James: "The Effectual, Fervent Prayer of the Righteous Man..."

2PhiloVoid said:

I have no idea about the amount of integrity that you may or may not actually have, morally speaking. What I do know is that you obfuscate and respond to my attempts to explain and to justify what happened to the literary [fictional? or historical?] figures in the Bible known as the Canaanites, and when I do so, or when others do so, you react as if someone just shot your little puppy! Well, no one has actually shot your little puppy, Par5, and as far as I know, no one will be doing so!

So, grow some philosophical backbone and learn how to handle and discuss hard topics rather than hand-wave everything away! I mean, by not actually offering justification for your own point of view, you're not actually helping to make this a better world ................................................... because you give the rest of us nothing to learn from. No, you just give us a vignette that tells the rest of us nothing more than that you think, "Here I sit! I dare you to move me!"

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Look, you can present your usual pompous air of superiority to me as much as you wish. You can brag about your academic achievements. You can shout context and hermeneutics until you are blue in the face, but all those things will not change anything I have said.
At the end of the day, the reason you hold the view that you do comes down to one thing, "god did it, and if god did it, then it must be good."
You get your context from a book that is full of the supernatural and belief in a god that is central to those things supernatural. Considering the sources you use to justify what to me is barbarity, it is hardly surprising that I as an atheist do not agree with your justification of such a thing, not that it would matter what you used to try and justify it, I would still not accept it.
I'm sorry you don't think I am helping to make the world a better place. Excuse me for living. Your head must get light sitting astride that high horse of yours.
BTW, I'm glad no one is going to shoot my puppy dog, not that it matters as I don't have a puppy dog, but my neighbour has a dog that barks a lot, especially at night, so feel free.

Oncedeceived said:

It is related. Do you think there is evil in the world?

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You didn't answer the question. you just asked another question? So, do you think the killing of Canaanite women and children was justified?

Nihilist Virus said:

I think you're just inventing that to try to win this discussion. I've never heard of this being a salvation issue, and I seriously doubt you have either.

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Are you saying that it should be 'ok' if I were to think that Jesus was actually North Korean, or an Anglo-Saxon Aryan? Somehow, I don't think it's ok.

If I remember my Bible lessons correctly, it's probably safe to say that I'm not inventing anything if I'm going with what Paul said. Y'know! He had all that talk about having faith "according to the Scriptures," whatever that's.........supposed to mean, hermeneutically speaking. Remember, NV, context really is king, even if it seems that we're dealing with a minimal or non-comprehensive context.

So, yeah. I do think I've won. The Nazis suck. They're losers. They're still losers. And they're going to hell and the grave if they don't repent! Of course, it's a little late now for Hitler and his crew...

I guess their so-called "Positive Christianity" wasn't so positive after all. In fact, if anything was made-up, it was their twisting of the Christian faith; and I think it's also safe to say that they did quite a bit more than just some "cultural appropriation."

Par5 said:

You didn't answer the question. you just asked another question? So, do you think the killing of Canaanite women and children was justified?

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I'm not going to speak for @Oncedeceived, but since you seem to have asked of me a similar question earlier, I'll just respond by saying: Yes, I certainly do! But would the same sort of action be justified with any other population, whether now or since then? Well, that would depend upon the moral and biblical context since---since as I've said before---context is King!

And basically, what this means is that if you're going to criticize the Bible, you do need to do more than just open your mouth with Communistic and bombastic aplomb, such as you do here.

Steve Petersen said:

Ah yes. The old No True Scotsman ploy. Of course, I knew it was coming, you know.

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Huh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

I will think on this.

Par5 said:

Look, you can present your usual pompous air of superiority to me as much as you wish.

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Pompous? Why thank you! Although, I'm pretty sure that you and I are really on the same boat in life. The difference between you and I is that I found a stash ...

You can brag about your academic achievements.

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So, you'd rather have me lie about not achieving two degrees, both of which are germane to the argumentation that you and I are having at this very moment? Wow! I've never really seen anyone be a proponent of false humility, but this takes the cake! (Here, I didn't know what kind of cake to get you, so I got an assortment: )

You can shout context and hermeneutics until you are blue in the face, but all those things will not change anything I have said.

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Sure, my barrage of assertions about the importance of context in understanding the Bible won't change anything you've said, but that would basically be because you haven't really said much of anything ....................................................

At the end of the day, the reason you hold the view that you do comes down to one thing, "god did it, and if god did it, then it must be good."

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So, you get to speak 'for me'? Really? ... should I take back my earlier comment about how I wasn't evaluating your level of integrity?

You get your context from a book that is full of the supernatural and belief in a god that is central to those things supernatural. Considering the sources you use to justify what to me is barbarity, it is hardly surprising that I as an atheist do not agree with your justification of such a thing, not that it would matter what you used to try and justify it, I would still not accept it.

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And what sources do I get my context from, Par5, being that my sources are biblical AND extra-biblical; both! Again, I don't think you yet understand my position here.

I'm sorry you don't think I am helping to make the world a better place. Excuse me for living. Your head must get light sitting astride that high horse of yours.

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... well, the air is rather thin up here.

BTW, I'm glad no one is going to shoot my puppy dog, not that it matters as I don't have a puppy dog, but my neighbour has a dog that barks a lot, especially at night, so feel free.

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... someone, get this man a puppy!

2PhiloVoid said:

I'm not going to speak for @Oncedeceived, but since you seem to have asked of me a similar question earlier, I'll just respond by saying: Yes, I certainly do! But would the same sort of action be justified with any other population, whether now or since then? Well, that would depend upon the moral and biblical context since---since as I've said before---context is King!

And basically, what this means is that if you're going to criticize the Bible, you do need to do more than just open your mouth with Communistic and bombastic aplomb, such as you do here.

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My goodness, now I'm a communist? There was no need for you to chime in with your two cents worth, I already know you approve of child murder, and If you don't like my criticism of barbaric acts recorded in the bible, then all I can say is, too bad, dry your eyes. I certainly don't need any lessons in morality from someone who condones the murder of children. That's a pretty sick belief system you have there!

Steve Petersen said:

availeth little.

Ask the six million Jews who were snuffed out by the Nazis.

What? Did God suddenly change his mind about prayer? Maybe he isn't as involved in the affairs of the world as some people think.

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Why don't we actually ask the Jews?

they say that their righteous Rabbis like Honi, The Rainmaker. Were able to pray to God and cause rain

today, The Jews have their own nation, again, the answer to 2000 years of their prayers.

2 Peter 3:8-9

Par5 said:

My goodness, now I'm a communist? There was no need for you to chime in with your two cents worth, I already know you approve of child murder, and If you don't like my criticism of barbaric acts recorded in the bible, then all I can say is, too bad, dry your eyes. I certainly don't need any lessons in morality from someone who condones the murder of children. That's a pretty sick belief system you have there!

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I don't know what your actual political leaning is, but it sounds rather communistic in nature. Or, would you like to set the record straight for the rest of us here?

So, you say I "approve of child murder," ay? Is this a statement of a comprehensive nature which you're applying to me, or should I think that there may be a context or two implied in your statement which makes it specific rather than universal? What I mean is this: your statement seems somewhat vague and hazy about whether or not you think I would actually approve of "murdering" children, just any children......even today! So, to make and maintain this allegation against me in the way that you do, you HAVE to justify it! You don't just get to "hit-and-run, slap-and-dash," when asserting that I'm guilty of turpitude.

And since we're at it, would it be safe for me to assume that you're not pro-choice? I have to ask, because the value of a human being is at stake here and the contexts of your statements seem to connote that you're pro-life.

Steve Petersen said:

Ponder the fact that most Germans considered themselves Christians during WWII; whether they lived up to the ideal is irrelevant. Who ever lives up to the ideal?

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No, it's not your call to say that it's "irrelevant" if Jesus and the Apostles said that IT IS relevant, Steve. And who lives up to the ideal? Well, to answer this would require that you and I actually spot what this 'ideal' is, otherwise you're just spouting ethereal chutzpah which more or less obfuscates the real issues here.

Steve Petersen said:

Ponder the fact that most Germans considered themselves Christians during WWII; whether they lived up to the ideal is irrelevant. Who ever lives up to the ideal?

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It looks like religion was a somewhat complicated matter that evolved over time during WWII. I haven't read all of this but it was interesting.
Religion in Nazi Germany - Wikipedia

I'm not sure that what I consider myself to be is all that relevant to what I actually am... if I consider myself to be a good man, am I? If I consider myself to be above average, am I? It's not for me to judge.

If I get to the end of my life, having considered myself a Christian or not, and Christ says to me "Depart from me, I never knew ye," was I a Christian?

Regarding the degree to which they lived up to the ideal or not, I think it was extremely relevant to everyone they encountered! As it is to those that I encounter.

Christ says this in Luke 11:11-13

“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

He knows, we are prone to evil. He knows that there is no difference between the stuff a soul of a Nazi is made of and the stuff that our own souls are. That's why he said to pray for a holy spirit. So the Nazi's may have considered themselves Christians, and the Nazi's may have had belt buckles that said "Gott mit uns"... but I don't think they were praying that prayer. I think that that prayer is an effective prayer, that will availeth much for the person praying it. If they are like me, they may need to do it on a daily basis.

But anyway, it seems that Christ is the final judge of who is a True Scottsman and who isn't.

He said so himself.

2PhiloVoid said:

I don't know what your actual political leaning is, but it sounds rather communistic in nature. Or, would you like to set the record straight for the rest of us here?

So, you say I "approve of child murder," ay? Is this a statement of a comprehensive nature which you're applying to me, or should I think that there may be a context or two implied in your statement which makes it specific rather than universal? What I mean is this: your statement seems somewhat vague and hazy about whether or not you think I would actually approve of "murdering" children, just any children......even today! So, to make and maintain this allegation against me in the way that you do, you HAVE to justify it! You don't just get to "hit-and-run, slap-and-dash," when asserting that I'm guilty of turpitude.

And since we're at it, would it be safe for me to assume that you're not pro-choice? I have to ask, because the value of a human being is at stake here and the contexts of your statements seem to connote that you're pro-life.

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You know rightly that I am referring to the slaughter of the Canaanite children and in answer to the question if you think such a thing was justified you said, "Yes I certainly do." I think that most people would take that to mean that such an act was acceptable to you, and you can assume whatever you like about me. You have been doing a lot of assuming about me lately so keep on assuming and anyway your assumptions about me matter not one jot because as I said to you before, I have no need for lessons in morality from someone who condones the murder of children, even if it did supposedly occur a few thousands of years ago.

Par5 said:

You know rightly that I am referring to the slaughter of the Canaanite children and in answer to the question if you think such a thing was justified you said, "Yes I certainly do." I think that most people would take that to mean that such an act was acceptable to you, and you can assume whatever you like about me. You have been doing a lot of assuming about me lately so keep on assuming and anyway your assumptions about me matter not one jot because as I said to you before, I have no need for lessons in morality from someone who condones the murder of children, even if it did supposedly occur a few thousands of years ago.

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More "non-answers" on your part. This is strange to see because you're in a Christian Apologetics forum that has certain rules, but you utterly refuse to offer the kind of reasoning that is requested in this forum's guidelines/rules. How interesting.

If anything, I think we've at least established one thing: you only follow rules if you think it's expedient to your own agenda. Or do you think I'm being uncharitable in saying this?

2PhiloVoid said:

More "non-answers" on your part. This is strange to see because you're in a Christian Apologetics forum that has certain rules, but you utterly refuse to offer the kind of reasoning that is requested in this forum's guidelines/rules. How interesting.

If anything, I think we've at least established one thing: you only follow rules if you think it's expedient to your own agenda. Or do you think I'm being uncharitable in saying this?

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What part of "deliberately targeting women and children for extermination is wrong" are you having difficulty with? Why would you need convincing that it is wrong? Why would you expect me to provide reasons as to why I think it is wrong when despite your view to the contrary it is self-evidently wrong?
You think it is justified. If it is King Context that leads you to that conclusion then I suggest you dethrone that particular monarch and install one with a bit of humanity.

2PhiloVoid said:

Are you saying that it should be 'ok' if I were to think that Jesus was actually North Korean, or an Anglo-Saxon Aryan? Somehow, I don't think it's ok.

If I remember my Bible lessons correctly, it's probably safe to say that I'm not inventing anything if I'm going with what Paul said. Y'know! He had all that talk about having faith "according to the Scriptures," whatever that's.........supposed to mean, hermeneutically speaking. Remember, NV, context really is king, even if it seems that we're dealing with a minimal or non-comprehensive context.

So, yeah. I do think I've won. The Nazis suck. They're losers. They're still losers. And they're going to hell and the grave if they don't repent! Of course, it's a little late now for Hitler and his crew...

I guess their so-called "Positive Christianity" wasn't so positive after all. In fact, if anything was made-up, it was their twisting of the Christian faith; and I think it's also safe to say that they did quite a bit more than just some "cultural appropriation."

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No one thinks the race of Jesus is a salvation issue. It's just you. More people think that evolution and deep time are salvation issues. Oh, did that make you chuckle just now? Grasp that chuckle. Consider it. It's exactly what your statements here elicit from me.

Par5 said:

What part of "deliberately targeting women and children for extermination is wrong" are you having difficulty with? Why would you need convincing that it is wrong?

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...I'm having a difficulty with the part that where (again, contextually speaking as well as existentially speaking) that God shows up and commands what He commands for very specific reasons. Oh, did I say that He did so for very specific reason that provide context to the situations we find in the Old Testament? Yes, for specific reasons that you've failed to grasp, obviously!

Why would you expect me to provide reasons as to why I think it is wrong when despite your view to the contrary it is self-evidently wrong?

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...you haven't established your own point of view by which to criticize mine, and you do have to go *** beyond *** just the mere pretense of being able to provide supposed self-evidence as you claim. No one, not even you, gets a free lunch on this; you're axioms aren't assumed.

You think it is justified. If it is King Context that leads you to that conclusion then I suggest you dethrone that particular monarch and install one with a bit of humanity.

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Yes, corrupt and evil cultures deserve to be destroyed if God so decrees it...and sometimes in the Bible, that meant that reprobate cultures had to go, in full, or nearly so.

Or, are you one of those who would rather protect the cultures and sub-cultures, or even lives, of unrepentant, reprobate inappropriate contentographers, pimps, drug lords, sex traffickers, and or even genocidal, nazi type warlords?

Nihilist Virus said:

No one thinks the race of Jesus is a salvation issue.

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Really? No Christians think that we only receive salvation by appropriately responding to God within the context of His revelation about Jesus that is found in Scripture? That's a new one to me!

It's just you.

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It's just me? Really? Well, let's test that theory shall we?

HERE YE, HERE YE! ALL YOU CHRISTIANS WHO DON'T THINK THAT WE NEED TO FIND OUR SALVATION IN CHRIST PER THE CONTEXTS GIVEN IN SCRIPTURE, and who don't think we need to know that Jesus was Jewish......................PLEASE SHOW UP AND SOUND OFF and put me in my place with a word of correction!

(Or, if you think that Jesus' being Jewish is a central idea of our faith, please leave a little green checkmark on this post...Thank you!)

More people think that evolution and deep time are salvation issues. Oh, did that make you chuckle just now? Grasp that chuckle. Consider it. It's exactly what your statements here elicit from me.

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... oh yes! It's always good to have a laugh together now and then, isn't it NV, especially when we both realize that an important survey is being taken which isn't following a scientifically sound protocol in any way, shape, or form?

Umm...

2PhiloVoid said:

we only receive salvation by appropriately responding to God within the context of His revelation about Jesus that is found in Scripture

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Careful there.

Christ exists apart from Scripture. Nihilist Virus over there could take and burn every copy of the Bible on the planet. Is that Game Over for God? No, I think He would still be capable of making revelation apart from it. All through Acts, there are Apostles preaching and people responding. There is no scripture - it's a direct spiritual encounter. Scripture is usually the vehicle for the beginnings of that encounter in Protestant denominations. It illuminates the need for that encounter and describes a direct encounter and intervention.

That being said, Jesus was Jewish. Anybody trying to tell someone that he was Aryan or something other than Jewish is probably trying to sell you something that isn't Jesus. So while it might not be a salvation issue at the beginning, it probably will be by the end.

Steve Petersen said:

Yes, because we grew up.

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A better question might be

Where was humanity during the Holocaust?

MARK 15:30
Those who passed by heaped abuse on Him, shaking their heads and saying, “Aha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, 30come down from the cross and save Yourself!” 31In the same way, the chief priests and scribes mocked Him among themselves, saying, “He who saved others cannot even save Himself!…

Have we really grown up Steve? Do you think we are out of the primeval swamp?
How long ago was it?

The bible says it's going to get much worse....