Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

LoveofTruth said:

All OT saints were saved they were called saints and children of God. We read of David saying,

“ Psalm 51 - 10. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.”

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Dorothy Mae said:

Nice!! Closer to the heart of God than many Christians if you ask me.

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Jason0047 said:

Hebrews 6
1 "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ. This is the foundation of accepting Christ. It says we are to go on unto perfection.

It then says, NOT LAYING AGAIN the foundation of repentance.
The foundation of my repentance is Jesus because Christ is my foundation.
Repentance of dead works is not a statement that applies to us but it applies to the Hebrews because they were offering animal sacrifices under the New Covenant. A messianic Jew during that time period who accepted Christ would realize that they were wrong to continue in the Old sacrificial system and they would repent of these dead works. They are NOT LAYING AGAIN their faith towards God by accepting Christ. They are NOT LAYING AGAIN their early teachings on baptisms, the laying on of hands, and other early teachings they would first receive when they came to the faith. They are told: "Let us go on unto perfection." (verse 1). This means to move on from the beginning of where they started with the principle doctrine of Christ. The foundation! The beginning. When you build a house, you first lay a foundation or a concrete slab, etc.

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Jason0047 said:

It's because you have been defending that view that David was not unsaved when he committed his sins of adultery and murder.



God does not have to hit us over the head with bricks to get our attention about a particular truth. We know from the testimony of Scripture that David was not saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder because 1 John 3:15 (also inspired Scripture) says that NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Was David a murderer? Yes, or no? Do you believe 1 John 3:15 when it says NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them? This means ALL murderers - BTW.



God does not say every day to an unbeliever they are not saved to their face so as to get them to repent. Why do you think it would be any less true when a believer sins? God is still merciful by allowing them to live so they can repent or seek forgiveness with the Lord.



I didn't write the Bible. So please do not shoot the messenger. I am just relaying to you what the Bible says plainly. If you disagree, please stick with Scripture instead of ad hominems.

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Jason0047 said:

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:
Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:
The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)


For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

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Dorothy Mae said:

Is there no disagreement? So do English presence continous forms. But if you’re giving a warning, telling believers if they are not repenting there is no forgiveness is not telling them anything they don’t know. No warning is involved.
Then it was useless to say. They already knew that. Warnings are for the future.

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Dorothy Mae said:

It is quite possible to fall away from the real and true faith a man had and JEsus explains how. It is real. It happens. Christians can fall away from the faith and become lost.
Actually Hebrews says that those who fall away from the faith crucify the Lord to themselves again so the writer of the Bible disagrees with you. Don't be fooled by the OSAS semantics in their arguments. One does not become unborn but one becomes dead. One does not re-cruicify CHrist but crucifys him to themselves.
If we quench the Holy Spirit, he is gone. That is the term used, grieve or quench. IF a fire is quenched, it is out, gone. The HOly spirit can certainly leave someone. Did you know that the Bible speaks of God repenting of something he was going to do or was doing? If the writer of the Bible has no trouble saying God repented, why should we? And it is called renewing the spirit.
Since he was never crucified in you in the first place there is no need for a second round. It is called, by the way, forgiveness based on the blood of Christ. But yes, one would have to be forgiven of sin and cleansed. I mean were you only cleansed of your sin once in your lifetime? Haven't you been forgiven and cleansed of sin as often as necessary?
Christ was the one time sacrifice. The blood of lambs etc needed to be sacrified yearly. But Christ only needed to be sacrificed once. Does not mean we are only forgiven once.

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mark kennedy said:

No it's expressly because they have 'falling away', that's a New Testament expression indicating a falling away from the faith. The formal description is justification by grace through faith apart from works. If they return to legalism they lise Christ and can't return because that would be as if they crucified Christ again. Just as Christ's death was once and for all conversion happens once, not every time you sin.

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mark kennedy said:

Bo, this has bothing to do with their repentance at conversion, he moved on from that doctrine in verse 1. They are simple questiins because the are elementary doctrines they should have been teaching by now vut had to be retaught. The problem was they were drifting back into Judaism and the context of the proceding 5 chapters is crystal ckear.

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Jason0047 said:

I am not saying David was forever condemned. I said he was unsaved when he committed his sins of adultery and murder and then when he repented of his sins in Psalms 51, he then became saved again or forgiven. Why else would a saved or forgiven man seek after forgiveness and or desire for salvation back? David lost his salvation temporarily when he was in his sins of adultery and murder. Before his major crimes (his grievous sins) he was also saved.

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Jason0047 said:

Not all sin is the same. Jesus said there is a greater sin (John 19:11). 1 John 5:16-17 says there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death. Jesus said to the Pharisees that they ignored the WEIGHTIER matters of the Law like: Love, justice, faith, and mercy (See Luke 11:42, and Matthew 23:23). Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 that baptism is not for salvation. Yet, it is a command as a part of the great commission (Matthew 28:19). But Paul says that Christ did not send him to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). Psalms 19:12 talks about secret or hidden faults. Matthew 12:31-32 says that speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost can never be forgiven and speaking bad words against the Son (Jesus) can be forgiven. The sin of worshiping the beast in the future is so bad to GOD that their names are not even written in the book of life since the foundation of the world (See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8). Even life teaches us that not all sin is the same. For do you consider the breaking of the Law of going over the speed limit by 5 miles per hour (in driving a motor vehicle) as the same as the crime as murder? Surely not.

So what about James 2:10?

Well, this is the only verse that suggests (at first glance with a quick reading) that all sin is the same, and a reader who does use this verse to support this view has to do at the expense of ignoring so many other verses in the Bible.

James here is not talking about ceremonial laws in the New Covenant like baptism, the Lord's supper, etc. James is talking about the "Royal Law" (i.e. to love your neighbor) (James 2:8).

8 "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law." (James 2:8-11).​

So in verse 10: When James says if you keep the whole Law , he is referring to the whole of the Royal Law (in loving your neighbor) and if you offend in one point in the keeping of this whole law of loving your neighbor, you are guilty of breaking all of God's laws. Verse 11 confirms this by it saying, "Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law." Paul says that loving your neighbor is the equivalent of the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not covet, etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10).

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Jason0047 said:

I am not interested in personal opinions. Please address the verses in what they say. For they answer your question.

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Jason0047 said:

I see the apostasy mentioned in Hebrews 6:4-6 as denying Jesus as your Savior after having had the Holy Spirit. Peter did not have the Holy Spirit yet when he denied Christ. I have encountered one person who said they were not capable of repenting again (after knowing they were saved before). They said they tried many time and could not do it. So we know this is very real.

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Jason0047 said:

Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:16-17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help. In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filthof the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that had not death penalties attached to it. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.​

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

However, the Bible describes those kinds of grievous sins that will cause of a loss of salvation (See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, 1 Corinthians 16:22, 1 John 3:15, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Revelation 21:8).

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Jason0047 said:

Mark has stated to me that he believes Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about an unsaved person to begin with. This does not work because Hebrews 6:1 clearly says NOT LAYING AGAIN the foundation of repentance. The foundation of repentance is Jesus Christ. Jesus is a believer's foundation.



I see the apostasy mentioned in Hebrews 6:4-6 as denying Jesus as your Savior after having had the Holy Spirit. Peter did not have the Holy Spirit yet when he denied Christ. I have encountered one person who said they were not capable of repenting again (after knowing they were saved before). They said they tried many time and could not do it. So we know this is very real.

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Jason0047 said:

I am not saying David was forever condemned. I said he was unsaved when he committed his sins of adultery and murder and then when he repented of his sins in Psalms 51, he then became saved again or forgiven. Why else would a saved or forgiven man seek after forgiveness and or desire for salvation back? David lost his salvation temporarily when he was in his sins of adultery and murder. Before his major crimes (his grievous sins) he was also saved.

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ToBeLoved said:

Salvation doesn’t work like that.

Where in scripture does it say when you sin you loose your salvation and then when you repent you get it again?

God’s Word tells us the Holy Spirit is the seal of the New Covenant. That our spirit testifies with the Holy Spirit that we are saved.

So therefore, the only way to break the New Covenant and our salvation until the Day of Redemption is to loose the Holy Spirit.

So you think each time we sin, God leaves us (although Christ says “I will never leave you or forsake you”) and we loose the Holy Spirit temporarily, then He comes back, goes and comes back, ect?

If the New Covenant seal is broken than Christ would have to be recrucified in us every time we repent and Jesus would have to do another New Covenant over and over and over and over.

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