Main Problems w "A" or "Post" Millenialism?

Erik Nelson

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Revelation 21:3
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Look. This verse describing the time of the new heaven and new earth proves that God the father does not currently reign over his kingdom, because we are not currently his people and he is not currently our God (strictly speaking). We will be his people, and he will be our God, when Jesus hands over the kingdom to God the father.
I think you are correct.

The Tabernacle of God is Jesus Christ. John 1:14.

AFTER the Second Coming. Of Jesus on God's throne. In Revelation 20:10. Then BOTH. Jesus Christ the Son, the Word. AS WELL AS God the Father. Will be present with people up on this planet?
 
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BABerean2

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Then BOTH. Jesus Christ the Son, the Word. AS WELL AS God the Father. Will be present with people up on this planet?

Not on this planet, based on the scripture below.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.



2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


.

 
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Erik Nelson

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Not on this planet, based on the scripture below.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

.
Alright agreed, both shall be present in the new heavens, New Earth, arriving at this old Earth. At the time of final judgment.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Revelation 16:14
For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and[fn] of the whole earth/οἰκουμένη (oikoumenē)<3625>, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
"kings of the land"

Matthew 2:6 and similar

oikoumene = ecumenical = Roman empire = beast of the sea

land = land of Judah and Israel = Matthew 2:21
 
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parousia70

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John said 'it is the last hour'. This is one very long 'last hour'.

And, John is right. It has been the 'last hour' this entire time.

Why was it NOT the Last Hour 500 years before when Daniel Wrote?

What Makes 2000 years = Near, soon, at hand, about to take place, end of the age, shortly, the last days, & the last hour, but 2500 years = Not near, a long time, a long way off, and Far?

Does language in scripture ever mean anything concrete, or can we just make it mean anything we want based on our previously held bias?

I can not help but see a double standard, here. You are saying the Millennium has already come, and a lot of the events of Revelation - at least depicted in the text - which happen before the Millennium, has not come yet. Correct?

What sort of Bias are you basing this on?
I thought you were opposed to approaching the text with a previously held bias, yet here you are approaching the text with a clear bias.
How do you reconcile that? Maybe it's only OK when YOU do it?

I do not take that viewpoint, I believe a lot of the events depicted in Revelation before the Millennium is depicted have already happened. Some have happened many centuries ago.

I mostly agree with this, but I'd say ALL happened centuries ago.. not some.

Some of the events which Jesus prophesied would happen, did happen. Just a few decades later.

Such as?

Plenty of the events depicted in Revelation you do not believe have happened yet.

Or, do you? For all I know you could be a full preterist.

I'm a BIBLICAL PRETERIST, and a CREEDAL FUTURIST.

Every Biblical eschatological passage found it's PRIMARY fulfillment in the 1st century.
That does not preclude the Future to us Consummation found in the Creeds, but the timing and details of that event have not been revealed to men (Deuteronomy 29:29)

I am a partial preterist myself.
Most Christains are.

So, this kind of throws the time standard out the window. Unless you want to honestly apply that standard to your own beliefs... right?

I reject the notion that Biblical time statements can be stretched, twisted, elasticized and spiritualized away into meaningless argle-bargle, (such as "its been the last hour for 1900+ years") just to conform scripture to fit a previously heald futurist bias.

Jesus is granted all authority on Heaven and earth....

And how is it you can say you believe this while at the same time claim Satan, not Jesus, Rules the earth today?

Are you merely giving lip service to Jesus' claim of authority, or do you actually believe Jesus, NOT Satan, is the sole ruler of the earth today?
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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Why was it NOT the Last Hour 500 years before when Daniel Wrote?

What Makes 2000 years = Near, soon, at hand, about to take place, end of the age, shortly, the last days, & the last hour, but 2500 years = Not near, a long time, a long way off, and Far?

Does language in scripture ever mean anything concrete, or can we just make it mean anything we want based on our previously held bias?



What sort of Bias are you basing this on?
I thought you were opposed to approaching the text with a previously held bias, yet here you are approaching the text with a clear bias.
How do you reconcile that? Maybe it's only OK when YOU do it?



I mostly agree with this, but I'd say ALL happened centuries ago.. not some.



Such as?



I'm a BIBLICAL PRETERIST, and a CREEDAL FUTURIST.

Every Biblical eschatological passage found it's PRIMARY fulfillment in the 1st century.
That does not preclude the Future to us Consummation found in the Creeds, but the timing and details of that event have not been revealed to men (Deuteronomy 29:29)


Most Christains are.



I reject the notion that Biblical time statements can be stretched, twisted, elasticized and spiritualized away into meaningless argle-bargle, (such as "its been the last hour for 1900+ years") just to conform scripture to fit a previously heald futurist bias.



And how is it you can say you believe this while at the same time claim Satan, not Jesus, Rules the earth today?

Are you merely giving lip service to Jesus' claim of authority, or do you actually believe Jesus, NOT Satan, is the sole ruler of the earth today?

You do not know my beliefs. I did not state "I believe Satan rules the earth today", as you claim I stated. I was speaking in hypotheticals, 'if the Seventh Trumpet has not sounded, then the kingdom of the world is still under Satan'.

As you seem to believe, as many amillenialists believe, that the Seventh Trumpet has not sounded.

But, they are all wrong, the Seventh Trumpet has, already sounded. Not 'a long time ago', however, but lately. In the past five decades or so.

So, I can state with absolute power and authority, 'the kingdom of this world has become the Kingdom of God and Christ'.

The Millennium, however, is starting, it certainly has not begun. The dead certainly have not been raised yet. Babylon has not yet fallen. The 'Beast' and the 'False Prophet' have not yet been thrown in the Lake of Fire. And the flesh of the whole world has not yet been gorged upon by the birds.

The wheels are already in motion, for all of that to happen, soon.

It certainly has not already happened.

As for 'how things have worked before this', yes, Satan was 'the prince of this world', as Jesus taught.

He is not any longer.

The world is under new Management.

'The Times, they are a changing'...
 
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DavidPT

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But, they are all wrong, the Seventh Trumpet has, already sounded. Not 'a long time ago', however, but lately. In the past five decades or so.

So, I can state with absolute power and authority, 'the kingdom of this world has become the Kingdom of God and Christ'.


You do realize though, that the 7th trumpet can't precede any of the following, correct?

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Explain how all of these things have already come to pass. Even verse 13 I can't say I recall hearing about anything like that happening recently.The third woe can't precede the 1st and 2nd woe. It is during/after the 3rd woe that the 7th trumpet apparently sounds.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I think you are correct.
The Tabernacle of God is Jesus Christ. John 1:14.
AFTER the Second Coming. Of Jesus on God's throne. In Revelation 20:10. Then BOTH. Jesus Christ the Son, the Word. AS WELL AS God the Father. Will be present with people up on this planet?
Tabernacle/booth is an interesting study

I like to look up where some words are used in the rest of the NT, but particularly the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.......

It is used as "booth/tent" by Peter at the great event of the transfiguration, when Moses and Elijah appeared.....AWESOME!

Matthew 17:4
And Peter said to the Jesus "Lord! ideal it is for us to be here.
If Thou are willing, I shall be making here three booths/skhnaV <4633>,
to Thee one, and to Moses one, and Elijah one.
Leviticus 23:42
`In booths/5521 cukkah ye dwell seven days
all who are natives in Israel dwell in booths/5521 cukkah,
The word "booth" in NT/NC

Judaism 101: Sukkot

4637. skenoo from 4636;
to tent or encamp, i.e. (figuratively) to occupy (as a mansion) or (specially), to reside (as God did in the Tabernacle of old, a symbol of protection and communion):-- dwell.
4633. skene apparently akin to 4632 and 4639;
a tent or cloth hut (literally or figuratively):--habitation, tabernacle.


The particular word John used in John 1:14 is used in only 4 other verses, all in Revelation.....

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and tabernacles<4637> in us, and we esteem the glory of Him,
glory as an Only-begotten beside Father, full of Grace and Truth.

Revelation 7:15

“Therefore they are before the throne of God, and divinely-serve Him day and night in His Sanctuary.
And He who sits on the throne shall be tabernacling<4637> among them.

Revelation 12:12
- “Therefore be making merry! O heavens and those tabernacling <4637> in them!
Woe to the inhabitants of the land and the sea!
For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath,
because he knows that he has a short time.”

Revelation 13:6

Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God,
to blaspheme His Name, His tabernacle<4637> ,
and those dwelling in the heaven.
Mat 26:65 - Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!
Reve 16:11 And they blaspheme the God of the heaven out of the miseries of them, and out of the sores of them, and not they reform out of the works of them
Rom 2:24
'For the name of the God is being blasphemed in the nations because of ye' according as it has been written.'
Revelation 21:3
And I heard a great voice out the heaven saying, “Behold! the tabernacle<4633> of God is with men, and He shall be tabernacling<4637> with them, and they shall be His people.
God Himself will be with them and be their God.

..................




.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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well you might be right... If the 7th trumpet refers to the turning over to God at Christ's physical second coming = revelation 20:10 ff

My perspective is alien, but it shares some commonalities with some popularly held beliefs.

My perspective:

The text is in order, as it is laid out, in Revelation, with the breaking of the Seven Seals, the Seven Trumpets, the Three Woes, and the Seven Bowls.

The coming of the Kingdom of God, on earth, happens after the Seventh Trumpet.

That is, Jesus returns with a very large contingency of Angels of His Father, on earth.

The 'kings of the nations' see this, and this is why they 'gather at the place called 'Armageddon''. This is why Jesus warns, through the Angel of the Lord, 'Behold, I come as a thief'.

This is not as it was in the past, where, for instance, the disciples looked up and saw floating in the sky, what appeared to be a legion of angels. The angels come to the ground.

They are 'among you'.

The 'kings of the world', the 'beast', and the 'false prophet' do not recognize them for what they are, and come to war against them.

You know how that turns out.

Revelation 19


17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.


Then, the reign of Jesus on earth is made apparent, and the dead in Christ are raised. That is the Age of Power, where the saints 'rule with Christ for a thousand years'. Jesus must reign until all enemies are put down, and the final enemy is death.


We are now living after the Seventh Trumpet has sounded, but before the destruction of the Beast and the False Prophet. And before the devastation of all human kind. We are before the visible reign of Christ, and before the first resurrection.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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You do realize though, that the 7th trumpet can't precede any of the following, correct?

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Explain how all of these things have already come to pass. Even verse 13 I can't say I recall hearing about anything like that happening recently.The third woe can't precede the 1st and 2nd woe. It is during/after the 3rd woe that the 7th trumpet apparently sounds.


This lack of knowledge, on earth, of the Two Witnesses and their ministry, was forewarned, by the very Prophet who introduced to earth their existence.

Even he did not know who they were.

Zechariah 4

4 Then the angel who talked with me returned and woke me up, like someone awakened from sleep. 2 He asked me, “What do you see?”

I answered, “I see a solid gold lampstand with a bowl at the top and seven lamps on it, with seven channels to the lamps. 3 Also there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left.”

4 I asked the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?”

5 He answered, “Do you not know what these are?”

“No, my lord,” I replied.

...

11 Then I asked the angel, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”

12 Again I asked him, “What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?”

13 He replied, “Do you not know what these are?”

“No, my lord,” I said.

14 So he said, “These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth.”



Even the Apostles did not recognize Elijah as John the Baptist, and Jesus replied, "Elijah does come, and restores all things. But, I tell you Elijah has come, but they did not recognize him, and did to him all that Scripture said they would do to him". At this, the Apostles recognized that Jesus was talking about John the Baptist.

Neither the Jews nor the Romans recognized Jesus for who he is.


The two witnesses were killed by the Beast, and they are well known to this day. They did rise from the dead, and were seen after their death, before their ascension to Heaven.


The coming of the Kingdom of God is on earth, and it is not like human nations and organizations. It is not manmade. It is of God and Jesus Christ, and the great number of Angels Jesus brings with him.

If the 'kings of the earth' and 'the Beast' and 'False Prophet' understood what they were coming against, they would not come against them. But, they do, and it devastates the entire world population.

2 Thessalonians 2


'8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.'

That splendor is nothing like what the world has ever seen before.

'As the Heavens are higher then the earth, so are my ways higher then mankind's ways.'
 
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claninja

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What I'm wanting someone to logically explain, the fact there is a rapture at the 2nd coming, and that everyone in attendance at the GWTJ were all physically dead at some point, how these raptured alive somehow end up among the dead at this judgment?

If I'm understanding you correctly, you appear to be asking how can those who are raptured alive at Christ's coming be among the dead at the at the GWTJ?

To that I would respond, Revelation 20 does not mention those raptured or those living at the GWTJ. Revelation 20 only mentions the dead being present at the GWTJ.
Revelation 20:11-12 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.


I would argue the GWTJ is when Jesus comes.
Revelation 20:13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

Revelation 22:12 Look, I AM COMING SOON! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.


And if the last trump precedes this judgment, which means the saved have already put on immortality before the time of this judgment, how do immortals die after they have put on immortality in order to stand in front of God at this judgment?

The last trumpet is blown at the coming of the Lord, and the dead are judged: some to eternal life, some to eternal punishment

Revelation 11:15-18 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying,“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations raged,
but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.


1 Corinthians 15:52 For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable,

Maybe the book of life is there as a record book, and that God looks for their names in it but can't find them, and not that the book of life is present because the saved are being judged there as well?

I just find it interesting that at the GWTJ, the dead are not throne in the lake of fire for their deeds written in the "books", but are only throne in the lake of fire if they are not named in the book of life.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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My perspective is alien, but it shares some commonalities with some popularly held beliefs.
No more alien than my perspective of 1st century Jerusalem symbolizing the "geheena/lake of fire" in Revelation. Might be worth publishing.........."IT IS FINISHED"!

Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?
Gehenna/Lake of Fire/Jerusalem

Matthew 23
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>
37 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather<1996> your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

38 Behold! Your House is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>
Luke 13:35
Behold! Your House is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>,

Revelation 18:
17 ‘For in one hour such great riches was desolated<2049>.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance
19 - “They cast dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth!
For in one hour She was desolated.’<2049>

Then I key in the phrase "dust on heads" to see where it is used in the OT. Makes harmonizing a lot easier, imho........

Joshuah 7:6
Then Joshua tore his clothes, and fell to the earth on his face before the ark of the LORD until evening,
he and the elders of Israel; and they put dust on their heads.
Lamentations 2:10
The elders of the daughter of Zion Sit on the ground and keep silence;
They throw dust on their heads And gird themselves with sackcloth.
The virgins of Jerusalem Bow their heads to the ground.

1st century Jerusalem became like Tyre and suffered the same fate:

Ezekiel 27:
17 “Judah and the land of Israel were your traders. They traded for your merchandise wheat of Minnith, millet, honey, oil, and balm.
30 They will make their voice heard because of you;
They will cry bitterly and cast dust on their heads; They will roll about in ashes

Then I look up the phrase "elders of Israel" in the NT.
Listed in 2 verses, both in Acts:

Acts 4:8

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them,
“Rulers of the people and elders of Israel:

Act 5:21
And when they heard that, they entered the temple early in the morning and taught. But the high priest and those with him came and called the council together,
with all the elders of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.


.
 
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DavidPT

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I just find it interesting that at the GWTJ, the dead are not throne in the lake of fire for their deeds written in the "books", but are only throne in the lake of fire if they are not named in the book of life.

So why is every man being judged according to his works then? If works don't help to determine one's fate, why bother judging anyone according to their works? Seems pointless if that were the case. When someone is tried and sentenced in a court of law for a crime or crimes they have committed, isn't it what they did that they are being punished for?
 
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LastSeven

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So why is every man being judged according to his works then? If works don't help to determine one's fate, why bother judging anyone according to their works? Seems pointless if that were the case. When someone is tried and sentenced in a court of law for a crime or crimes they have committed, isn't it what they did that they are being punished for?
They are judged according to their works for rewards.

Revelation 22:12
And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to everyone according to his work.”

Revelation 2:23

I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.”
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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No more alien than my perspective of 1st century Jerusalem symbolizing the "geheena/lake of fire" in Revelation. Might be worth publishing.........."IT IS FINISHED"!

Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?
Gehenna/Lake of Fire/Jerusalem

Matthew 23
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>
37 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather<1996> your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

38 Behold! Your House is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>
Luke 13:35
Behold! Your House is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>,

Revelation 18:
17 ‘For in one hour such great riches was desolated<2049>.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance
19 - “They cast dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth!
For in one hour She was desolated.’<2049>

They I key in the phrase "dust on heads" to see where it is used in the OT. Makes harmonizing a lot easier, imho........

Joshuah 7:6
Then Joshua tore his clothes, and fell to the earth on his face before the ark of the LORD until evening,
he and the elders of Israel; and they put dust on their heads.
Lamentations 2:10
The elders of the daughter of Zion Sit on the ground and keep silence;
They throw dust on their heads And gird themselves with sackcloth.
The virgins of Jerusalem Bow their heads to the ground.

1st century Jerusalem became like Tyre and suffered the same fate:

Ezekiel 27:
17 “Judah and the land of Israel were your traders. They traded for your merchandise wheat of Minnith, millet, honey, oil, and balm.
30 They will make their voice heard because of you;
They will cry bitterly and cast dust on their heads; They will roll about in ashes

Then I look up the phrase "elders of Israel" in the NT.
Listed in 2 verses, both in Acts:

Acts 4:8

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them,
“Rulers of the people and elders of Israel:

Act 5:21
And when they heard that, they entered the temple early in the morning and taught. But the high priest and those with him came and called the council together,
with all the elders of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.


.


Well, the judgment of what came on Jerusalem, Israel, and the Jews in the first century was absolutely horrible.

Especially, if you consider how that land was left desolate, afterwards, and the terrible treatment the Jews had in years afterwards. Millenia afterwards.


I did not include the truly hard to believe stuff in my telling, though I do not think flesh can take seriously the possibility of angels on earth in a great mass.

In disguise.

But, unfortunately, I can not state the identity of the two witnesses, at this time. Because, no one 'on earth', would be able to believe it.

They will, though.
 
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But, unfortunately, I can not state the identity of the two witnesses, at this time. Because, no one 'on earth', would be able to believe it.

They will, though.
Come on now. Everybody wants to know who the two witnesses are. You can't tease us with a statement like that and then not say.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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Come on now. Everybody wants to know who the two witnesses are. You can't tease us with a statement like that and then not say.

Ohhhh... hehehehe... this is a good one. :)

Hahaha...

*big grin*

I will speak of one, but only one.

They always spoke in metaphor, in code, you could tell, even when they didn't.

They always 'had something up their sleeve'.

They predicted their own death.

They did wear rough clothing, and you could say it is sackcloth. But, the sackcloth was really the disguise that they took. The way they obscured their person. Hiding their stature.

They were controversial, and accused of a crime they did not commit, which led to their death.

Their words were fire, and their beauty uncontested. They hid who they were, but they also always said it.

They were seen after their death, and it did scare people. But, many stories are told of them, some truth, some disinformation.

So, this, like much else, is hard to find.

They were charming, and brilliant, capable of of doing anything. And, their beauty is incontestable.

No one else has ever been like them.

Some close to them were convinced they faked their own death. One objected, saying, he could not be here, as everyone would know it. (The irony, if you think on it.)

Whatever the case, they made their getaway.

Leaving behind the fame and riches.

Taking new disguises.

Just as they said they would.

And, their last words? Well. They are going to last.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Revelation 7:15
“Therefore they are before the throne of God, and divinely-serve Him day and night in His Sanctuary.
And He who sits on the throne shall be tabernacling<4637> among them.
So, Jesus Christ is He who sits on the Throne of God the Father (presumably according to God's Will and Grace)

Revelation 12:12 - “Therefore be making merry! O heavens and those tabernacling <4637> in them!
Woe to the inhabitants of the land and the sea!
For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath,
because he knows that he has a short time.”
land = Judah
sea = Roman empire
the D*v*l deceived them both... and they wound up at each others' throats, the former torching Rome almost to the ground in 64 AD (per Gerhard Baudy), the latter eventually avenging themselves on Jerusalem 6 years later (70 AD)

Revelation 13:6
Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God,
to blaspheme His Name, His tabernacle<4637> ,
and those dwelling in the heaven.Revelation 21:3
And I heard a great voice out the heaven saying, “Behold! the tabernacle<4633> of God is with men, and He shall be tabernacling<4637> with them, and they shall be His people.
God Himself will be with them and be their God.
Christ tabernacles with men on earth at present through the Church = Body of Christ = Christ-like figure of Revelation 19, "sword tongue" = Gospel preached by Church converting Roman empire to Christ in 3rd-4th centuries, e.g. St. Lawrence in 258 AD
that's generally

meanwhile, specfically
Constantine + Saintly Mother Helena = Jesus + Mary...
in earthly reflection of Divine (of course)
 
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Erik Nelson

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My perspective is alien, but it shares some commonalities with some popularly held beliefs.

My perspective:

The text is in order, as it is laid out, in Revelation, with the breaking of the Seven Seals, the Seven Trumpets, the Three Woes, and the Seven Bowls.

The coming of the Kingdom of God, on earth, happens after the Seventh Trumpet.

That is, Jesus returns with a very large contingency of Angels of His Father, on earth.

The 'kings of the nations' see this, and this is why they 'gather at the place called 'Armageddon''. This is why Jesus warns, through the Angel of the Lord, 'Behold, I come as a thief'.

This is not as it was in the past, where, for instance, the disciples looked up and saw floating in the sky, what appeared to be a legion of angels. The angels come to the ground.

They are 'among you'.

The 'kings of the world', the 'beast', and the 'false prophet' do not recognize them for what they are, and come to war against them.

You know how that turns out.

Revelation 19


17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.


Then, the reign of Jesus on earth is made apparent, and the dead in Christ are raised. That is the Age of Power, where the saints 'rule with Christ for a thousand years'. Jesus must reign until all enemies are put down, and the final enemy is death.


We are now living after the Seventh Trumpet has sounded, but before the destruction of the Beast and the False Prophet. And before the devastation of all human kind. We are before the visible reign of Christ, and before the first resurrection.
Armageddon = location where Roman legions came ashore in 66/67 AD, and assembled for their march southwards to Jerusalem

Babylon = Jerusalem (1 city), destroyed 70 AD
Beast of Sea = Roman empire (1 continent), converted 258 AD by Saint Lawrence
Millennium = Byzantine Christian era (4th - 15th centuries AD)
"little time" of Gog & Magog = modern era (1453 AD to present)

Christ has authority on earth at present through the Church = "body" of Christ
Christ the "head" will return on the Great White Throne of God at Judgement = Revelation 20:9 and following (sometime "Biblically soon")

Prophesy versus 1 city (fulfilled, check, 70 AD)
Prophesy regarding 1 continent-sized empire (fulfilled, check, 3rd-4th centuries AD)
...

God is "2 for 2" on an increasing scale of size...

gives us confidence that God will wind up "3 for 3" on the Final Judgement of the whole entire planet earth

city -> continent -> planet
 
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Ohhhh... hehehehe... this is a good one. :)

Hahaha...

*big grin*

I will speak of one, but only one.

They always spoke in metaphor, in code, you could tell, even when they didn't.

They always 'had something up their sleeve'.

They predicted their own death.

They did wear rough clothing, and you could say it is sackcloth. But, the sackcloth was really the disguise that they took. The way they obscured their person. Hiding their stature.

They were controversial, and accused of a crime they did not commit, which led to their death.

Their words were fire, and their beauty uncontested. They hid who they were, but they also always said it.

They were seen after their death, and it did scare people. But, many stories are told of them, some truth, some disinformation.

So, this, like much else, is hard to find.

They were charming, and brilliant, capable of of doing anything. And, their beauty is incontestable.

No one else has ever been like them.

Some close to them were convinced they faked their own death. One objected, saying, he could not be here, as everyone would know it. (The irony, if you think on it.)

Whatever the case, they made their getaway.

Leaving behind the fame and riches.

Taking new disguises.

Just as they said they would.

And, their last words? Well. They are going to last.
Thelma and Louise?
 
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