Is "Christian Zionism" Biblical ?

BABerean2 said:

1Ti 1:4　 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.　


The New Covenant is about Grace, instead of race. (Matthew 3:9, Galatians 3:16)

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So, you inerpret one scripture to contradict another?

geiroffenberg said:

i support israels right to exist and defend themselves as a nation and the jewish people is still the jewish people loved for their role in bringin the gospel. BUT the city jerusalem and the temple was destroyed for a reason. There is no biblical jewish priesthood and animal sacrifice to be re instituted on the temple square. that would be a direct denial of the eternal gospel.
IThe time of the law with the temple and whatever its role was, was over when it was said it was over, and all the kings horses and all the kings men couldnt put humpty dumpty together again.

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How could the Jews celebrate the true Passover after the destruction of the Temple and Sanctuary?
Also, the veil/curtain is shown being rent in 2 in the Gospels.
Would that be the outer or inner curtain?

Matthew 27:51
and behold! the veil/curtain of the Sanctuary is rent into two from upward unto downward, and the land is quaked, and the rocks are rent [Mark 15:38, Luke 23:45]

2 Corinthians 3:14
But was calloused the minds of them.
For until the today day, the same veil/covering upon the reading of the Old Covenant is remaining, no being un-covered-veiled
That In Christ it is being-taken-away.

Hebrew 9:3
After yet the second veil, a booth, the one being said holy of holies.

Do "Christian Zionists" share in the guilt of innocent bloodshed in the Middle East and around the world? This would also include Dispensationalists and others who do not recognize Jesus and the Church as biblical Israel. And instead believe today's Jews have divine rights to the land. When in fact Paul says;

“For all the promises of God [including those made to Abraham] in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20) (KJV 1900)

Not in the least. Over 1 million dead in the Iran / Iraq war in the 80’s. Over 500,000 dead in the Eqypt / Yemen war. Kurds by the thousands gassed and killed by Turkey, Iraq, and Syria. Hundreds of thousands killed and displaced in the recent Syrian civil war. And the list goes on and on. None of which had anything to do with Zionism and Israel or Christian support. The number of deaths between Israel and it’s neighbors is a fraction in comparison. Arabs were busy slaughtering each other long before 1948.

Even today, if even a wounded Syrian soldier makes it to the Israeli border, he will receive medical treatment inside Israel and Israelis will pick up the cost.

BABerean2 said:

I prefer to let Paul and the other New Testament writers interpret the Old Testament for me instead of using you, and John Hagee, and Tommy Ice, etc.

Gal 3:16　 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.　


We are still waiting to see the New Covenant passages from one of your books.

When do you think we can have a look at them?

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Equating me, Tommy Ice, and John Hagee is like equating oranges, water mellons, and cannon balls. Any imagined similarity it purely superficial.

Copperhead said:

Not in the least. Over 1 million dead in the Iran / Iraq war in the 80’s. Over 500,000 dead in the Eqypt / Yemen war. And the list goes on and on. None of which had anything to do with Zionism and Israel or Christian support. The number of deaths between Israel and it’s neighbors is a fraction in comparison. Arabs were busy slaughtering each other long before 1948.

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How about the deaths related to Israel and Zionism?

Dave L said:

How about the deaths related to Israel and Zionism?

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Under 100,000. Would have been significantly less if nations surrounding Israel had not attacked.

Copperhead said:

Under 100,000. Would have been significantly less if nations surrounding Israel had not attacked.

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Still, if they have no divine right to the land and Zionists support them, when they should be preaching to both sides, don't they misrepresent Christ and involve themselves in innocent bloodshed?

Dave L said:

Still, if they have no divine right to the land and Zionists support them, when they should be preaching to both sides, don't they misrepresent Christ and involve themselves in innocent bloodshed?

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You inserted in parentheses that all the promises to Israel belong to the Church. Well, why hasn’t the Church laid claim to the land from the Nile to the Euphrates? As for Islam, Jerusalem is not even mentioned in the Quran, but after 1948 it suddenly became the 3rd holiest city.

It amazes me how so much vitriol is spent on a sliver of land no bigger than New Jersey. No one gave a rip about it till 1918, and since 1948 the Jewish people have turned it into a garden. Ask those Arabs who actually live in Israel that have benefited from that prosperity and are free to worship as they choose.

Israel was a virtual wasteland, and now supplies more produce to Europe than any other nation. It is close to being the technological leader in agriculture for the entire world. Israeli dairy cows, no other dairy cattle in the world produces an equal amount per cow. It is commonly said that every moo is computerized into a data base.

Israel is able to get drinking water out of the atmosphere. Of their water usage in the country, almost 100% is reclaimed and recycled, especially sewage water.

Why haven’t Christians made similar progress? Would seem that not ALL the promises to the Hebrew people have made it to the Church. Either that or the Church has squandered its efforts fighting each other and pitching a fit about Israel.

Biblewriter said:

We need to simply ignore all the nonsense, and rely upon the clear and unambiguois statements of scripture.

Ezekiel 36:10 very clearly and explicitly says that in a future day, "all the house of Israel, all of it," will again inhabit "the mountains of Israel," with "the hills, the rivers, and the valleys." (verse 6) Other scriptures promise restoration, not only to "Israel," but also to Judah," to "Ephraim," and to each of the twelve tribes by name. To deny that this is actually going to happen, is to deny a very large number of explicitly stated scriptures.

People who want to deny this truth love to pretend that this idea is a relatively modern invention. But that is blatantly false. In 1611, the Bible first became widely available at a rational price, and Bible study exploded in England. The promised future blessing of Israel and her future return to her land was taught by many English writers in the following century. But even then, the idea was not new. It is as old as the study of the scriptures.

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PAY ATTENTION readers: this is truth.

Copperhead said:

You inserted in parentheses that all the promises to Israel belong to the Church. Well, why hasn’t the Church laid claim to the land from the Nile to the Euphrates? As for Islam, Jerusalem is not even mentioned in the Quran, but after 1948 it suddenly became the 3rd holiest city.

It amazes me how so much vitriol is spent on a sliver of land no bigger than New Jersey. No one gave a rip about it till 1918, and since 1948 the Jewish people have turned it into a garden. Ask those Arabs who actually live in Israel that have benefited from that prosperity and are free to worship as they choose.

Israel was a virtual wasteland, and now supplies more produce to Europe than any other nation. It is close to being the technological leader in agriculture for the entire world. Israeli dairy cows, no other dairy cattle in the world produces an equal amount per cow. It is commonly said that every moo is computerized into a data base.

Israel is able to get drinking water out of the atmosphere. Of their water usage in the country, almost 100% is reclaimed and recycled, especially sewage water.

Why haven’t Christians made similar progress? Would seem that not ALL the promises to the Hebrew people have made it to the Church. Either that or the Church has squandered its efforts fighting each other and pitching a fit about Israel.

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Abraham and other saints believed the physical promises were symbols of the heavenly (Hebrews 11). So the spiritually minded see them the same way. But the physical promises do not belong to the broken off Jews. And they only have rights to them if the accept Christ (Romans 11:23). “For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20) (KJV 1900)

BABerean2 said:

All of you claim modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church, during a future time.

Therefore, all of you are promoting some form of Dual Covenant Theology, although the forms are not identical.

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Do you deny that Jews will be in Jesus' millennial kingdom?

iamlamad said:

Do you deny that Jews will be in Jesus' millennial kingdom?

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To agree or disagree with that First you have to get into that whole doctrine about a literal millennium lol. Most dont believe that or see it in the bible.

I never seen any jew in the bible being saved any other way than trough repentance and faith as everybody else. Its going to take a very strange doctrine to claim jews, who literally are the once to which the gospel came to, where it came from to the world, all the original preachers were jews, for them to have a other way of salvation.

This thing about dual covenant, this verse were written specifically to jewish believers:

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he said, “Behold, the days come”, says the Lord, “that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
Heb 8:9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they didn’t continue in my covenant, and I disregarded them,” says the Lord.
Heb 8:10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days,” says the Lord; “I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Heb 8:11 They will not teach every man his fellow citizen,and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all will know me, from their least to their greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more.”
Heb 8:13 In that he says, “A new covenant”, he has made the first old. But that which is becoming old and grows aged is near to vanishing away.

"they didnt continue in my covenant"
"i disregarded them"
"I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel"
"he has made the first old. But that which is becoming old and grows aged is near to vanishing away."

"near to vanishing away"....that pretty much settles it, id say, it is vanished by now.

BABerean2 said:

I have had Christians sit in my living room for Bible studies, who were from Jewish families.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

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That was a nice side step to avoid answering.

Do you believe Jews (by blood or by their religion) will be in Jesus' millennial kingdom?

geiroffenberg said:

"he has made the first old. But that which is becoming old and grows aged is near to vanishing away.""near to vanishing away"....that pretty much settles it, id say, it is vanished by now.

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Yes, like dust in the wind.
Excellent post!
Revelation is a lot like this parable of the old and new wineskins [remembering Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience.....]

Luke 5:37
"And no one is casting young<3501> wine into Old<3820> skins [OC], if yet no surely shall be ruined the young wine of the skins,
and it shall be being poured-out and its skin shall be perishing.
38 but young wine into New<2537> skins[NC] is to be cast
and both are preserved together.
39 And no one drinking Old [OC]immediately is willing young[NC],
for he is saying, 'for the the Old is kind/mellow'".

2 Corinthians 5:17
So that if any in Christ a New<2537> Creation. [NC]
The ancient-things<744> pass-away, [OC]
behold! has become New the all-things

Philippians 3:2
Beware of the dogs! beware of the evil workers! beware of-the circumcision!
3 For we-are the circumcision, ones to Spirit of God worship,
boasting in Christ Jesus, and not in flesh having confidence.

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have surrounded me, assembly of ones doing evil have encompass me as a lion, hands of me and feet of me.

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I don't see any mention of gentiles in this verse:

2 Corinthians 6:17
wherefore come-forth out of midst of them![OC] and be being separated! is saying Lord.................

Nor in this one:

Revelation 3:9
“Behold! I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews [OC] and are not, but lie—
behold! I will make them come and worship before your [NC]feet, and to know that I have loved you.

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