Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,685
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The tribulation ends...........the world says peace and safety...........and then sudden destruction comes. They are cast into the wrath of God

MYTH! TOTALLY
out of John's correct order! How could ANYONE get this so mixed up? the "trib:" has not yet begun at the 6th seal. In fact, the days of GT will not begin until late in chapter 14 or between 14 and 15. The beheaded (part of "the trib) do not begin to show up in heaven until chapter 15. Then God pours out the vials to SHORTEN those days of "the trib." Yet you insist the events of chapters 8 through 16 will happen before the 6th seal.
I am not saying CW is right in his assessment in the violet text. But everything revealed in Revelation has to be put on the 7 year timeline - in the proper order of when the events takes place.

The chapters are not intended to be a timeline in and of themselves. The chapters do show the order which John was revealed visions and told about of what is to take place at the time of the end.

And it is not just in Revelation that the events of the end times must be placed on a timeline. There are end times events described all through the bible.

Here is the basic timeline. The events have to be properly placed on this timeline.

7 years begin day 1....................................day 2520 Jesus Returns.

The 7 years are the last 7 years of Daniel 9's 70 weeks.

Where you are going wrong, lamad, is that you are beginning your timeline back at the time of Jesus, spanning 2000 years plus until his Return. And using the chapters as blocks on the timeline.

Your timeline looks like this....

Chapter 6...Chapter 7...Chapter 8...Chapter 9...Chapter 10...Chapter 11...Chapter 12...Chapter 13...Chapter14...
Chapter 15...Chapter 16...Chapter 17...Chapter 18...Chapter 19.

The flaw with that approach is those are chapters - not events. When a person examines the events revealed in each of the chapters - it should be very very obvious that the chapters are not intended to be blocks on a timeline.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,685
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Day of the Lord begins on an unknown day within the 7 years, with the transgression of desolation........then shortly thereafter, the great tribulation begins on day 1185 of the seven years with the abomination of desolation ...........

then the great tribulation ends with Jesus's return.......

and the Day of the Lord continues into the millennium rule......

and then the final rebellion.......

then the present heaven and earth consumed in fire......

then the Great White Throne judgment.....

and the Day of the Lord continues into and for eternity, with a new heaven and new earth, and new Jerusalem.
____________________________________________________________

All on the Day of the Lord. There are different segments of it - which people tend to focus on just one particular segment to argue their view of what is the Day of the Lord.
 
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Make no mistake here: when our Father God begins His wrath, the SON begins wrath. After all, they are ONE.
Why are you telling me that. Dougg is the one that wants to separate the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God.

MYTH! TOTALLY
out of John's correct order! How could ANYONE get this so mixed up?
I think it's a total myth that I am confused. I realize that there are lots of people that believe like you...and I was one of them until I realized.........Why not let Jesus and John stand in agreement with end times. Why force them to disagree simply because our timeline won't work. Let Jesus and John agree about endtimes and figure out what in the timeline needs to change.
the "trib:" has not yet begun at the 6th seal.
Let Jesus and John agree.........Immediately AFTER the the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened...................... The tribulation is over at the sixth seal.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,685
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Why are you telling me that. Dougg is the one that wants to separate the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Who is distinguished as the Lamb?
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
No, the saying peace and safety is at the start of the 7 years. And them thinking that will not escape the beginning years of the Day of Lord, which contain the great tribulation, preceding Jesus's return.

The vials of God's wrath in Revelation 16 is during the great tribulation, close to the end. In the text, they precede Armageddon in Revelation 16:16.

After the kings of the earth have gathered their armies to make war on Jesus, the 7th vial of God's wrath is poured out, right before Jesus descends to the earth in Revelation 19:19.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
_____________________________________________

The great city Babylon, is talking about the earth ruled by Satan and his angels, which has trafficked in violence and evil.
This is TRUTH: But I doubt if Choose Wisely will recognize it.

However, it may be 30 days after the 7th vial before Christ descends. The wedding will take place after the 7th vial and before Christ comes.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Why are you telling me that. Dougg is the one that wants to separate the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God.


I think it's a total myth that I am confused. I realize that there are lots of people that believe like you...and I was one of them until I realized.........Why not let Jesus and John stand in agreement with end times. Why force them to disagree simply because our timeline won't work. Let Jesus and John agree about endtimes and figure out what in the timeline needs to change.

Let Jesus and John agree.........Immediately AFTER the the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened...................... The tribulation is over at the sixth seal.
Jesus and John ARE in agreement - without having to rewrite Revelation to fit a warped theory.

The truth is, the signs in the sun and moon will be seen TWICE: first with a blood moon as the sign of the start of the DAY, and then again years later, with both the sun and moon darkened - as in total darkness - as the sign of His coming.

Yes, "immediately after the trib..." both the sun and moon are dark - as well as all the stars - meaning, NO LIGHT - meaning total darkness. This will happen. But 7 years previous to this the moon will appear as blood red - as the sign for the start of the DAY.

You don't believe this but it is absolute truth: ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation will be proven wrong. Why is this? Because Revelation is in GOD's order, and God knows the future.

In other words, something in chapter 16 could NEVER happen before something in ANY previous chapter. In other words, "the trib" or the 70th week ends in chapter 16, not before the 6th seal.
 
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
You are the one that requires major rearranging to Revelation to fit a theory.
What rearranging? The tribulation ends...Jesus comes...the wrath begins......the wrath ends. Then we go back to the tribulation....wrath begins.....jesus comes......the wrath ends. I have rearranged nothing. I merely end wrath where it says it ends and begin the cycle where it begins again. No magic, no rearranging just doing exactly what it says.
 
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
This is TRUTH: But I doubt if Choose Wisely will recognize it.

However, it may be 30 days after the 7th vial before Christ descends. The wedding will take place after the 7th vial and before Christ comes.

Instead of guessing that it may be 30 days after the 7th vial why not see what the scripture says. If we are able to follow what the scripture says we see in Rev 19 the marriage supper happens before the armies of heaven descend. We also see that at the 7th vial.........it is done. So if you follow along with scripture you can see that the marriage supper occurs during the wrath of God.........not after like you claim with your guess.


Rev 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.



 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
You don't believe this but it is absolute truth: ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation will be proven wrong. Why is this? Because Revelation is in GOD's order, and God knows the future.
I have yet to see you prove anything. It all seems like a bunch of guesses that have no scriptural support. You are guessing there is a coming of Jesus at the end of the 5th seal. Now you are guessing that the wedding supper is after the 7th vial when scripture proves different. Got any more guesses?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
What rearranging? The tribulation ends...Jesus comes...the wrath begins......the wrath ends. Then we go back to the tribulation....wrath begins.....jesus comes......the wrath ends. I have rearranged nothing. I merely end wrath where it says it ends and begin the cycle where it begins again. No magic, no rearranging just doing exactly what it says.
The truth is, there are earthquakes, pestilences, wars, rumors of wars, famines, as the Red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider try to stop the advance of the gospel - and the church age continues- up to today and on into the future. But SUDDENLY He will come (when people are thinking peace and safety) and the dead in Christ will rise, then two groups of people will get two different results:

Those living in the light of the gospel will be raptured.
Those living in darkness will be left behind to suffer the sudden destruction - the earthquake at the 6th seal. God's wrath begins. the 7th seal opens the 70th week or "the trib." The trumpet judgments come - in the first 1260 days. Then the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint as the man of sin commits the abomination and the daily sacrifices cease.

Then, at the midpoint, as Jesus said, will come days of Great Tribulation. This is now the last 1260 days, while those in Judea are fleeing and while the two witnesses are testifying - DURING "the trib." Then the false Prophet shows up, the image is created, and the mark. Now the days of GT will be much worse. It is not just "tribulation" - it is GREAT tribulation.

After an unknown time, God in His wrath will pour out the vials of his wrath, to SHORTEN the days that GT would take place.

Then darkness comes to the earth. The 7th vial signals the end of the week or the end of the trib - in chapter 16, NOT in chapter 6. Finally, after the marriage and supper are finished in heaven, Jesus returns to earth to the battle of Armageddon.

The truth then is that WRATH COMES, and wrath stays, until God is finished with judgment.

It is your imagination that wrath starts - then ends - then starts again. It is your imagination that the "tribulation" is over at the 6th seal. The truth is, it has not yet begun. You are rearranging. Your theories will be proven wrong.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
I have yet to see you prove anything. It all seems like a bunch of guesses that have no scriptural support. You are guessing there is a coming of Jesus at the end of the 5th seal. Now you are guessing that the wedding supper is after the 7th vial when scripture proves different. Got any more guesses?
I am not guessing, I am understanding. The church age martyrs at the 5th seal wonder when the time of grace will end and God will bring judgment. They are told they must wait for the full number of martyrs. That is just saying they must wait for the rapture of the church to end the church age - just in different words. I understand this. The very NEXT event in John's chronology will be the rapture - but John did not see it so did not write it. Studying 1 Thes. 5 Paul's rapture can fit no other place in Revelation. It is not guessing - it is understanding.

Not to worry! You can believe your wild theories, but when the rapture takes place, and then the 6th seal wrath begins, you will know. I don't guess at the wedding either. I understand: the 7th vial ends the week, but the events of chapters 17 and 18 must take place before we get to chapter 19. Then the marriage and supper must take before Christ returns to earth.

You can rearrange to fit all your theories, but when these things begin to take place, they are going to take place in the exact order John wrote them.

I know the place John put the marriage don't fit with posttribber's theories, so to get around that, they imagine the marriage will take place AFTER He comes - in spite of John's placement. They don't understand, the marriage must wait for the Old Testament saints to raise from the dead. Their resurrection is at the 7th vial on the "last day" of the 70th week.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Instead of guessing that it may be 30 days after the 7th vial why not see what the scripture says. If we are able to follow what the scripture says we see in Rev 19 the marriage supper happens before the armies of heaven descend. We also see that at the 7th vial.........it is done. So if you follow along with scripture you can see that the marriage supper occurs during the wrath of God.........not after like you claim with your guess.


Rev 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Your imagination is running wild again! WHAT "is done" at the 7th vial? OF course the 70th week is "done" or finished. The 7th vial will be poured out on the 1260th day after the 7th trumpet sounds.

Jesus does NOT return at the 7th vial that ends the week. He does NOT return on the 1260th day. Daniel tells us that is another historic event on the 1290th day after the midpoint. I GUESS (because neither John nor Daniel tells us) that Jesus COULD or MIGHT come on the 1290th day.
In other words, the events of chapters 17 and 18 and the marriage and supper just might take 30 days.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,685
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Who is distinguished as God?

Everyone here knows that the Trinity are God.

Look at the text, CW. It says wrath of the Lamb.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Who is distinguished as the Lamb? Who is the Son?


Revelation 6:
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
 
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Everyone here knows that the Trinity are God.

Look at the text, CW. It says wrath of the Lamb.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Who is distinguished as the Lamb? Who is the Son?

OK if you can't see things from the front end.........let's check the back end. Who is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. I would say that is the Son. The wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God are the same thing though I hear many claim differently. They are wrong.........as the scripture proves.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I am not guessing, I am understanding. The church age martyrs at the 5th seal wonder when the time of grace will end and God will bring judgment. They are told they must wait for the full number of martyrs. That is just saying they must wait for the rapture of the church to end the church age - just in different words. I understand this. The very NEXT event in John's chronology will be the rapture - but John did not see it so did not write it. Studying 1 Thes. 5 Paul's rapture can fit no other place in Revelation. It is not guessing - it is understanding.

Not to worry! You can believe your wild theories, but when the rapture takes place, and then the 6th seal wrath begins, you will know. I don't guess at the wedding either. I understand: the 7th vial ends the week, but the events of chapters 17 and 18 must take place before we get to chapter 19. Then the marriage and supper must take before Christ returns to earth.

You can rearrange to fit all your theories, but when these things begin to take place, they are going to take place in the exact order John wrote them.

I know the place John put the marriage don't fit with posttribber's theories, so to get around that, they imagine the marriage will take place AFTER He comes - in spite of John's placement. They don't understand, the marriage must wait for the Old Testament saints to raise from the dead. Their resurrection is at the 7th vial on the "last day" of the 70th week.
I just used scripture to show you where the marriage supper occurs before Jesus rides on a white horse..........which happens at the 7th vial. If you can't pick up on the obvious, maybe your should try Bingo or bridge......cause I am showing indisputable facts.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
The rapture is in Rev. 14, when the earth is reaped.
He is wearing -one crown.

Armageddon - He is wearing many crowns, and no one gets raptured.
WRONG! That reaping is for the reaping of the tribulation saints and for the sinners who refuse to worship God and take the mark. The rapture of the church will come just before the 6th seal in chapter 6 - and the church is then seen in heaven in chapter 7.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
The 144,000 are not Christians, and not raptured. They will get redeemed among men and learn a song that comes down out of heaven to them on the earth -where other men are that are not redeemed.

They are the remnant that will restart Israel back in her land after Armageddon.
Read it again: they are IN HEAVEN. They did not die to get there. That leaves only one other way: they are raptured.
 
Upvote 0