Extreme gun control positions

expos4ever · Nov 14, 2018

Sketcher said:
The freedom to keep and bear arms is a "really important freedom."

Why?

Hundreds of millions of people lives in free, prosperous democracies around the world. And most (I will bet) are pretty much opposed to adding this extra freedom you deem so important.

expos4ever · Nov 14, 2018

Radagast said:
Clearly debate with you is pointless. This does not contradict what I said: gun laws and gun ownership have no effect on total homicide rates.

Can you please defend your position with something more than than that one scatter-chart. First, tell us where the chart comes from and, second, explain how it supports your case.

Aryeh Jay · Nov 14, 2018

For me an extreme gun control position is having my bipod braced against a bunch of sand bags and really leaning into the rifle. From a prone position it is really stable.

Goonie · Nov 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
Not according to this (to repeat):

We found no robust, statistically significant correlation between gun ownership and stranger firearm homicide rates. However, we found a positive and significant association between gun ownership and nonstranger firearm homicide rates.

Now then: How do you reconcile your position with this finding? Does it not indeed correlate gun ownership and homicide?

The point they are trying to make is in regard to the overall homicide rate, if people do not have access to guns they use knives etc. In The comparison between states with more controls/less controls does it compare overall homicide rates?

FYI access to guns does makes mass casualty events far more likely.

expos4ever · Nov 14, 2018

Goonie said:
The point they are trying to make is in regard to the overall homicide rate, if people do not have access to guns they use knives etc.

I actually understand this, but I still think there is a problem. If you are interested please read follow on posts.

This “substitution” argument appears a priori implausible because a gun is so much easier to use.

durangodawood · Nov 14, 2018

Just look at hand grenades.

Its been years since we took them off the shelves at Walmart, and the rate of murder by hand grenade has gone down to almost zero.

I for one am not ready to bring them back.

expos4ever · Nov 14, 2018

Radagast said:
Clearly debate with you is pointless. This does not contradict what I said: gun laws and gun ownership have no effect on total homicide rates.

Alright, let’s talk about your chart. If I recall correctly, you argue that there is no correlation in the USA between gun laws and / or ownership and total homocide rates.

Let’s say that this is indeed true. Even then, it is an almost meaningless argument because of the ease of inter-state transport of guns.

If, on the other hand, you could make the case that no such correlation exists across countries, rather than states, your argument would be strengthened.

We all need to acknowledge that there are many confounding variables - it is hard to determine the effectiveness of gun laws.

expos4ever · Nov 14, 2018

Radagast said:
Clearly debate with you is pointless. This does not contradict what I said: gun laws and gun ownership have no effect on total homicide rates.

Now let’s talk about substitution- you argue that if denied a gun people will find other means to kill.

I can think of at least three problems:

1. The substitution argument defies common sense - you have to work a lot harder to kill with a knife than with a gun. Note that I am only pointing out that there is a common sense reason to be skeptical of your claim at the start. But the data - not common sense - is what really matters;

2. On the matter of the data, there is at least one credible study that shows the substitution argument does not work in the case of suicide (granted, suicide is not homocide).

3. Let’s say that gun laws do not correlate with overall homocide rates. That fact would not justify the substitution argument since other variables could be at play. It is possible that the gun laws do indeed “work” even if there is no correlation between them and overall homocide rates.

At the end of the day, I think we all need to agree that is difficult to determine the effectiveness of gun laws.

Aryeh Jay · Nov 14, 2018

To listen to some people, you would think that Human on Human violence only started fairly recently, with the invention of firearms. Humans are one of the few creatures that actively seek out to commit acts of violence against others of its kind. Add that to an analytical brain and you can figure out that a wooden club is more efficient than your hands and teeth. They figured out a sharp long stick puts you in a safer position farther from the club. Put a sharp rock on that stick and you are more effective. Spear throwers increase range and bows are less complicated. Bronze and iron replaces stone points and eventually cavalry, chariots, tanks, aircraft, and split atoms.

Disarming people does little to curb this trend in mankind. A case in point is prison; probably the most “disarmed” place on the planet and they still have violent murders even in countries where the general population has little to no access to dangerous firearms.

Perhaps there is an underlying issue involved that is not the bang stick but the people behind it. It is an issue that is not being addressed by either side.

TheBear · Nov 14, 2018

Sparagmos said:
How does gun control in a place where people can easily get them a few miles away make for a good comparison?

How does that work, exactly? Illinois has very strict gun control laws.

TheBear · Nov 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
When your desire to play with guns means more of them will get transported illegally to Canada, it becomes very much my business.

So, Canada already has gun laws making it illegal to bring in guns from across the border.

expos4ever · Nov 14, 2018

Aryeh Jay said:
Disarming people does little to curb this trend in mankind.

Not sure what your point is. Surely you are not suggesting that weaponry does not significantly amplify our ability to wreak death and destruction on others.

Aryeh Jay · Nov 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
Not sure what your point is. Surely you are not suggesting that weaponry does not significantly amplify our ability to wreak death and destruction on others.

Sure, weaponry makes us much more efficient killers. BUT it is not the weaponry that makes us the killers.

expos4ever · Nov 14, 2018

Aryeh Jay said:
Sure, weaponry makes us much more efficient killers. BUT it is not the weaponry that makes us the killers.

Maybe but this sounds a lot like the clearly specious “the gun is only a tool so controlling them cannot be part of tge solution” argument.

To the extent that weapons make it easier for us to kill, they are definitely part of the problem.

Aryeh Jay · Nov 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
Maybe but this sounds a lot like the clearly specious “the gun is only a tool so controlling them cannot be part of tge solution” argument.

To the extent that weapons make it easier for us to kill, they are definitely part of the problem.

I agree, let’s outlaw guns and watch the killings really go up. Let’s ignore mental health all together because guns are clearly the only problem. Let’s ignore all the violent media thrown at us 24-7 because guns are clearly the only problem. Let’s ignore that the government takes kids right out of high school and trains them how to kill and when they get broken after 17 years of constant war, just throw them back into society and grab some more kids to train because guns are clearly the only problem.

expos4ever · Nov 14, 2018

Aryeh Jay said:
I agree, let’s outlaw guns and watch the killings really go up. Let’s ignore mental health all together because guns are clearly the only problem.

Textbook strawman.

super animator · Nov 14, 2018

Tanj said:
That's not true on so many levels its hard to know where to begin.

1. Machine guns are restricted to the military and are classified in the same group as RPGs and flame throwers.
2. Australia has crocodiles, not alligators
3. Croc hunting is regulated, and in fact in the place most of them live, the Northern Territory, they are a protected species.

Huh, must have confused with Florida with Australasia

Sketcher · Nov 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
Why?

Hundreds of millions of people lives in free, prosperous democracies around the world. And most (I will bet) are pretty much opposed to adding this extra freedom you deem so important.

Their loss. As to why it is important, the Second Amendment's text is self-explanatory.

Aryeh Jay · Nov 14, 2018

expos4ever said:
Textbook strawman.

Here is another strawman…

When there is a person who openly declares himself a Nationalist, when there is a person that is openly supported by Neo-Nazi’s, when there is a person who encourages violence at his political rallies, when there is a person who only weakly condemns violence from Neo-Nazi’s days after the fact and only because of the flack for not doing so earlier, when there is a person who uses words like “fake news” and Lügenpresse, when there is a person that openly calls the media the “enemy of the people” , when there is a person who creates an immigration policy within days of taking office that looks like it came from 1933, when there is a person who that looks up to authoritarian regimes and alienates out real allies, when there is a person who says America should try having a Leader for life like China, when there is a person who makes a founding member of Breitbart News, Steve Bannon the White House Chief Strategist, when thousands can parade with torches chatting “The Jews will not replace us!”, when you have a White House Press Secretary that said Adolf Hitler did not use chemical weapons, when you have a White House that issued a Holocaust Remembrance Day statement that does not mention Jews or Anti-Semitism at all, when a person goes into a Synagogue and kills 11 in the deadliest attack on the Jewish community in the United States, and when you see no sigh what so ever of this trend ending, my family and I will be keeping our guns.

Sparagmos · Nov 14, 2018

TheBear said:
How does that work, exactly? Illinois has very strict gun control laws.

Gun Laws Stop At State Lines, But Guns Don’t

Extreme gun control positions

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