The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

FineLinen · Nov 13, 2018

Welcome to Good News!

You have come to a link on this vast sight that declares the good news announced by angelic hosts. That good news is to all people, the lost broken and bruised members of Adam the first. We have been "made sinners" in Him, not by any choice of our own, but by reason of Him who has made it so.

Yes, in the manifold wisdom of our Creator & more intimately Abba, this world we are born into has one destination. That destination is Abba who loves you & I and has destined to make you and I more than sinners.

This is the equation

"The polus were made sinners" = Adam one>>>>>>

"The polus "made righteous" = The Last Adam

Please Note:

The identical mass made sinners in Adam (the polus), destined by Him who made it so, to be "made righteous." (the polus) in the Last Adam.

ClementofA · Nov 13, 2018

Der Alter said:
The Bible can me made to appear to support almost any heterodox concept by quoting selective verses out-of-context. Which is what has been done with these 3 vss. Lam 3;22 and 3:31-32.
post #1627

Psa 94:14-15
(14) For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.
(15) But judgment shall return unto righteousness: and all the upright in heart shall follow it.
Lam 1:8
(8) Jerusalem hath grievously sinned, therefore she is become as one unclean; all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness; she herself also sigheth, and turneth backward.
The subject is what is happening to Jerusalem not the whole world.

Lam 1:12
(12) 'Let it not come unto you, all ye that pass by! Behold, and see if there be any pain like unto my pain, which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me in the day of His fierce anger.
The writer is complaining about what is happening to himself, not all mankind.

Irrelevant. The subject there in chapter 1 is not the subject in chapter 3 here:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Der Alter said:
Lam 1:17
(17) Zion spreadeth forth her hands; there is none to comfort her; the LORD hath commanded concerning Jacob, that they that are round about him should be his adversaries; Jerusalem is among them as one unclean.
The problems of Zion and Jacob, not all mankind.

Stating the obvious. Again irrelevant. Chapter 1 does not tell us what is revealed in chapter 3.

Der Alter said:
Lam 3:25
(25) The LORD is good unto them that wait for Him, to the soul that seeketh Him.
The Lord is good to them that wait and seek for Him. The Lord is not good to those who do not wait and seek for Him.

(25) The LORD is good unto them that wait for Him

Does v.25a apply to Israelites only or anyone of any nation? Or these:

26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

27It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.

Der Alter said:
Lam 3:31
(31) For the Lord will not cast off for ever.
Does this mean all mankind when the writer has not been talking about all mankind before?

See above re vs. 25-27 and why do you ignore the immediately following context and rest of the author's continuing thought:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

When you see the word "for" look & see what it is there for.

Der Alter said:
Lm 3:40
(40) Let us search and try our ways, and return to the LORD.
"Us," only Jerusalem and Zion whom the writer has been talking about.

Why do you ignore all these verses:

34To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth,

35To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High,

36To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not.

Does "the earth" (v.34) mean Israel alone?

37Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?

38Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

39Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?

Der Alter said:
Lam 3:42
(42) We have transgressed and have rebelled; Thou hast not pardoned.
“We” Jerusalem and Zion not all mankind.

Lam 3:43
(43) Thou hast covered with anger and pursued us; Thou hast slain unsparingly.
Who is “us” Jerusalem and Zion or all mankind?

Lam 3:45-48
(45) Thou hast made us as the offscouring and refuse in the midst of the peoples.
(46) All our enemies have opened their mouth wide against us.
(47) Terror and the pit are come upon us, desolation and destruction.
(48) Mine eye runneth down with rivers of water, for the breach of the daughter of my people.
Vs. 45 two groups “us” and “the peoples.” Vs. 46, two groups “our enemies” and “us”. Vss. 47-48 “us” and “my people” not all mankind.

Lam 3:56-57
(56) Thou heardest my voice; hide not Thine ear at my sighing, at my cry.
Lam 3:57
(57) Thou drewest near in the day that I called upon Thee; Thou saidst: 'Fear not.'
The writer is praying to God about his problems not all mankind.

Irrelevant in light of my comments above and the more immediate contexts of 3:31.

Der Alter said:
Lam 3:62-66
(62) The lips of those that rose up against me, and their muttering against me all the day.
(63) Behold Thou their sitting down, and their rising up; I am their song.
(64) Thou wilt render unto them a recompense, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.
(65) Thou wilt give them hardness of heart, Thy curse unto them.
(66) Thou wilt pursue them in anger, and destroy them from under the heavens of the LORD.
If the writer was saying in Lam 3:31 the Lord will not cast off all mankind for ever, how could he say that God would pursue them and destroy them from under the heavens [plural] of God vs. 3:66.

Obviously to destroy does not require casting off forever. What is the problem in understanding the easy harmonization of 3:31-33 with 3:62-66? From "under the heavens" is a way of saying - from the earth or from this life. It says nothing about postmortem consequences or final destiny.

Der Alter said:
Did the writer forget what he wrote in 3:33?

No, you just don't seem to see how 3:31-33 & 3:62-66 easily harmonize.

Der Alter said:
Do you think that the writer or anyone at the time of Jeremiah thought that God was going to save all of Israel’s enemies?

What does he say:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Does it get any plainer than that?

Der Alter said:
Lam 4:16
(16) The anger of the LORD hath divided them; He will no more regard them; they respected not the persons of the priests, they were not gracious unto the elders.
Does “no more” mean “in the sweet by and by I will regard them again?" Is that what the people of Jeremiah’s time believed?

As translated by NIV & NET, two of your most trusted versions, it says only what is, not how long it will be into the future:

16 The LORD himself has scattered them; he no longer watches over them. The priests are shown no honor, the elders no favor. (NIV)

16 The LORD himself has scattered them; he no longer watches over them. They did not honor the priests; they did not show favor to the elders. (NET)

16 The face of Jehovah hath divided them, He doth not add to behold them, The face of priests they have not lifted up, Elders they have not favoured. (YLT)

16 The face of Yahweh has made them split up; He shall not continue to look upon them; They have not respected the priests; they have not favored the elders. (CLV)

16 he shall not proceed to look upon them
Lamentations 4 O how the gold shall be darkened, and the good silver changed; holy stones were discharged at the top of all the streets,

So it also is perfectly harmonious with:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

FineLinen · Nov 14, 2018

Paul's Soaring Logic

Moving along, we meet with another of Paul's mathematical -- logical arguments in Romans 6:5-8 linked with 2 Cor 5:14. I would like to regress a moment for the sake of the mathematically minded among my readers, and consider the form of his logic on this point. It is the same form that he used in the previous point.

Paul uses an algebraic formula that says if D=A, and D=B, and D=C, then D=A=B=C. Here is the analysis of Paul's reasoning based upon Romans 6:5-8 and 2 Cor 5:14:

D= IF we have been united with Him in HIS Death (or we have died with Him).

A= We shall be freed from sin

B= We will be united with Him in His Resurrection.

C= We will also Live with Him.

2 Cor 5:14 goes on to make the Glorious Assertion which the LOVE of CHRIST compels us to proclaim, namely, "That we are CONVINCED that one (Jesus Christ) DID indeed die for ALL, therefore, ALL have died." Theorem D is therefore true, "That we HAVE ALL been united with Him in His death." It therefore follows that Theorems A, B and C need also be true: that, "We have ALL been freed from Sin," "We ALL will be united with Him in His Resurrection," and "We will ALL live with Him." As in 1Cor 15:23, however, "Each in his own turn."

The theological mechanics of exactly HOW ALL Humanity died, first in Adam and secondly in Christ, are outside the scope of our present discussion. However, I am sure that you at least ACCEPT the fact that in the First Adam all died, rendering ALL Humanity sinful (you MUST believe this if you are an Orthodox Christian). This being the case, you are then COMPELLED to accept that in the Second Adam ALL died again, with the result being Justification to ALL Humanity. -Albert Jenke-

God's Ultimate Intention

God's Ultimate Intention

FineLinen · Nov 14, 2018

Dear ABC: The mystery of evil & why the Creator allows it is one of the great questions all of us must face. I personally believe that God has purpose in all He does: “I form light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things.” In the final analysis God is the ta panta of the all.

The Purpose Of Evil by A.P. Adams

https://kingdom-resources.com/2017/10/02/the-purpose-of-evil-by-a-p-adams/

I cannot doubt that good shall fall At last – far off – at last to all.
If this is the outcome, then all things, evil included, are to eventuate in good, and thus we arrive at the same conclusion that we have reached in so many other ways in this article. Evil must be done of God’s servants for good. It must eventuate in good, for nothing but good is the final result!
Thus does reason and the Word set forth the purpose of evil. My feeble powers of expression are altogether inadequate for the full presentation of the great truth, but these thoughts will suggest the solution to the problem and will help the lover of truth to a deeper and fuller apprehension of the unique and wonderful ways of God; “Lo, these are parts of His ways; but how little a portion is heard of Him, and the thunder of His power, who can understand!” (Job. 26:14)

FineLinen · Nov 14, 2018

he-man · Nov 14, 2018

ClementofA said:
In typical he-man form you ignore what i posted & repeat the same verse again and/or post some other verses without addressing what i've posted. All your verses have been addressed before & you had no answer to how they were shown to be harmonious with Scriptural universalism.

Unique proof that the Bible dispels Universalism:
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince [Jesus] of this world be cast out.
John 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Luke 14:24　 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

Heb 12:25　 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:　

2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

John 3:36　 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.　

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Psalm 127:1 Unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the guards stand watch in vain.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

he-man · Nov 14, 2018

FineLinen said:
Welcome to Good News!

You have come to a link on this vast sight that declares the good news announced by angelic hosts. That good news is to all people, the lost broken and bruised members of Adam the first. We have been "made sinners" in Him, not by any choice of our own, but by reason of Him who has made it so.

Yes, in the manifold wisdom of our Creator & more intimately Abba, this world we are born into has one destination. That destination is Abba who loves you & I and has destined to make you and I more than sinners.

This is the equation

"The polus were made sinners" = Adam one>>>>>>

"The polus "made righteous" = The Last Adam

Please Note:

The identical mass made sinners in Adam (the polus), destined by Him who made it so, to be "made righteous." (the polus) in the Last Adam.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince [the Son of man] of this world be cast out.
John 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

FineLinen · Nov 14, 2018

Dear he-man: My friend you are little more than a broken record. The Lord of Glory specializes in blind eyes, deaf ears & dead mortals. You my friend can know more than verses piled one on another, the Giver of life stands before us!

Everlasting punishment

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal."—Matt. 25:46.

Perhaps no passage of Scripture between the lids of the Bible is brought forward more frequently and confidently to support the doctrine of endless punishment, than the text we now propose to examine and explain. Having given the subject a most careful and critical examination, we are fully persuaded, that multitudes, through a false religious education, are led to believe that the text teaches the doctrine of endless punishment. . This doctrine is assumed to be true, and then the passage before us is adduced to prove it! Thousands are religiously educated to believe that everlasting means endless—their early instruction and all their sectarian prejudices are in favor of such a definition of the word, and hence, when they read of "everlasting punishment," they understand the expression to mean "endless punishment." Such are therefore surprised to learn that aionios, here translated everlasting, does not necessarily have that signification, that it is not the same word in the original which is rendered endless; that it is often used in the Scriptures in a limited sense, and that its proper signification is age-lasting.

Before coming to a direct exposition of the text before us, we ask the attention of the reader to two or three important considerations which have a legitimate bearing upon our subject.

First, The different classes of individuals referred to in the text, are acquitted and condemned on account of their Works, and therefore the subject cannot refer to the immortal world; for heaven is not to be attained by good works! Eternal life is the pure, free and unpurchased gift of God, and is not of works of righteousness that we have done, lest any man should boast!

The second important consideration to which we invite the reader's attention, is, that the original word kolasis, supposed to teach the doctrine of endless punishment, was frequently applied, as lexicographers inform us, to the pruning of trees. In this sense, its application here is full of significance. It shows at once the important object of punishment, viz.: to improve and benefit man. For what purpose are trees pruned? Not to injure them, certainly; but to improve them. Such being clearly the object of punishment, under the government of an all-wise and benevolent God, hence this term kolasis was appropriately employed in the text.

Lexicographers define kolasis thus: "Punishment, chastisement, correction, the pruning of trees." This "everlasting punishment" (aionios kolasis) is designed for some wise and benevolent purpose, not absolutely to injure, but ultimately to benefit and improve those chastened.

Christian Universalism, not UUA, universalist apologetics, victorious gospel, Hell's defeat, ultimate reconciliation

Punishment= kolasis=

Designed by Abba for wise & benevolent purpose to benefit & improve those chastened.

FineLinen · Nov 14, 2018

"WHAT MAN OF YOU HAVING AN HUNDRED SHEEP * * IF HE LOSE ONE OF THEM, DOES NOT LEAVE THE NINETY AND NINE * * AND GO AFTER THAT WHICH IS LOST UNTIL HE FIND IT ?" S. Luke 15. 4.

Antient commentators follow two main lines, (I.) the hundred sheep are all men; (II.) are all spiritual creatures: in the former case the wicked are the strayed sheep: in the latter mankind itself, which by the Fall has strayed from the heavenly fold. Both views seem to involve Universalism.

For in the one all the wicked, in the other all humanity, are sought till they are found. Any narrowing of the "sheep" to the elect, is quite alien from the whole spirit of this parable, which was specially addressed to the publican and the sinner. See how broadly Christ bases His argument, "what man of you," He asks, "would not do this ?"

Observe the immense significance of Christ's teaching. It expressly sanctions the right to argue from those feelings of humanity, shared even by the outcast and sinful, to the divine feelings. Note, too, the ground taken - the divine loss. It is not the man who loses his soul, it is God who loses the man; (a fact ignored - with much else - in popular teaching.)

"WHAT WOMAN, HAVING TEN PIECES OF SILVER, IF SHE LOSE ONE PIECE, DOES NOT SEEK DILIGENTLY TILL SHE FINDS IT?" S. Luke 15. 8

Here is precisely the same broad human basis, and the same broad hopeful teaching. Keep steadily in view these facts taught here: (I.) - Our own feelings of love and pity are a safe guide to God's feelings; on these very feelings Christ expressly builds, asking, "what man of you ?"

(II.) - Every lost soul is God's loss, Who, therefore, seeks its recovery; and

(III.) - will seek till He find it.

(IV.) - The whole of the loss is repaired.

(V.) If God feel the loss of man, He will always feel it. Hence, if sin be endless, the divine Passion must surely be endless too.

"FOR THE SON OF MAN IS COME TO SEEK AND TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST." S. Luke 19. 10

If so, I gather from His own parables, and His essential nature, that so long as anything is lost, Jesus Christ will go on seeking and saving; for is He not always the same? (Heb. 13 8. "'the lost" are His charge, and not some of the lost, a very different thing. Or are we to read this verse thus: "He came indeed to save 'the lost '-but those in the fullest sense 'lost' He will never save?"

"THE SAME CAME * * THAT ALL MEN THROUGH HIM (CHRIST) MIGHT BELIEVE." S. John 1. 7

Yes, that all men might believe, that is indeed the divine purpose - the purpose of Him Who sent the Baptist. But dare we say, that what God purposes, He will fail to do?

I read distinctly of the immutability of His counsel (Heb. 6. 17). Am I to believe that the immutable purpose of the Almighty and unchanging God shall finally come to nothing?

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

Thomas Allin: Christ Triumphant HERE

Der Alte · Nov 14, 2018

ClementofA said:
Irrelevant. The subject there in chapter 1 is not the subject in chapter 3 here:

Saying "Irrelevant" does not make it so. I explained why everything I quoted was relevant.

Clem said:
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…...

And I clearly showed the context of these two out-of-context proof texts, in my post, which you ignored.

Gentiles-Jewish Encyclopedia
With regard to the text "This is the law when a man dieth in a tent" (Num. xix. 14), they held that only Israelites are men, quoting the prophet, "Ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men" (Ezek. xxxiv. 31); Gentiles they classed not as men but as barbarians (B. M. 108b
GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Clem said:
As translated by NIV & NET, two of your most trusted versions, it says only what is, not how long it will be into the future:

Sometimes I prefer the Jewish Publication Society and the Septuagint

JPS Lam 4:16
(16) The anger of the LORD hath divided them; He will no more regard them; they respected not the persons of the priests, they were not gracious unto the elders.
LXX Lam 4:16
(16) The presence of the Lord was their portion; but he will not again look upon them: they regarded not the person of the priests, they pitied not the prophets.

Clem said:
Obviously to destroy does not require casting off forever. What is the problem in understanding the easy harmonization of 3:31-33 with 3:62-66? From "under the heavens" is a way of saying - from the earth or from this life. It says nothing about postmortem consequences or final destiny.

.....Wrong saying something is "obvious" does not make it so. "from under the heavens" does not mean "from the earth or this life." There are three "heavens" spoken of in scripture. The immediate atmosphere of the earth e.g. "birds of the heaven." The universe e.g. "birds of the heaven." The third heaven is the abode of God. e.g."God in heaven."
שׁמד/shâmad translated destroyed in Lam 3:66. Unlike the Greek word always means destroy
; to desolate: - destroy (-uction), bring to nought, overthrow, perish, pluck down, X utterly.
See e.g. JPS and Septuagint

JPS Deu 9:14
(14) let Me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven; and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.'
LXX Deu 9:14
(14) And now suffer me utterly to destroy them, and I will blot out their name from under heaven, and will make of thee a nation great and strong, and more numerous than this

ClementofA · Nov 14, 2018

Der Alter said:
Saying "Irrelevant" does not make it so.

You should remember that next time you use the word, which has been often. Again, you state the obvious.

Der Alter said:
And I clearly showed the context of these two out-of-context proof texts, in my post, which you ignored.

Actually i pointed out all the verses you ignored & still do.

Der Alter said:
Gentiles-Jewish Encyclopedia
With regard to the text "This is the law when a man dieth in a tent" (Num. xix. 14), they held that only Israelites are men, quoting the prophet, "Ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men" (Ezek. xxxiv. 31); Gentiles they classed not as men but as barbarians (B. M. 108b

Der Alter said:
GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

The LXX omits "are men", as do two of your most trusted versions, the NIV & NET, etc. Perhaps you should listen to them instead of the silly racist opinions of those whom Scripture says their minds are blinded (2 Cor.4:4; 1 Cor.2:12-16). Is God a racist? Are His inspired Scriptures?

The opinions of Scripture by Christ mocking anti-Christian racist Jews which twist & reject the Word of God (the Scriptures) & replace them with the traditions of the Pharisees are to be rejected.

Mk.7:13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.

A single Jewish opinion of uncertain date is not inspired Scripture. Inspired Scripture is God breathed & relates God's opinions which are always true. Is it God's opinion that non Jews are not men?

"Now, that neither you nor any else mistake the allegory, note, saith God, this flock of my pasture are not sheep literally, but they are men..." [Matthew Poole's Commentary]

"And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men,.... This is observed, to show that all that had been said in this chapter concerning sheep, and a flock of sheep, was to be understood, not in a literal sense, but in a figurative one, of such as were rational and spiritual persons; a set of men..." [Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible]

Ezekiel 34:31 Commentaries: "As for you, My sheep, the sheep of My pasture, you are men, and I am your God," declares the Lord GOD.

Nothing in Ezek.34:31 says only Jews are men & non Jews are non human. A Jewish interpretation that non Jews are non humans is irrelevant, uninspired and anti-scriptural.

Der Alter said:
Sometimes I prefer the Jewish Publication Society and the Septuagint

JPS Lam 4:16
(16) The anger of the LORD hath divided them; He will no more regard them; they respected not the persons of the priests, they were not gracious unto the elders.
LXX Lam 4:16
(16) The presence of the Lord was their portion; but he will not again look upon them: they regarded not the person of the priests, they pitied not the prophets.

This translation of the LXX says: "he shall not proceed to look upon them":
Lamentations 4 O how the gold shall be darkened, and the good silver changed; holy stones were discharged at the top of all the streets,

Such does not necessarily mean "he shall never look upon them again". So there is no contradiction between Lam.4:16 and 3:31-33:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

The highly acclaimed Liddell-Scott Greek lexicon states:

"in LXX and NT, continue or repeat an action":
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, προστίθημι

If someone says "I will not continue to sleep" does that mean they will never sleep again? No.

Which applied to Lam.4:16 gives this alternate translation:

"he shall not **continue** to look upon them"

IOW He will stop looking upon them. But it does not reveal how long He shall do so. While Lam.3:31-33 KJV indicates it will not be forever:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

"Lit:"place/set-toward", hence add/proceed-onward":
Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - προστίθημι - to add (v.)

"I will not proceed to sleep".

So the LXX does not deny the plain irrefutable statement of:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Der Alter said:
"from under the heavens" does not mean "from the earth or this life."

Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. (Jer.10:11)

"He looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens" (Job 28:24)

“There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.”

"God offers much wisdom in the saying, “There is a time for everything, / and a season for every activity under the heavens.” God is sovereign. Our activity in this world is meaningful as we rely on His wisdom, His timing, and His goodness."
What does it mean that there is a proper time for everything (Ecclesiastes 3:1–8)?

Der Alter said:
שׁמד/shâmad translated destroyed in Lam 3:66. Unlike the Greek word always means destroy

Der Alter said:
; to desolate: - destroy (-uction), bring to nought, overthrow, perish, pluck down, X utterly.
See e.g. JPS and Septuagint

Der Alter said:
JPS Deu 9:14
(14) let Me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven; and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.'
LXX Deu 9:14
(14) And now suffer me utterly to destroy them, and I will blot out their name from under heaven, and will make of thee a nation great and strong, and more numerous than this

Obviously to destroy does not require casting off forever. What is the problem in understanding the easy harmonization of 3:31-33 with 3:62-66? From "under the heavens" is a way of saying - from the earth or from this life. It says nothing about postmortem consequences or final destiny.

The heavens in "under the heavens" will pass away & there will be a new universe. The destroyed bodies will live again when they are un-destroyed in resurrection. Their souls continue to exist & live when their bodies are destroyed. Nothing is said in Lam.3:62-66 of what will become of them in the new heavens & new earth. Though 3:31-33 says:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

gordonhooker · Nov 14, 2018

are we there yet?

FineLinen · Nov 14, 2018

gordonhooker said:
are we there yet?

Dear Gordon: It is good seeing you again. I am not sure we will ever get there. We now have a large link with much information to absorb. One thing is evident to me after a fairly large journey with Father, there are outer laminar spheres of the unspeakable unknown which must surely be expressed.

Do you grasp the restitution of all things? If so, could you elaborate?

"The life of grace is not an effort on our part to achieve a goal we set ourselves. It is a continually renewed attempt simply to believe that someone else has done all the achieving that is needed and to live in relationship with that person, whether we achieve or not. If that doesn't seem like much to you, you're right: it isn't. And, as a matter of fact, the life of grace is even less than that. It's not even our life at all, but the life of that Someone Else rising like a tide in the ruins of our death.” -Robert Farrar Capon-

FineLinen · Nov 14, 2018

he-man · Nov 15, 2018

FineLinen said:
Dear he-man: My friend you are little more than a broken record. The Lord of Glory specializes in blind eyes, deaf ears & dead mortals. You my friend can know more than verses piled one on another, the Giver of life stands before us!

Everlasting punishment

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal."—Matt. 25:46. Lexicographers define kolasis thus: "Punishment, chastisement, correction, the pruning of trees." This "everlasting punishment" (aionios kolasis) is designed for some wise and benevolent purpose, not absolutely to injure, but ultimately to benefit and improve those chastened.
Punishment= kolasis=

Again, Broken record; Broken record; Broken record; You are in left field along with the goats:

The Judgment at Christ's Coming

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting penal infliction: but the righteous into life eternal.
G2851 κόλασις kolasis From G2849; penal infliction; Hp.Praec.5, Pl.Ap.26a, al., Th.1.41; opp. τιμωρία, Arist.Rh.1369b13; of divine retribution, Ev.Matt.25.46 penalize

2Th 1:9　 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,　
AMP
These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
AMPC
Such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin (destruction and perdition) and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
CSB
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious strength
CEB
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the Lord’s presence and away from his mighty glory.
CJB
They will suffer the just penalty of eternal destruction, far away from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might.
DARBY
who shall pay the penalty [of] everlasting destruction from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,
DLNT
who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength,
EHV
Such people will receive a just penalty: eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious strength,
GW
They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious power.
HCSB
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength
LEB
who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,
MSG
All this trouble is a clear sign that God has decided to make you fit for the kingdom. You’re suffering now, but justice is on the way. When the Master Jesus appears out of heaven in a blaze of fire with his strong angels, he’ll even up the score by settling accounts with those who gave you such a bad time. His coming will be the break we’ve been waiting for. Those who refuse to know God and refuse to obey the Message will pay for what they’ve done. Eternal exile from the presence of the Master and his splendid power is their sentence. But on that very same day when he comes, he will be exalted by his followers and celebrated by all who believe—and all because you believed what we told you.
NOG
They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious power.
NABRE
These will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power,
NASB
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
NET
They will undergo the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,
NTE
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his power,
OJB
These are the ones who will pay an Onesh of Avaddon Olam (Eternal Destruction [Gehinnom]) away from the Shechinah of Hashem UMEHADAR GE’ONO ("and from the splendor of his majesty" YESHAYAH 2:19),
TPT
They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, banished from the Lord’s presence and from the manifestation of his glorious power.
TLV
They will pay the price of eternal ruin, away from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power—
VOICE
And what’s to become of them? They’ll pay for what they’ve done; their punishment will be eternal destruction. And what’s worse? They’ll be banished from the Lord’s presence and glorious power.
WEB
who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

FineLinen · Nov 15, 2018

Dear he-man: that is a ghastly mess!

Hymn History: The Love of God

Frederick M. Lehman was a California businessman that lost everything through business reverses. He was forced to spend his working hours in manual labor, working in a Pasadena packing house packing oranges and lemons into wooden crates. Not an ideal environment for writing love songs, but this was the environment the Lord chose to use.

Mr. Lehman was a Christian who rejoiced in his salvation. He was so moved by a Sunday evening sermon on the love of God that he could hardly sleep. The next morning, the thrill of the previous evening had not left him. As he drove to the packing house, the makings of a song began to come together in his head, with God’s love as the theme.

Throughout the day, as he packed oranges and lemons, the words continued to flow. Perhaps he jotted down words on various pieces of broken crate as he went along. He could hardly wait to get home and commit these words to paper.

Continued below

Nickel Notes: Hymn History: The Love of God

God's love prevails

he-man · Nov 15, 2018

FineLinen said:
Dear he-man: that is a ghastly mess!

Hymn History: The Love of God

Frederick M. Lehman was a California businessman that lost everything through business reverses. He was forced to spend his working hours in manual labor, working in a Pasadena packing house packing oranges and lemons into wooden crates. Not an ideal environment for writing love songs, but this was the environment the Lord chose to use.

Mr. Lehman was a Christian who rejoiced in his salvation. He was so moved by a Sunday evening sermon on the love of God that he could hardly sleep. The next morning, the thrill of the previous evening had not left him. As he drove to the packing house, the makings of a song began to come together in his head, with God’s love as the theme.

Throughout the day, as he packed oranges and lemons, the words continued to flow. Perhaps he jotted down words on various pieces of broken crate as he went along. He could hardly wait to get home and commit these words to paper.

Continued below

Nickel Notes: Hymn History: The Love of God

God's love prevails

he-man · Nov 15, 2018

FineLinen said:
Dear he-man: that is a ghastly mess!

Hymn History: The Love of God

Frederick M. Lehman was a California businessman that lost everything through business reverses. He was forced to spend his working hours in manual labor, working in a Pasadena packing house packing oranges and lemons into wooden crates. Not an ideal environment for writing love songs, but this was the environment the Lord chose to use.

Mr. Lehman was a Christian who rejoiced in his salvation. He was so moved by a Sunday evening sermon on the love of God that he could hardly sleep. The next morning, the thrill of the previous evening had not left him. As he drove to the packing house, the makings of a song began to come together in his head, with God’s love as the theme.

Throughout the day, as he packed oranges and lemons, the words continued to flow. Perhaps he jotted down words on various pieces of broken crate as he went along. He could hardly wait to get home and commit these words to paper.

Continued below

Nickel Notes: Hymn History: The Love of God

God's love prevails

And a fool"s voice is known by his many words.
Ecclesiastes 5:1-7

(1) Walk prudently when you go to the house of God; and draw near to hear rather than to give the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they do evil.
(2) Do not be rash with your mouth,
And let not your heart utter anything hastily before God.
For God is in heaven, and you on earth;
Therefore let your words be few.
(3) For a dream comes through much activity,
And a fool"s voice is known by his many words.
(4) When you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it;
For He has no pleasure in fools.
Pay what you have vowed—
(5) Better not to vow than to vow and not pay. (6) Do not let your mouth cause your flesh to sin, nor say before the messenger of God that it was an error. Why should God be angry at your excuse and destroy the work of your hands? (7) For in the multitude of dreams and many words there is also vanity. But fear God.

ClementofA · Nov 15, 2018

he-man said:
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting penal infliction: but the righteous into life eternal.
G2851 κόλασις kolasis From G2849; penal infliction; Hp.Praec.5, Pl.Ap.26a, al., Th.1.41; opp. τιμωρία, Arist.Rh.1369b13; of divine retribution, Ev.Matt.25.46 penalize

??? said:
"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

??? said:
Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

FineLinen · Nov 15, 2018

The Sheep & The Goats

ON the SHEEP and the GOATS By Jonathan Mitchell

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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