Is a loveless marriage really a marriage?

ColoRaydo said:

Just so I understand your point, you are saying that the legal decree is what’s sacred rather than the love between spouses? (This is a sincere question not sarcasm)

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Love is a good thing. But I've been told in ancient times parents committed their sons and daughters in marriage previously unknown to each other.

Dave-W said:

Is a sexless marriage really a marriage?

Of course. Why wouldn't it be? Marriage is a covenant.

You know little about Samaritan culture.

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Stick with scripture, it will all work out.

Sabertooth said:

The following verses equate the initial, consensual [Edenic] sex to an act that establishes a marriage covenant. This does not hold true for non-Edenic sex.

Genesis 2:24

"And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death." Genesis 24:67 KJV (Notice no public ceremony or vow.)

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Actually we don't know there was no ceremony.

But it was certainly no secret.

RDKirk said:

Actually we don't know there was no ceremony.

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If there was, it was after they got together (physically).

Dave L said:

Love is a good thing. But I've been told in ancient times parents committed their sons and daughters in marriage previously unknown to each other.

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Happens today--I know a group of them. And it's not a bad thing if the couple have a veto, which was the case in the ones I know.

The families made the arrangements for their (adult) children to meet. In one case, the young guy I knew was given three choices, one in San Diego, one in San Antonio, and one in San Francisco (odd how that turned out--all the "Sans"). He traveled to meet them, and he clicked with the one in San Francisco.

I've known women in the same situation. They traveled to meet the arranged potential mates, sometimes they clicked and got married, sometimes the woman said to her parents, "I didn't like him--find me someone else."

ewq1938 said:

Doesn't sound like a valid marriage at all. Perhaps it never was a true marriage in God's eyes, or it was and things fell apart.

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I agree. I suppose marrying another person for reasons other than genuine love (which may involve deceit on either party) maybe null and void to begin with.

Deceit may include working yourself up to look great, smooth talk, great behavior and personality to attract the attention of the person, but failing or unwilling to continue such effort in the marriage can be considered deceit. Therefore, the marriage is not genuine and couple may separate if they wish without counting as sin.

timewerx said:

I agree. I suppose marrying another person for reasons other than genuine love (which may involve deceit on either party) maybe null and void to begin with.

Deceit may include working yourself up to look great, smooth talk, great behavior and personality to attract the attention of the person, but failing or unwilling to continue such effort in the marriage can be considered deceit. Therefore, the marriage is not genuine and couple may separate if they wish without counting as sin.

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Or two people can agree up front to be life partners and have each other's back in all that they do, and work to grow closer as time passes. An overwhelming hormone-driven emotion is not necessary and, in fact, will rarely last for more than 3-7 years.

When that hormone rush has subsided in a few years, the two people still have to look at each other and agree up front to be life partners and have each other's back in all that they do, and work to grow closer as time passes.

timewerx said:

I agree. I suppose marrying another person for reasons other than genuine love (which may involve deceit on either party) maybe null and void to begin with.

Deceit may include working yourself up to look great, smooth talk, great behavior and personality to attract the attention of the person, but failing or unwilling to continue such effort in the marriage can be considered deceit. Therefore, the marriage is not genuine and couple may separate if they wish without counting as sin.

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That POV contradicts 1 Corinthians 6:16.

fat wee robin said:

Sex is not love , and in Heaven there will be none !

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There will be no marriage covenant. The Marriage is between Christ and His Bride. My wife and I will still love each other in Heaven. Most likely even more then we do here on the Earth.

ColoRaydo said:

EDIT: ** My goodness, people! Read the post before answering!**

There have been a few threads regarding marriage and divorce recently that really got me worked up with the theme of “one and done or you’re going to hell.”

So this got me thinking about a few married couples in loveless/sexless marriages that I know. The older you get, you may know some also.

Two couples that I know sleep in separate bedrooms and take separate vacations. They are nothing but roommates with kids. Another couple has been separated for about 5 years but won’t divorce because “it’s a sin”.

At what point do you believe that a marriage, while still legally valid, is no longer meeting Gods idea of marriage?

I believe that staying in an emotionally or physically abusive marriage or in one devoid of love and respect solely because “God hates divorce” is pure legalism. I think that God hates divorce because of what it does to his people. Aren’t loveless marriages contrary to his desire as well?

**I am not including anyone in a marriage that is physically or psychologically unable to have sex, only those who choose not to be intimate.

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We are all free to think what we want to think but what does God say and approve of? Ephesians 5:19-33
Paul equates Marriage as the representation of Jesus' sacrifice, mercy and grace for sinners. He gave up his life for us. Clearly spouses are to give up their lives too. It does not tell us to be in a loveless marriage it tells us to do everything to love one another as Jesus loves us (and obviously that includes not being abusive to eachother). Basically fight for your marriage. I am not denying that it could be hard especially if only one person seems to make an effort. But the will of God is that both people fight for what they promised to do in the beginning. Now, we fail and God knows that. If both spouses are true believers they would both change their attitudes.
As a child of divorce, I know that if both my parents had fought for each other and not played the blame game that would have made such a better impact on me. I like that my dad's new relationship had taught me great lessons and made me more understanding but this also opened the door to sin in my life: Why wait for marriage? Why even get married? Hating and wishing some people were dead. It is true what the bible says about sin, once you let that door open, sin multiply and impacts absolutely everyone in your life! This is my experience.

ColoRaydo said:

At what point do you believe that a marriage, while still legally valid, is no longer meeting Gods idea of marriage?

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The moment that a marriage ceases to place God at its center and neglects to honor Him in every aspect.

ColoRaydo said:

I believe that staying in an emotionally or physically abusive marriage or in one devoid of love and respect solely because “God hates divorce” is pure legalism. I think that God hates divorce because of what it does to his people. Aren’t loveless marriages contrary to his desire as well?

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God says very clearly through the prophet Malachi why He hates divorce: It is treachery, a betrayal of trust and one's marriage vows. (See Malachi 2:14-16)

I don't think it is God's will for a person to be a punching bag for their spouse. If physical abuse is happening, it's definitely time for the couple to separate. Does God make violence grounds for breaking one's marriage vows? Not as far as I'm aware. I think God would rather a couple - at a distance from one another, if necessary - allow Him to heal them and their marriage through a deeper, holier walk with Himself.

Certainly, loveless marriages were never what God intended by uniting a man and woman together for life as husband and wife. With God, though, nothing is impossible - including healing loveless marriages. Better to endure such a marriage while waiting on God to redeem it than to throw it away and prevent any restoration of the marriage altogether.

At bottom, a good marriage is a holy, Christ-centered marriage. When the marriage stinks, its always because one or both of the married pair have a rotten relationship with God. A rotten relationship with God definitely won't be improved by divorce.

ColoRaydo said:

EDIT: ** My goodness, people! Read the post before answering!**

There have been a few threads regarding marriage and divorce recently that really got me worked up with the theme of “one and done or you’re going to hell.”

So this got me thinking about a few married couples in loveless/sexless marriages that I know. The older you get, you may know some also.

Two couples that I know sleep in separate bedrooms and take separate vacations. They are nothing but roommates with kids. Another couple has been separated for about 5 years but won’t divorce because “it’s a sin”.

At what point do you believe that a marriage, while still legally valid, is no longer meeting Gods idea of marriage?

I believe that staying in an emotionally or physically abusive marriage or in one devoid of love and respect solely because “God hates divorce” is pure legalism. I think that God hates divorce because of what it does to his people. Aren’t loveless marriages contrary to his desire as well?

**I am not including anyone in a marriage that is physically or psychologically unable to have sex, only those who choose not to be intimate.

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It's still marriage, though it's in a bad place and falling short of God's will for marriage. That doesn't mean you discard it, that means you build it up. Furthermore, the bitterness in those relationships is sin as well. Divorce is essentially entertaining that sin and taking it to its logical conclusion.

MyLordYeshuaTheMessiah said:

You have to define what you mean by love in a marriage.
Do you mean some supernatural force that attracts a couple.
Or do you mean actions of love.
If a couple has ceased to find interest in each other. They are still married.
What God has joined, let man not separate.
Your question is, does God want people to be happy and have love. Yes He does.
If a marriage is founded on Jesus, they will have love.
If the marriage was founded on lust or pressure. The marriage will collapse.
All true Christian marriages will last. That's a primary factor to understand.
Whether someone calls them self a Christian and is in a loveless marriage, is another aspect.
Sometimes one person is Christian and the other is an unbeliever. Or one nominal Christian begins to fall away. That brings about a loveless marriage.
Again, a true Christian marriage under God will not fail.
It's the enemy that brings strife and anti-love.
If a couple is sitting dormant in love, it's just another aspect of failing faith. Similar to a Christian married to an unbeliever, or 2 married unbelievers.

So I see little difference between a marriage that has no love, and a marriage of unbelievers. We must love enemies, and if you can't even love your spouse. It's a "you" issue.
God brings peace and love. The enemy brings hate and strife. If your marriage has no love, then you have no foundation on God.
At which point I would argue, you're being too general when you refer to married "Christians".

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***I have told many that in the USA 98% of the marriages were not "made in Heaven" or Holy Spirit urged, but they were done for selfish reasons without being given Biblical facts, Biblical instruction, and Biblical wisdom by a pastor who has a good marriage. No one has disagreed with that. So there are only a small number of eternal marriages. I knew a few but was not blessed for such. I learned God's the essentials and can e-mail that information to you.

Summary
* Eros, which suggests sensual desire and sexual intimacy--
does not appear in the New Testament.
* Philèo, which is used for friendship or love of one’s friends or relatives--
conveys a sense of loving someone because he or she is worthy of love.
* Agapè, which is God’s forever and unselfish love: is the purest, deepest kind of love given by God to His children
when they are right with Him and is expressed not through mere emotions, but as an act of one’s will.

Jesus Christ also commanded us to agapè love our enemies.
True Christians should be going for God's best in relating with all others.
So agapè is for spouses on down to even our enemies.
Think of a 10-1 scale:
10-9 love for enemies (with no praying for bad for them),
8-7 love for acquaintances at public places,
6-4 for best friends and relatives,
3-1 for Christian spouse.
And the 1 level is possible if the married couple heeds to Holy Spirit guidance.
The Holy Spirit is perfect and is saying what He hears (John 16:13) from Jesus Christ
Who had human experience and Who was part of the creation of the human body.
The Holy Spirit is of The One Who created the human body.

Questionnaires and secular advice are not what God desires. Also many ministers and judges just marry couples for the money and praise. Also after the wedding, the marriage counseling and seminars mostly just do secular psychology exhortations and humanistic suggestions instead of Biblical facts, Biblical instruction, and Biblical wisdom. In Nigeria, they take marriage more seriously and it is actually more expensive because of the traditional 5 events starting with the introduction to the parents and the dowry giving. The most meaningful event is when first the husband-to-be has to lay prostrate while saying commitment statements to his wife-to-be and later kneel before her parents while saying commitment statements. And the wedding ceremonies and receptions are much longer than most of those in the USA. And they still train their children to love God, their parents, siblings, elders, and life, and to be polite and compassionate. Most families have wonderful unity. But what has happened to USA which used to have such training after marriage?

ColoRaydo said:

EDIT: ** My goodness, people! Read the post before answering!**

There have been a few threads regarding marriage and divorce recently that really got me worked up with the theme of “one and done or you’re going to hell.”

So this got me thinking about a few married couples in loveless/sexless marriages that I know. The older you get, you may know some also.

Two couples that I know sleep in separate bedrooms and take separate vacations. They are nothing but roommates with kids. Another couple has been separated for about 5 years but won’t divorce because “it’s a sin”.

At what point do you believe that a marriage, while still legally valid, is no longer meeting Gods idea of marriage?

I believe that staying in an emotionally or physically abusive marriage or in one devoid of love and respect solely because “God hates divorce” is pure legalism. I think that God hates divorce because of what it does to his people. Aren’t loveless marriages contrary to his desire as well?

**I am not including anyone in a marriage that is physically or psychologically unable to have sex, only those who choose not to be intimate.

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The idea that marriage is about love is modern and Western. Jesus (who spoke against divorce in general), discussed marriage in a culture where it was an economic arrangement, with women treated basically as property.

ColoRaydo said:

Two couples that I know sleep in separate bedrooms and take separate vacations. They are nothing but roommates with kids.

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unless you're a marriage counsellor and know exactly what goes on day to day in anyone's marriage, don't think one can judge from the outside whether or not the couple still loves each other

there are many reasons a couple may not sleep in the same bed; many people actually sleep much better in their own bed

my husband travels and I took a vacation w/o him when he was out of the country (it was great fun!)

if a couple loved each other enough to get married and choose to honor that commitment through good times and bad, in sickness and health, through financial strains, kid's homework, activities, dr appts, job losses, and everyday ordinary tasks, and they want to get a good night's sleep in their own bed....let them

doesn't mean they don't love each other

is a broken down car really a car?

ColoRaydo said:

EDIT: ** My goodness, people! Read the post before answering!**

There have been a few threads regarding marriage and divorce recently that really got me worked up with the theme of “one and done or you’re going to hell.”

So this got me thinking about a few married couples in loveless/sexless marriages that I know. The older you get, you may know some also.

Two couples that I know sleep in separate bedrooms and take separate vacations. They are nothing but roommates with kids. Another couple has been separated for about 5 years but won’t divorce because “it’s a sin”.

At what point do you believe that a marriage, while still legally valid, is no longer meeting Gods idea of marriage?

I believe that staying in an emotionally or physically abusive marriage or in one devoid of love and respect solely because “God hates divorce” is pure legalism. I think that God hates divorce because of what it does to his people. Aren’t loveless marriages contrary to his desire as well?

**I am not including anyone in a marriage that is physically or psychologically unable to have sex, only those who choose not to be intimate.

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The definition of marriage does not include loving or satisfying or nurturing. A marriage does not become not a marriage by the absence nor these things, not to God and not to the state.

Secondly my parents were in such a union but when we all grew up and left, it got really sweet and warm. People change with time and sometimes change back.

ColoRaydo said:

At what point do you believe that a marriage, while still legally valid, is no longer meeting Gods idea of marriage?

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I'm usually the blacksheep around here when it comes to this. I do not believe in "once and you're done" - mostly because extensive biblical study and challenging my own beliefs in this area has shown me otherwise.

You already acknowledge that a marriage is still legally valid, while it may no longer meet God's idea of marriage. I think to answer this honestly, you have to figure out what God's idea of marriage is. It's late and would require a lot of looking up scripture, but in short, it is the promise of mutual love, mutual respect, mutual submission, mutual service, mutual help, and sharing in carrying each other's burdens. It's about doing life together, and committing to doing all these things. We need to treat our spouse the same as - or preferably better than - we would treat any other brother or sister in Christ.

When it is no longer a marriage is when one or both withdraw this commitment. Commitment is the combination of care and consistency. If you withdraw either, you are left without commitment - that is, the promise that is part of the covenant. We are shown over and over in the Bible that marriage is a bilateral covenant. God made a unilateral covenant to Israel and it turned out badly for him. For Jesus, his covenant is new...it is bilateral, as only those who accept him will be his "bride." Marriage requires two who are equally consistent and caring with each other. Lose that, and the marriage is still "legal" but isn't much of a marriage.

Sex can still be had, though, even if there isn't much of a marriage when still legally married. Sex is a drive, so while it is the seal of the covenant, it is not the marriage itself....though, at my age, I wonder why anyone would want to be with someone who they don't care about, or who they know doesn't care about them. When you're young it's drive... when you're a little older, it is far less important.

In short, I believe a marriage is no longer a marriage in God's eyes, when the couple decides it's time to divorce. But imo, the marriage is not over until the divorce is final. As God gave Israel a certificate of divorce to finalize his divorce to her, so I believe it is necessary to end a marriage in his eyes for people.