What about the 2 witnesses Revelation 11

Who or what are the 2 witnesses symbolizing in Rev 11


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FIRESTORM314

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[quote[Revelation 11:

Thanks for posting.....Good question.
I may perhaps be those inside the Sanctuary that are sealed and protected from the wrath in Revelation.


.

Gentlemen ,

I would say the statements are a dream cipher key. It is the key to unlock Revelation 21 and REVEAL a hidden Truth. The words measure and count are keyword symbols. When you see a measure then you must do some counting. Count the stones.

Nothing is impossible with God and I would suggest the dream/vision has been ciphered with hidden secrets. My spiritual nose tells me there are seven such hidden secrets within the texts. The number of the beast is but one of them. We must therefore find the keys.

Let the one who has understanding calculate...
That would therefore be me ;)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LastSeven said:
Only if you believe those clues are literal. Couldn't fire out of the sky be symbolic? Couldn't rain and no-rain be symbolic? Couldn't water turned to blood be symbolic?
Sure, but that doesn't mean they're literal. The Bible, especially Revelation, is full of symbolism that aids in understanding.
To me, those phrases are plainly there to aid in identification of the witnesses.
Seeing the scriptures, aka the law and the prophets, as the identity of the witnesses is not a literal interpretation.
There is a lot of OT Hebrew symbolism in Revelation.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/allusions-in-revelation-from-old-testament.7588850/

The key to interpreting the Revelation is, for the most part, the Old Testament. Period.

And you apply these symbols used in Revelation that were taken from the Old Testament to the life of Jesus and the early church. You find the stories of the Old Testament, from which Revelation takes references, actually PARALLEL Jesus and the early church!

I guarantee, that if you were to start recognizing this, you would wonder in absolute glory at the wisdom of God in ending the Bible with this book! (And I might add you would chuckle at the literal interpretation). You would!

First of all, Revelation begins using TEMPLE SYMBOLS. Candlesticks mentioned as being BEHIND JOHN, who has to TURN and see where the voice comes. When he TURNS, he sees the seven candlesticks (the seven-branched menorah). If he had to TURN, then where in the tabernacle would he have faced if the candlesticks were directly BEHIND HIM? They were SOUTH in the holy place. That means, John faced NORTH.

REVELATION IF FILLED WITH OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source! That’s, IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation. That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!

One man saw 235 references in Revelation from the writings of the Prophets.

57 from the Pentateuch.

56 from historical and poetic books of the Bible.

So anyone can see that Revelation is founded upon the Old Testament more than any other New Testament book! God is not going to give visions to His people using unknown references and symbols. The whole point is REVELATION! It is REVEALING!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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bump for more discussion...........:ebil:

This is pretty interesting:

Matthew 23:34
“Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes:
some of them you will kill and crucify,
and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues
and persecute from city to city,

Luke 11:49
“Therefore the wisdom of God also said,
‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’

Revelation 11:7
When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.


.


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Erik Nelson

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Rev 1:7 = Matt 24:30 = Daniel 7:13 + Zechariah 12:10

Zech 12:10 = "all of the tribes of the land [G1093] shall mourn b/c of Him"

the only tribes of any land who ever mourned because of Him = 70 AD

"land" in Rev refers to "land of Judah & Israel", even as "sea" refers to the pagan Roman empire

Have we missed the second coming?
Kenneth L. Gentry

The whole Judeo-Christian view of history is linear, as opposed to pagan preferences for cycles...

suggests strongly that Revelation is chronological and linear, not cyclical
 
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BABerean2

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Zech 12:10 = "all of the tribes of the land [G1093] shall mourn b/c of Him"

the only tribes of any land who ever mourned because of Him = 70 AD

John said that part of Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled at Calvary.

Zec 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."


The Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost.


Act 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.



Erik,

Everything in the New Testament is not about 70 AD.


.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Most (all?) of the "commoners" mourned Calvary = Luke 23:48

between Luke 23:48, John 19:34-36, Acts 2:1-4...

all of Zech 12:10 was fulfilled in c.30 AD (gentleman's bet, it was actually 29 AD, a Sabbatical year)

no, I'm not a hyper-preterist, just trying to stimulate discussion to figure things out ASAP

John said that part of Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled at Calvary.

Zec 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.


Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."


The Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost.


Act 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Erik,


Everything in the New Testament is not about 70 AD.

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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This was posted on another thread and thought it may be more applicable on this thread as the 2 witnesses were brought up.
What Did The ECF Believe About End Times
What do the Two Witnesses symbolize, based on what is clearly written in scripture?

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

Are they two men made of wood and metal?

What did Christ say about the symbol of the "lampstands" in the Book of Revelation?


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Christ said the lampstands are a symbol of the churches.
Should we think the symbol has changed later in the book?

What symbol did Paul use to represent the New Covenant Church in Romans chapter 11?

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Paul used the two Olive Trees to symbolize the Church.

Therefore, the most logical interpretation would be that the two witnesses are a symbol of the Church.

They are killed for their witness, and are then resurrected from the dead, and then ascend into a cloud right before the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

We also find "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.

You cannot have a judgment of the dead, without a bodily resurrection of the dead.

.
Have the 2 witnesses already being resurrected, or is it future or present ongoing?
Another words when do/did they come?

.

,
 
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BABerean2

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This was posted on another thread and thought it may be more applicable on this thread as the 2 witnesses were brought up.
What Did The ECF Believe About End Times
Has the 2 witnesses already being resurrected, or is it future or present ongoing?
Another words when do/did the come?

.

,

It occurs in the future as described in John 5:27-30, which did not happen during 70 AD.

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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It occurs in the future as described in John 5:27-30, which did not happen during 70 AD.

.
Do you view the Temple/Sanctuary in Revelation 11:1 as the one in 70ad, still future or just symbolic?
It seems that the 2 witnesses are mentioned as coming while the Temple is still standing. How can that be future unless another Temple is built before the 1000yr period?

Luke 21:
5 And certain saying about the Temple, that with goodly stones and devoted things it hath been adorned, he said,
20 'And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by encampments, then know that come nigh did her desolation;

Revelation 11:
1 And there was given to me a reed like to a rod, and the messenger stood, saying, 'Rise! and measure! the Temple/Sanctuary of God, and the Altar, and those worshiping in it;
2 and the court that is without the Sanctuary cast out outside, and thou mayest not measure it,
because it was given to the nations, and the holy City they shall tread down forty-two months;
3 and I will give to My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy days, a thousand, two hundred, sixty, arrayed with sackcloth;

Sackcloth is only mentioned in 4 verses of the NT, 2 each in the Gospels and Revelation... Is Jesus talking about Jews in those cities?

Mat 11:21
Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida!
For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon,
they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Luk 10:13
Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida!
For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon,
they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
"sackcloth" occurs 47 times in 46 verses

Jer 6:26 O daughter of my people,
Dress in sackcloth
And roll about in ashes!
Make mourning as for an only son, most bitter lamentation;
For the plunderer will suddenly come upon us.

Revelation 11:
1 And there was given to me a reed like to a rod, and the messenger stood, saying, 'Rise! and measure! the Temple/Sanctuary of God, and the Altar, and those worshiping in it;

Joel 1:13
Gird yourselves and lament, you priests; Wail, you who minister before the altar;
Come, lie all night in sackcloth,
You who minister to my God;
For the grain offering and the drink offering
Are withheld from the house of your God.

.
 
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DavidPT

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Do you view the Temple/Sanctuary in Revelation 11:1 as the one in 70ad, still future or just symbolic?

I can't answer for anyone else, but as to me though, no I don't see that meaning the temple in 70 AD. It therefore must be symbolic.

It makes no sense that anyone would be still worshiping in the 2nd temple after Christ's death and resurrection, and that God would see this as a good thing.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I can't answer for anyone else, but as to me though, no I don't see that meaning the temple in 70 AD. It therefore must be symbolic.

It makes no sense that anyone would be still worshiping in the 2nd temple after Christ's death and resurrection, and that God would see this as a good thing.
Preterist view a lot of RevelThen so would the rest of Revelation......such as the great City and Lake of Fire.....

Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?

Ezekiel 22:
1 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying,
2 ‘And thou, son of adam! dost thou judge? dost thou judge the City of blood? then thou hast caused it to know all its abominations,
17 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, ‘Son of adam!
18 The House of Israel hath been to Me for dross, All of them [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, In the midst of a furnace — dross hath silver been,
19 Therefore, thus says 'Adonay Yahweh:
Because of your all becoming dross, Therefore, behold! I am gathering you unto the midst of Jerusalem,
20 A gathering of silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, Unto the midst of a furnaceto blow on it fire, to melt it,
So do I gather in Mine anger and in My fury, And I have let rest, and have melted you.
21 And I have heaped you up, And blown on you in the fire of My wrath<5678>, And ye have been melted<5413> in its midst.
22 As the melting of silver in the midst of a furnace, So are ye melted in its midst,
And ye have known that, I Yahweh, have poured out My fury<2534> upon you.’

Ezekiel 24:6
Therefore, thus said the Adonay Yahweh:
Woe to the City of blood, A pot whose scum is in it, And its scum hath not come out of it, By piece of it, by piece of it bring it out, Not fallen on it hath a lot.


.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Preterist view a lot of RevelThen so would the rest of Revelation......such as the great City and Lake of Fire.....

Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?

Ezekiel 22:
1 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying,
2 ‘And thou, son of adam! dost thou judge? dost thou judge the City of blood? then thou hast caused it to know all its abominations,
17 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, ‘Son of adam!
18 The House of Israel hath been to Me for dross, All of them [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, In the midst of a furnace — dross hath silver been,
19 Therefore, thus says 'Adonay Yahweh:
Because of your all becoming dross, Therefore, behold! I am gathering you unto the midst of Jerusalem,
20 A gathering of silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, Unto the midst of a furnaceto blow on it fire, to melt it,
So do I gather in Mine anger and in My fury, And I have let rest, and have melted you.
21 And I have heaped you up, And blown on you in the fire of My wrath<5678>, And ye have been melted<5413> in its midst.
22 As the melting of silver in the midst of a furnace, So are ye melted in its midst,
And ye have known that, I Yahweh, have poured out My fury<2534> upon you.’

Ezekiel 24:6
Therefore, thus said the Adonay Yahweh:
Woe to the City of blood, A pot whose scum is in it, And its scum hath not come out of it, By piece of it, by piece of it bring it out, Not fallen on it hath a lot.


.
son of Adam = son of Man
same expression
 
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BABerean2

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Do you view the Temple/Sanctuary in Revelation 11:1 as the one in 70ad, still future or just symbolic?

The location of the temple in Revelation 11 is found at the end of the passage.
It is just as real as the computer I am now using.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.


Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

..................................................

Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev_7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Rev_14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.


.
 
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Douggg

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Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 21;22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Being made a pillar in the temple of God, Jesus is talking about always being in inseparable relationship with God eternally.
 
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BABerean2

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Being made a pillar in the temple of God, Jesus is talking about always being in inseparable relationship with God eternally.

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

.
 
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DavidPT

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The location of the temple in Revelation 11 is found at the end of the passage.
It is just as real as the computer I am now using.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.


Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

..................................................

Don't forget to include verse 2 though.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This court is obviously part of the temple in view in verse 1. If that temple in verse 1 is literally meaning in heaven, then so must this court literally be in heaven. We then end up with nonsense that there is this court outside of the temple in heaven, where it is given to the Gentiles in heaven, where they, in heaven, tread under foot forty and two months. I don't think so. Nope, can't work.
 
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BABerean2

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Don't forget to include verse 2 though.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This court is obviously part of the temple in view in verse 1. If that temple in verse 1 is literally meaning in heaven, then so must this court literally be in heaven. We then end up with nonsense that there is this court outside of the temple in heaven, where it is given to the Gentiles in heaven, where they, in heaven, tread under foot forty and two months. I don't think so. Nope, can't work.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Are you forgetting that the verses were added to the text after it was written?

There is a break after the word "Gentiles:".

"the holy city" does not necessarily go with the the beginning of the verse.


What does the word "court" mean?
It is the "yard" or open space, which is outside of the temple.

G833
αὐλή
aulē
ow-lay'
From the same as G109; a yard (as open to the wind); by implication a mansion: - court, ([sheep-]) fold, hall, palace.
Total KJV occurrences: 12

.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Are you forgetting that the verses were added to the text after it was written?

There is a break after the word "Gentiles:".

"the holy city" does not necessarily go with the the beginning of the verse.


What does the word "court" mean?
It is the "yard" or open space, which is outside of the temple.

G833
αὐλή
aulē
ow-lay'
From the same as G109; a yard (as open to the wind); by implication a mansion: - court, ([sheep-]) fold, hall, palace.
Total KJV occurrences: 12

.
isn't that reading alot into the text?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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What does the word "court" mean?
It is the "yard" or open space, which is outside of the temple.
G833
.
The court was outside the Sanctuary where the water laver and bronze altar of sacrifice was, which is shown being "cast out outside" signifying to the 1st century Priests "NO MORE SACRIFICES"..........

Hebrews 10:
5 Wherefore, coming into the world, he saith, 'Sacrifice and offering Thou didst not will, and a body Thou didst prepare for me,
8 saying above -- 'Sacrifice, and offering, and burnt-offerings, and concerning sin-offering Thou didst not will, nor delight in,' -- which according to the law are offered -
11 and every priest, indeed, hath stood daily serving, and the same sacrifices many times offering, that are never able to take away sins.


The Court in Revelation 11:2


G3485 (YLT)

Revelation 11:2
and the Court/aulhn <833> without of the Sanctuary<3485>, be thou Casting-Out! out-side, and thou mayest not be measuring it,
that it was given to the nations.
And the holy city they shall be trampling forty and two months


John the Baptist's dad is shown doing service in it in Luke 1:

Luke 1:
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest, by name Zacharias, of the course of Abijah, and his wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name Elisabeth; 6 and they were both righteous before God, going on in all the commands and righteousnesses of the Lord blameless, 7 and they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and both were advanced in their days.

8 And it came to pass, in his acting as priest, in the order of his course before God, 9 according to the custom of the priesthood, his lot was to make perfume, having gone into the Sanctuary<3485> of the Lord, 10 and all the multitude of the people were praying without, at the hour of the perfume.
11 And there appeared to him a Messenger of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of the perfume,


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BABerean2

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The court was outside the Sanctuary where the water laver and bronze altar of sacrifice was, which is shown being "cast out outside" signifying to the 1st century Priests "NO MORE SACRIFICES"..........

Hebrews 10:
5 Wherefore, coming into the world, he saith, 'Sacrifice and offering Thou didst not will, and a body Thou didst prepare for me,
8 saying above -- 'Sacrifice, and offering, and burnt-offerings, and concerning sin-offering Thou didst not will, nor delight in,' -- which according to the law are offered -
11 and every priest, indeed, hath stood daily serving, and the same sacrifices many times offering, that are never able to take away sins.


The Court in Revelation 11:2


G3485 (YLT)

Revelation 11:2
and the Court/aulhn <833> without of the Sanctuary<3485>, be thou Casting-Out! out-side, and thou mayest not be measuring it,
that it was given to the nations.
And the holy city they shall be trampling forty and two months


John the Baptist's dad is shown doing service in it in Luke 1:

Luke 1:
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest, by name Zacharias, of the course of Abijah, and his wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name Elisabeth; 6 and they were both righteous before God, going on in all the commands and righteousnesses of the Lord blameless, 7 and they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and both were advanced in their days.

8 And it came to pass, in his acting as priest, in the order of his course before God, 9 according to the custom of the priesthood, his lot was to make perfume, having gone into the Sanctuary<3485> of the Lord, 10 and all the multitude of the people were praying without, at the hour of the perfume.
11 And there appeared to him a Messenger of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of the perfume,


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Would all of planet earth be outside of the heavenly temple?
 
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