FredVB said:

Perhaps there is some great sinner that actually will sin every five seconds, but one doing this defies my imagination for how it would be done. We have a conscience provided to us for a reason, even without spiritual regeneration, one can hear their conscience, and act according to it rather than contrary to it. Certainly there is sin when there is action contrary to conscience, a sort of exception to that is with faith in the Bible, with which it is learned something isn't just wrong that was thought to be according to conscience, and that is unlearned for the freedom there can be in Christ. But there isn't just sin every five seconds, or more frequently, from that. With regeneration, with repentance, in Christ, there should be less of giving in to sin. One may learn still there are more things sinful that were not thought to be wrong before, and there should be repentance to those things if they were done.



I can agree there is already a conscience any of us already have before regeneration, with which there is understanding of things being right or wrong, though it would not show everything of Yahweh's will for us. We would not know any fully adequate basis for what is understood to be right or wrong with having that. With faith and reading the Bible, knowing the revelation from Yahweh, it can be known there is fully adequate basis for what is right or wrong, and it is above and has priority over conscience.



I knew nothing of this case but for checking with your reference to this guy. This man doesn't seem to have anything to do with the topic of regeneration, why was he brought up for it? That he heard a minister say you could do any sin and still go to Heaven? If he even understood it that way, which shows nothing of understanding about salvation, it does not show how it applies to this George Sodini. All sin matters, there is no going to Heaven with any sins committed, without regeneration, which happens with repentance coming to Christ through whom it is made possible, that sins do not keep going on without change. So it would matter if sins, and get worse sins, go on afterward without a change shown for betterment, there is no evidence of salvation with that. One is saved when there is evidence of such change showing and such endures, to the end..

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I think my recent responses here and here in this other thread (I created) will help to answer what you said here.

1 John 2:1a My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.

If it were not possible to cease sinning, why would John have said that?

1 John 2:1b But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

There John says "if" anyone does sin. Not "when" anyone sins. If everyone sins, why didn't he say "when we all sin"?

ClementofA said:

1 John 2:1a My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.

If it were not possible to cease sinning, why would John have said that?

1 John 2:1b But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

There John says "if" anyone does sin. Not "when" anyone sins. If everyone sins, why didn't he say "when we all sin"?

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Then we have a contradiction in the Bible. For there are verses that say we can overcome sin within the Scriptures (See: 1 Corinthians 10:13, Galatians 5:26, Galatians 5:24, Romans 13:14, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, etc.). John says, "my little children" in 1 John 2:1. This lets us know that these are those in the faith who still need to mature and grow so they can walk uprightly with God with enough study, prayer, and walking with Jesus.

Jason0047 said:

Then we have a contradiction in the Bible. For there are verses that say we can overcome sin within the Scriptures (See: 1 Corinthians 10:13, Galatians 5:26, Galatians 5:24, Romans 13:14, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, etc.). John says, "my little children" in 1 John 2:1. This lets us know that these are those in the faith who still need to mature and grow so they can walk uprightly with God with enough study, prayer, and walking with Jesus.

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What contradiction? You didn't state what 2 things are contradictory. Did you misread my post?

ClementofA said:

What contradiction? You didn't state what 2 things are contradictory. Did you misread my post?

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My apologies. I re-read your post again. I misread it. I thought you were defending the view that one could not overcome sin. In my many years on talking on Christian forums: It is so common place to see folks fight against overcoming sin. In fact, I am shocked when I find someone who agrees with me in what the Bible says on this point. But again, my apologies.

May God bless you.

Jason0047 said:

My apologies. I re-read your post again. I misread it. I thought you were defending the view that one could not overcome sin. In my many years on talking on Christian forums: It is so common place to see folks fight against overcoming sin. In fact, I am shocked when I find someone who agrees with me in what the Bible says on this point. But again, my apologies.

May God bless you.

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I agreed with you on that point.

Jason0047 said:

Even life teaches us that not all sin is the same. For do you consider the breaking of the Law of going over the speed limit by 5 miles per hour (in driving a motor vehicle) as the same as the crime as murder? Surely not.

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So, Jason, it's okay to do the little sins because they won't cause loss of salvation?

What other things do you consider little sins can people get away with & still be saved?

Does the Bible expressly forbid watching non Christian movies, listening to worldly music, playing cards, drinking alcohol, masturbation, watching inappropriate content, gambling, etc? Are these what you consider little sins that a person can commit habitually & not lose salvation?

ClementofA said:

So, Jason, it's okay to do the little sins because they won't cause loss of salvation?

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I never said that. I think we should strive to obey all of the Lord's commands in the New Testament.

You said:

What other things do you consider little sins can people get away with & still be saved?

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Wrong choice of words, my friend. It's not about getting away with anything. It is more of a reality or a truth than a license to do wrong. True believers will want to obey God in everything the Lord commands of them.

But if you desire a list of sins that do not lead to spiritual death, I have not done an entire study yet on this one to give you an exhaustive list or anything. But here is what I have discovered so far:


Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

However, the Bible describes those kinds of grievous sins that will cause of a loss of salvation (See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, 1 Corinthians 16:22, 1 John 3:15, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8).

You said:

Does the Bible expressly forbid watching non Christian movies, listening to worldly music,

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Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (1 John 2:15).

Movies have sinful things in them and they can make Christians commit grievous sin like lusting wrongfully or in them picking up of certain swear words, etc.

You said:

playing cards,

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I think it depends on the card game. There are Bible related card games out there. There are also sinful card games out there, too.

You said:

drinking alcohol,

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Social drinking: I think it depends on the person's conscience. If they know the reality of alcohol is a poison like myself, they could not drink it without their conscience condemning them (Being a grievous sin). As a medicine (when no other drug is available to help alleviate pain, etc.) it is acceptable.

I have spoken on the topic of alcohol here in this thread at CF (if you are looking for verses).

masturbation, watching inappropriate content,

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One cannot do these things without lust. Jesus says that just looking at a woman in lust is committing adultery in one's heart and they can be cast into hell fire bodily for it (See Matthew 5:28-30).

You said:

gambling,

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Gambling is about the love of money (1 Timothy 6:10) (Hebrews 13:5).
The love of money is the root of all evil.

You said:

Are these what you consider little sins that a person can commit habitually & not lose salvation?

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I would consider many of these to be a loss of salvation, unless one repents (i.e. seeks forgiveness with the Lord over their these kinds of sins).

Is it possible to never ever sin your entire life and/or after you are saved...?

Just asking...?

God Bless!

Jason0047 said:

I never said that. I think we should strive to obey all of the Lord's commands in the New Testament.



Wrong choice of words, my friend. It's not about getting away with anything. It is more of a reality or a truth than a license to do wrong. True believers will want to obey God in everything the Lord commands of them.

But if you desire a list of sins that do not lead to spiritual death, I have not done an entire study yet on this one to give you an exhaustive list or anything. But here is what I have discovered so far:

#1. 1 John 5:16-17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help. In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that had not death penalties attached to it. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.​

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

However, the Bible describes those kinds of grievous sins that will cause of a loss of salvation (See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, 1 Corinthians 16:22, 1 John 3:15, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8).



Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (1 John 2:15).

Movies have sinful things in them and they can make Christians commit grievous sin like lusting wrongfully or in them picking up of certain swear words, etc.



I think it depends on the card game. There are Bible related card games out there. There are also sinful card games out there, too.



Social drinking: I think it depends on the person's conscience. If they know the reality of alcohol is a poison like myself, they could not drink it without their conscience condemning them (Being a grievous sin). As a medicine (when no other drug is available to help alleviate pain, etc.) it is acceptable.

I have spoken on the topic of alcohol here in this thread at CF (if you are looking for verses).



One cannot do these things without lust. Jesus says that just looking at a woman in lust is committing adultery in one's heart and they can be cast into hell fire bodily for it (See Matthew 5:28-30).



Gambling is about the love of money (1 Timothy 6:10) (Hebrews 13:5).
The love of money is the root of all evil.



I would consider many of these to be a loss of salvation, unless one repents (i.e. seeks forgiveness with the Lord over their these kinds of sins).

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Jason, thank you for a very thorough reply. Good thoughts there.

Also i have a comment to your opening remarks here:

Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

Jason0047 said:

How do you make sense of verses like Matthew 7:23 where Jesus tells certain believers to depart from him because they work iniquity? The greek word is "anomia" (Which is where we get the word "Antinomian."). Antinomians are those who are lawless. Do you believe that you can be saved by just having a belief on Jesus? Did Jesus say in Matthew 7:23, depart from me you who do not believe in my sacrifice alone? No. While we do need to believe in Jesus as our Savior first to be saved, this is not at the expense of the necessity of good works and holiness. Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that God has chosen us from the beginning to salvation by two things. One is a belief and the other is Sanctification of the Spirit (i.e. Holy living).

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The OSAS could see Mt.7:23 referring to those who were never truly saved. And Heb.12:14 referring to the holiness that being born again brings. Heb.5:9 similarly or to the obedience of belief. Likewise 2 Thess.2:13 & 1 Jn.1:7.

aiki said:

This is the straightforward, natural reading of the term "brethren." Go back to Paul's remarks in the chapter just before and he says some things that make it pretty clear he thought he was writing to fellow born-again believers:

1 Corinthians 2:12
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1 Corinthians 2:16
16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Who is the "we" of whom Paul is speaking? Himself, obviously, and the Corinthian believers to whom he is writing. And it is those who have received the "spirit which is of God" and who possess "the mind of Christ" that Paul calls "brethren" in the first verse of chapter 3.

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Paul refers to the "spiritual":

1 Cor.2:15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.

Which excludes the Corinthians:

1 Cor.3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men,

aiki said:

So, yes, Paul did mean to say that he considered the Corinthians - carnal, envious, and divisive though they were - to be fellow members of God's family. He made this even more plain when, just a bit farther in to chapter 3, he wrote of the Corinthian believers:

1 Corinthians 3:9
9 ...you are God's field, you are God's building.

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Paul did not know if all the Corinthians who professed Christ were saved. Many people who profess Him are not saved. Paul speaks as if they were, but elsewhere makes it clear that not all of them may be:

1 Cor.15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

The Corinthians had issues with various sins such as idolatry & immorality which if not forsaken exclude a person from salvation:

1 Cor.6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Even the sins Paul speaks of in 1 Cor.3:3 exclude from salvation:

1 Cor.3:3b For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?

Gal.5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure, grievous wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock, 30 and out from your own selves, men will rise up, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them.

aiki said:

We have, here, then, people Paul identified as genuine believers but who were living in sin. Instead of suggesting their salvation was in danger, he wrote that, even if all they had built upon the foundation of Christ their Saviour was burnt up in the Final Judgment, they would still enter into heaven.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

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I would interpret that passage as saying even if they lose their salvation through sin (v.17) they will still be saved postmortem:

1 Cor.3:17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Those who build with silver, which typifies Christ's redemption, build with true faith in His sacrifice. Those who build with "wood, hay, straw" build with sin:

1 Cor.3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Like the one in v.17 who is destroyed, those who live in sin will suffer loss, yet still be saved, though by fire:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

aiki said:

I'm afraid this just makes my case for me. Paul clearly implies that the man to be "put away" was a member of the family of God, a brother in the faith, and not one who was outside it. Paul, then, seems to have believed that one could be a genuinely saved person and still be guilty of very serious sin.

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He was merely "called" a brother by the unspiritual Corinthians who were failing to deal properly with the sinful man. Paul himself calls him "wicked". He was to be given over to Satan so that his sinful flesh might be destroyed & his spirit "might" be saved in the day of the Lord. If the fellow repented through this disciplinary method then he would be admitted back into the fellowship of the church, & forgiven, which it seems is what probably occurred as per 2 Corinthians. As long as he continued in his sin of "fornication" he was excluded from salvation, i.e. the kingdom of God:

1 Cor.6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither FORNICATORS, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

ClementofA said:

Paul refers to the "spiritual":

1 Cor.2:15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.

Which excludes the Corinthians:

1 Cor.3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men,

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If the Corinthians were excluded from the spiritual, why did Paul write an entire letter to them about spiritual matters?

ClementofA said:

Paul did not know if all the Corinthians who professed Christ were saved. Many people who profess Him are not saved. Paul speaks as if they were, but elsewhere makes it clear that not all of them may be:

1 Cor.15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

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1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

Verse 2 when coupled with the verse just before it and connected to the later portion of the chapter rather defeats your contention here. What about "also received and in which you stand" suggests Paul thought some of the Corinthians might not have been saved? He was confirming that they were in fact saved (start of verse 2) which was why he was writing to them in the first place. For the Gospel to have any positive effect in their lives, however, they needed to hold fast to it entirely and not believe the false teaching that was being pressed upon them that there was no resurrection from the dead. (verse 15) As Paul explained, if the dead do not rise, then Christ was not risen (verse 16). And if Christ was not risen, the Corinthians remained yet in their sins (verse 17). Paul, then, wasn't saying in verse 2 that some of the Corinthians weren't saved, but rather that they were being tempted to adopt a false teaching that would make vain their saving belief in the Gospel.

ClementofA said:

The Corinthians had issues with various sins such as idolatry & immorality which if not forsaken exclude a person from salvation:

1 Cor.6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

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I don't see anywhere in this passage Paul saying that the Corinthians can lose their salvation. He is saying only what is obvious: people who live lives of persistent, unrepentant sin are not saved (that is, they have yet to be saved).

ClementofA said:

Even the sins Paul speaks of in 1 Cor.3:3 exclude from salvation:

1 Cor.3:3b For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?

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Nope. This is another clear contortion of Paul's words:

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

Paul is explicit here that he believed the carnal Corinthians to whom he was writing were IN CHRIST. He did not go on to say that their carnality caused them to lose their salvation but instead described the baby Christian Corinthians as follows:

1 Corinthians 3:8-9
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.

Here, again, Paul confirmed that the Corinthians were of God, they were God's "field" and His "building," His possessions, carnal and sinful though they were.

ClementofA said:

Gal.5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

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This passage says not one thing about a believer losing his salvation. Rather, Paul is warning that people who make a practice of sin will not inherit God's kingdom. Why? Because a person who is truly saved does not make a practice of these things. Paul is saying, essentially, not that a life of sin causes one to lose one's salvation, but that such a life is proof that one is not yet a born-again inheritor of God's kingdom.

ClementofA said:

I would interpret that passage as saying even if they lose their salvation through sin (v.17) they will still be saved postmortem:

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There is no such thing as post-mortem salvation. That is a fantasy of the R.C. church.

ClementofA said:

He was merely "called" a brother by the unspiritual Corinthians who were failing to deal properly with the sinful man. Paul himself calls him "wicked". He was to be given over to Satan so that his sinful flesh might be destroyed & his spirit "might" be saved in the day of the Lord. If the fellow repented through this disciplinary method then he would be admitted back into the fellowship of the church, & forgiven, which it seems is what probably occurred as per 2 Corinthians. As long as he continued in his sin of "fornication" he was excluded from salvation, i.e. the kingdom of God:

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I could agree that the fellow judged by Paul in chapter 5 was possibly not yet a believer though he was clearly an accepted member of the community of Corinthian Christians. Jesus warned of such people in the Church, calling them "tares." The sinning member being a "tare" would certainly account well for his wicked carrying-on. The complete lack of any reference to him as a believer or brother by Paul certainly is very suggestive of his "tare" status. There just isn't any ground at all, though, for asserting that he was saved and then lost. That has to be read into the chapter; it is not possible to draw it out of what Paul wrote.

aiki said:

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

Verse 2 when coupled with the verse just before it and connected to the later portion of the chapter rather defeats your contention here. What about "also received and in which you stand" suggests Paul thought some of the Corinthians might not have been saved? He was confirming that they were in fact saved (start of verse 2) which was why he was writing to them in the first place. For the Gospel to have any positive effect in their lives, however, they needed to hold fast to it entirely and not believe the false teaching that was being pressed upon them that there was no resurrection from the dead. (verse 15) As Paul explained, if the dead do not rise, then Christ was not risen (verse 16). And if Christ was not risen, the Corinthians remained yet in their sins (verse 17). Paul, then, wasn't saying in verse 2 that some of the Corinthians weren't saved, but rather that they were being tempted to adopt a false teaching that would make vain their saving belief in the Gospel.

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It seems to me Paul's words are clear & that he does not have the assurance that all those to whom he is writing who profess faith in Christ in Corinth & are called "brother" or "sister" are necessarily saved:

1 Cor.15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you-

If Paul was assured that - everyone - of them there was saved, then what point would those words have? Does Paul have some gift to know that there were no tares among the wheat. He himself warns of such:

Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure, grievous wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock, 30 and out from your own selves, men will rise up, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them.

aiki said:

I don't see anywhere in this passage Paul saying that the Corinthians can lose their salvation. He is saying only what is obvious: people who live lives of persistent, unrepentant sin are not saved (that is, they have yet to be saved).

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My post wasn't addressing the issue of whether or not "the Corinthians can lose their salvation" or the OSAS theory, but that those who do such things as these are not saved:

1 Cor.6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Does one need to "live lives of persistent, unrepentant sin" such as those sins in 1 Cor.6:9 to be categorized as unsaved? Or would one act of adultery do that? Would you feel confident that if you died while committing such an act, and did not confess or repent of it before death, that you would be saved?

Mt.5:28 But I say to you that everyone looking upon a woman in order to lust after her already has committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 And if your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and cast it from you. For it is better for you that one of your members should perish and not that your whole body should be cast into Gehenna.

Prov.28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Heb.5:9 and having been perfected, He became the author of eonian salvation to all those obeying Him

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, and unfit for any good deed.

1 John 2:3 By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.

aiki said:

Nope. This is another clear contortion of Paul's words:

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

Paul is explicit here that he believed the carnal Corinthians to whom he was writing were IN CHRIST.

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He says "as" (hos) to babes in Christ. That's a figure of speech, not a statement of fact. If i speak to a man "as/like" to a child, that doesn't mean he is literally a child or that i believe that is the case. 1 Cor.3:15 says "as" (hos) by fire. That doesn't mean people will burn literally in a literal fire.

aiki said:

He did not go on to say that their carnality caused them to lose their salvation but instead described the baby Christian Corinthians as follows:

1 Corinthians 3:8-9
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.

Here, again, Paul confirmed that the Corinthians were of God, they were God's "field" and His "building," His possessions, carnal and sinful though they were.

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Again loss of salvation is a non issue. And again Paul is using figures of speech. He goes on in the rest of the epistle to repeatedly question whether the salvation of the Corinthians is real (1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:9-10; 15:1-2, etc).

aiki said:

There is no such thing as post-mortem salvation. That is a fantasy of the R.C. church.

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It's not only the RCC, but also by many in the EOC, early church fathers, etc.

aiki said:

I could agree that the fellow judged by Paul in chapter 5 was possibly not yet a believer though he was clearly an accepted member of the community of Corinthian Christians. Jesus warned of such people in the Church, calling them "tares." The sinning member being a "tare" would certainly account well for his wicked carrying-on. The complete lack of any reference to him as a believer or brother by Paul certainly is very suggestive of his "tare" status. There just isn't any ground at all, though, for asserting that he was saved and then lost. That has to be read into the chapter; it is not possible to draw it out of what Paul wrote.

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Again loss of his salvation is a non issue. And what use is it to believe in OSAS if you don't even have assurance of your own personal salvation:

2 Cor.13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Will a belief in OSAS save you? And if you have the assurance of personal salvation as per 2 Cor.13:5, of what use is the doctrine of OSAS?

Furthermore, what if you are wrong about OSAS? Or wrong in the view that a single sin does not cause loss of your salvation? Wouldn't the prudent course be to avoid all sin at any cost? Why give people an excuse & licence to sin a little bit, as long as it isn't to "live lives of persistent, unrepentant sin"? So occasional unrepentant sin is ok, as long as it isn't "persistent, unrepentant sin"?

1 John 1:7 Butb if we should walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
9 If we should confess our sins, He is faithful and just, that He may forgive us our sins and might cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you might not sin. And if anyone should sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous One.

ClementofA said:

It seems to me Paul's words are clear & that he does not have the assurance that all those to whom he is writing who profess faith in Christ in Corinth & are called "brother" or "sister" are necessarily saved:

1 Cor.15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you-

If Paul was assured that - everyone - of them there was saved, then what point would those words have?

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Well, as I pointed out, the surrounding context of verse 2 prohibits the construction you're trying to place upon Paul's words. So, while it may seem clear to you that Paul was in doubt about the spiritual condition of those to whom he was writing, what he actually wrote in the passage in question indicates he was not:

"...you have received..." (vs. 1)
"...wherein you stand..." (vs. 1
"...by which also you are saved..." (vs. 2)
"...you believed..." (vs. 11)

ClementofA said:

Does one need to "live lives of persistent, unrepentant sin" such as those sins in 1 Cor.6:9 to be categorized as unsaved? Or would one act of adultery do that? Would you feel confident that if you died while committing such an act, and did not confess or repent of it before death, that you would be saved?

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Regardless of how they behave (moral or immoral), all are unsaved who have not repented (Matthew 4:17; Acts 3:19) of a life lived apart from God, who have not confessed their sin to God (1 John 1:9), and who have not trusted in Christ as their Saviour and Lord (Romans 10:9-10).

ClementofA said:

He says "as" (hos) to babes in Christ. That's a figure of speech, not a statement of fact. If i speak to a man "as/like" to a child, that doesn't mean he is literally a child or that i believe that is the case. 1 Cor.3:15 says "as" (hos) by fire. That doesn't mean people will burn literally in a literal fire.

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My point was not to Paul's adverbial use of "as" but to the modifying phrase "in Christ." "As unto babes" expresses an equivalence between the Corinthian Christians and "babes." Paul explains exactly what equivalency he is intending:

1 Corinthians 3:2
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;

What about the phrase "in Christ," though? Is it expressing an equivalency? No, it's not. It simply confines Paul's "babes" simile to one single type: babes that are in Christ. The "in Christ" phrase, then, is not figurative but serves a defining and thus limiting purpose. Scripture uses this phrase to refer only to those who are born-again. I can think of no place in the NT where it is ever used in the manner of a simile or metaphor. Your grammatical observations above do not change this at all. Paul was describing baby-like Christians.

ClementofA said:

And again Paul is using figures of speech. He goes on in the rest of the epistle to repeatedly question whether the salvation of the Corinthians is real (1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:9-10; 15:1-2, etc).

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The metaphors Paul used, figurative though they were, expressed an actual state of affairs: the fact of God's possession of the Corinthians. This fact is not at all affected by it being expressed in a metaphoric form.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

Paul here asked a rhetorical question, he did not express doubt about the Corinthians' salvation. In fact, there is nothing here that indicates salvation is in view at all. Paul restricted his comments to the physical, not the spiritual; the "temple" being a reference to the material body of human beings.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

How does Paul's list of sins here cast doubt upon the Corinthians' salvation? Paul merely described the conduct of the unregenerate which he used as a contrast to the Corinthians about whom he wrote in the very next verse:

1 Corinthians 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

There is no doubt here, then, that Paul cast upon the Corinthian believers. Instead, he confirmed their salvation.

ClementofA said:

Again loss of his salvation is a non issue. And what use is it to believe in OSAS if you don't even have assurance of your own personal salvation:

2 Cor.13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

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??? Paul makes it clear here that one can make certain of one's salvation. What point is there in examining oneself if such an examination leaves one still in doubt? And Scripture is replete with a list of those characteristics that mark a true, born-again child of God: a love of the brethren, a love of the word of God, a desire to be holy, the Fruit of the Spirit, conviction of sin, illumination of the mind to God's truth, and so on. One really can know if one is saved or not.

ClementofA said:

Will a belief in OSAS save you? And if you have the assurance of personal salvation as per 2 Cor.13:5, of what use is the doctrine of OSAS?

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Has someone said a belief in OSAS saves a person? I never have.

How does it follow that if one has assurance of salvation, a belief in OSAS is unnecessary? Does it follow that if one falls out of a tree, a belief in the Law of Gravity is useless? No. OSAS is a description of the facts of the matter soteriologically. I find this description very helpful, particularly in countering false teachings on salvation like the SAL (saved and lost) view, the erroneous sinless perfection doctrine, and works-salvation beliefs.

ClementofA said:

Furthermore, what if you are wrong about OSAS? Or wrong in the view that a single sin does not cause loss of your salvation? Wouldn't the prudent course be to avoid all sin at any cost?

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Well, it doesn't follow that, because I subscribe to the OSAS view, I don't pay very close attention to holy living.

If I'm wrong and a single sin causes the loss of salvation, then no one is going to be in God's heavenly kingdom. But, of course, there is plenty of excellent scriptural support for denying such a belief about the power of sin.

The reality is that no one will ever get anywhere close to God's holy, infinite perfection. We must certainly strive always to move closer to His holy example but doing so is like walking from one side of the universe to the other. It is the person who has made God very small who thinks they can be perfectly holy as He is in their daily living.

ClementofA said:

Why give people an excuse & licence to sin a little bit, as long as it isn't to "live lives of persistent, unrepentant sin"? So occasional unrepentant sin is ok, as long as it isn't "persistent, unrepentant sin"?

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Here is the Strawman the SAL folk always seem to throw up in protest of the OSAS view. But it is a Strawman. It doesn't follow that because Christ has fully and eternally justified and sanctified every believer before God positionally, that believers who know this will run off into a life of licentiousness and sin. OSAS is not the view that one is free to sin a little. This a contortion, a cartoon, of what I believe. As a proponent of OSAS, I hold holy living very, very important. But as vital as such living is, it does not - it cannot - save. Salvation is a Person (1 John 5:11-12), not a type of living. And in that Person, every believer obtains all that God requires to be fully and eternally accepted by Him (1 Corinthians 1:30-31).

aiki said:

Well, as I pointed out, the surrounding context of verse 2 prohibits the construction you're trying to place upon Paul's words. So, while it may seem clear to you that Paul was in doubt about the spiritual condition of those to whom he was writing, what he actually wrote in the passage in question indicates he was not:

"...you have received..." (vs. 1)
"...wherein you stand..." (vs. 1
"...by which also you are saved..." (vs. 2)
"...you believed..." (vs. 11)

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By quoting bits & pieces of verses out of context one gets such false ideas as "there is no God" (Psa.14:1).

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

2. "you are saved, if"

In the statement "you are a good girl, if...you made your bed" the speaker is not saying the girl is a good girl. Whether or not she is a good girl is in question. It is conditional, depending on something she did. Yet by your reasoning you would quote the "you are a good girl" portion only & declare she is a "good girl" when that is actually not stated and in doubt.

1 Cor.15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you-

If Paul was assured that - everyone - of them there was saved, then what point would those words have? Does Paul have some gift to know that there were no tares among the wheat. He himself warns of such:

Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure, grievous wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock, 30 and out from your own selves, men will rise up, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them.

Here again Paul is in doubt of the salvation of "many" of the Corinthians:

“Yes, I am afraid that when I come again, God will humble me in your presence. And I will be grieved because many of you have not given up your old sins. You have not repented of your impurity, sexual immorality, and eagerness for lustful pleasure.” (2 Corinthians 12:21, NLT)

I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged. (2 Cor.12:21, NIV)

2 Cor.7:8 Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Although I did regret it, I now see that my letter caused you sorrow, but only for a short time. 9 And now I rejoice, not because you were made sorrowful, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you felt the sorrow that God had intended, and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation without regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

1 Cor.15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

aiki said:

Well, it doesn't follow that, because I subscribe to the OSAS view, I don't pay very close attention to holy living.

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Yet i see you claiming the Corinthians were saved while engaging in what you call sin, sin that they had not confessed and forsaken. Yet Scripture says:

Prov.28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

BTW, evidently, OSAS preacher Joseph Prince teaches one can be addicted to such things as these & still be saved:

1 Cor.6: 9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph.5:3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

Col.3:5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Gal.5:19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Some OSAS preachers even say a believer who loses his faith is still saved.

aiki said:

If I'm wrong and a single sin causes the loss of salvation, then no one is going to be in God's heavenly kingdom.

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Not so because some true Christians don't sin & many other true believers who have sinned confess & forsake their sins to receive forgiveness.

Prov.28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

aiki said:

The reality is that no one will ever get anywhere close to God's holy, infinite perfection.

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Heb.12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

1 John 2:6 The one claiming to abide in Him ought also walk just as in the same way that He walked.

1 Peter 1:13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

aiki said:

We must certainly strive always to move closer to His holy example but doing so is like walking from one side of the universe to the other. It is the person who has made God very small who thinks they can be perfectly holy as He is in their daily living.

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Is that a licence to sin? Do you think all Christians have to sin?

John says "if" any of you sin (1 John 2:1-2), not "when" you sin.

aiki said:

OSAS is not the view that one is free to sin a little. This a contortion, a cartoon, of what I believe. As a proponent of OSAS, I hold holy living very, very important.

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Do OSAS advocates think they have to sin? How often? Every day? Every 5 seconds?

aiki said:

But as vital as such living is, it does not - it cannot - save. Salvation is a Person (1 John 5:11-12), not a type of living.

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Works don't save. But a true believer has good works & is changed, not wallowing in sin and addictions to vices:

Heb.5:9 and having been perfected, He became the author of eonian salvation to all those obeying Him

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, and unfit for any good deed.

1 John 2:3 By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.

If one is not doing that, then they should examine themselves as to whether or not they are truly in the faith & act accordingly.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

James 1:16
Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.

James 1:22
Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves.

ClementofA said:

By quoting bits & pieces of verses out of context one gets such false ideas as "there is no God" (Psa.14:1).

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It's possible, yes. But what is possible is not always, therefore, probable.

ClementofA said:

In the statement "you are a good girl, if...you made your bed" the speaker is not saying the girl is a good girl.

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He is if she has been making her bed.

ClementofA said:

Whether or not she is a good girl is in question.

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Not if she has been making her bed.

ClementofA said:

Yet by your reasoning you would quote the "you are a good girl" portion only & declare she is a "good girl" when that is actually not stated and in doubt.

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Nope. As I've explained, Paul was really clear about the kind of person he believed he was talking to. Ignoring this and focusing upon the word "if" is just a very obvious deflection.

ClementofA said:

If Paul was assured that - everyone - of them there was saved, then what point would those words have?

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I already answered this.

ClementofA said:

Here again Paul is in doubt of the salvation of "many" of the Corinthians:

“Yes, I am afraid that when I come again, God will humble me in your presence. And I will be grieved because many of you have not given up your old sins. You have not repented of your impurity, sexual immorality, and eagerness for lustful pleasure.” (2 Corinthians 12:21, NLT)

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Where does Paul say anything here about the Corinthians' salvation being in doubt? He simply says he fears encountering them still messing around with the sins of their past.

ClementofA said:

Yet i see you claiming the Corinthians were saved while engaging in what you call sin, sin that they had not confessed and forsaken.

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Hey, talk to Paul, not me. He's the one who made clear that the carnal Christians to whom he wrote were "in Christ" and "brethren."

ClementofA said:

BTW, evidently, OSAS preacher Joseph Prince teaches one can be addicted to such things as these & still be saved:

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Yes, and? I'm not Joseph Prince. Who, by the way, I think is a false teacher.

ClementofA said:

Some OSAS preachers even say a believer who loses his faith is still saved.

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And others don't. What's your point? A believer who loses his faith never really had a saving faith to begin with.

ClementofA said:

Not so because some true Christians don't sin

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Baloney.

ClementofA said:

Heb.12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

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Don't see the mention of perfect holiness here...

ClementofA said:

1 John 2:6 The one claiming to abide in Him ought also walk just as in the same way that He walked.

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Yes, one ought to. But this doesn't mean one necessarily will.

ClementofA said:

1 Peter 1:13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

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This is the ideal. Every believer ought every day to be striving toward being holy as God is holy. But how does setting this as the goal automatically mean it is attainable? You'll notice, too, that this passage never sets the standard for holiness at the level of perfection. God is holy and so we ought to be as well but, as I said, we can no more approach God's divine holy perfection than we can approach one side of the universe by walking from the other. Even after a lifetime of walking, one would only be a tiny fraction of the distance still to be crossed in order to reach the other side. Likewise, even after a lifetime of growing in holiness, we will have only come a tiny fraction of the way toward His divine and perfect holiness.

ClementofA said:

Is that a licence to sin? Do you think all Christians have to sin?

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Goodness, no! Read Romans 6! But not having to sin doesn't necessarily mean one won't sin.

ClementofA said:

Do OSAS advocates think they have to sin? How often? Every day? Every 5 seconds?

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Strawman. Believing one will sin isn't the same as believing one has to sin. My dog doesn't have to pick up a stick, and chew on it, and carry it around - it's not like I'm forcing him to do so, or that he has some irresistible stick instinct - but he will if he's outside and finds a suitable one.

ClementofA said:

Works don't save. But a true believer has good works & is changed, not wallowing in sin and addictions to vices

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Who said anything about Christians "wallowing in sin"? I certainly didn't! This is just another Strawman characterization of the OSAS perspective.

aiki said:

Where does Paul say anything here about the Corinthians' salvation being in doubt? He simply says he fears encountering them still messing around with the sins of their past.

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The sins of 2 Cor.12:21 are the same that exclude people from salvation/the kingdom of God in 1 Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-20. That includes the sin of the "brother" of 1 Cor. 5 who was excommunicated from the fellowship for the purpose of bringing him to salvation.

2 Cor.12:21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged. (NIV)

2 Cor.7:8 Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Although I did regret it, I now see that my letter caused you sorrow, but only for a short time. 9 And now I rejoice, not because you were made sorrowful, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you felt the sorrow that God had intended, and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation without regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

1 Cor.15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Paul refers to the Corinthian church as God's field, God's building (3:9), i.e. God's temple (3:16-17) that could be destroyed by God:

1 Cor.3:16 Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is holy, which you are.

The Greek word for "destroy" (1 Cor.3:17 above) is also used in 2 Pet.2:12 where it is the fate of the unsaved:

2 Pet.2:12 But these, like irrational animals, having been born as creatures of instinct for capture and destruction, blaspheming in what they are ignorant of, in their destruction also will be destroyed,

To his disciples Jesus said:

Mt.10:28 And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

aiki said:

Hey, talk to Paul, not me. He's the one who made clear that the carnal Christians to whom he wrote were "in Christ" and "brethren."

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Paul also refers to a "brother" who is not saved (1 Cor.5) and a "brother" who perishes (1 Cor.8:13):

1 Cor8:13 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
2 Cor.2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish.

Paul says brothers go to law against one another (1 Cor.6:6) do wrong & defraud one another (verse 8) & that the unrighteous (v.9), thieves & covetous (1 Cor.6:10) shall not be saved (inherit God's kingdom):

1 Cor.6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Evidently either their salvation was in danger, if not already lost, or they never were saved.

"Similarly, in the 1st Corinthian epistle, the apostle warns against causing to “perish” the weak brother for whom Christ died (1 Corinthians 8:11). To “perish” is the opposite of being “saved” (see 2 Corinthians 2:15). Elsewhere in the first letter Paul commands the saints of the Corinthian congregation to discipline this fornicating brother, so that his “spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (1 Corinthians 5:5). Additionally, he admonishes these brethren to “hold fast the word” so that they would not have “believed in vain” (15:2; cf. 2 Corinthians 6:1)." But Were They Really Saved?

"In 2 Corinthians 13:5, Paul said this to the Corinthians: "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" Those who are IN THE FAITH are those who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and who are thus INDWELT BY HIM. If Jesus Christ is not in a person, then that person is not saved. Romans 8:9 implies that Paul was aware of the possibility that some of his readers may not have been true Christians. In 1 Corinthians 15:2 Paul stated that some of his readers were not saved if they had believed in vain, not holding fast to the truth of the gospel." Did Paul Always Assume His Readers Were Saved?

aiki said:

Hey, talk to Paul, not me. He's the one who made clear that the carnal Christians to whom he wrote were "in Christ" and "brethren."

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Where does Paul say all of the Corinthians who professed Christ were sinning? Where does he say if those sinning didn't cease from sinning they would still be saved & not be lost? Where does he say they were sinning willfully with full knowledge that they were sinning?

"...As in any mature congregation or missionary group that works with converts knows, some church members persevere in faith, and others do not. Some fall away after showing much fervency in faith at an earlier time, and yet others fall away without showing much faith at all."

"...those who hold to a doctrine of the assurance of salvation must not exploit this belief and change it into cheap grace and a license to sin. Presumption of this sort is precisely the type of notion Paul comes against in 1 Cor 10:12 and Romans 6:1. Despite those who would like to claim eternal security or “once saved, always saved,” the reality of the matter is that the phenomenon of apostasy happens to people who profess faith all the time, and there is no way of knowing in advance whether any person will be immune to it throughout their entire life. Believers should be humble and diligent, then, to maintain fellowship with God in Christ and with fellow believers. They also should confirm that their conduct exemplifies faith, love for one’s neighbor, and the practice of virtues related to the Spirit, and shunning vices (Gal 5:6, 16 23; 1 Cor 8:1b; 13:4 13; Rom 1:5; 1 Thess 1:3). In this way they may exemplify obedience to the Lord and perhaps what Paul calls the “obedience of faith” (Rom 1:5)."
Saved with a Loss of Reward Only? Another Look at 1 Corinthians 3:10–17

I posted:

Not so because some true Christians don't sin & many other true believers who have sinned confess & forsake their sins to receive forgiveness.

Prov.28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

In response to:

Not so because some true Christians don't sin

You said:

aiki said:

Baloney.

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The title of this thread is "Is it possible to be sinless for 5 seconds straight?" Do you not believe that is possible? If a Christian died instantly 5 seconds after becoming a Christian, could they have been a Christian who doesn't sin? How about if the Christian died 5 hours, 5 days, 5 months or 5 years after becoming a Christian? How long can a Christian go without sinning? Did the aged apostle Paul sin every minute or every hour? Or do you think he could have made it through a day or week or month or year without sinning?

John says "if" any of you sin (1 John 2:1-2), not "when" you sin.

I just don't know if I can be sinless, without it being sinful in the process, and, having the pressure that, if after that, I ever commit any sin ever again, that I'm gonna be, well, for lack of a better word, maybe gonna be "toast" basically, that's to much pressure to put on any human being, but if there were, or I felt there were a way, I would take it in a heartbeat...

Maybe that's why I cannot seem to fully repent yet...

Is that kind of thinking wrong or in error...? Jesus bore that for us so we would not have to right...?

God Bless!