The Second Coming Of Jesus

The Gryphon

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Ahh...So you do not believe that Ezekiel chapters 38-40 prophesy of the events that are to take place during a future to us 1000 year reign of a physical Christ from that physical temple on earth?

You really have a problem and I am not taking your Bait. Read what I have said and others have said. This is a discussion not a debate. I believe what I believe as I have said. If you do not then that is fine by me. As I said before, I believe some prophecies have been fulfilled and some have not. I and millions of others do not buy your ideas about of Preterism. You can have them as you are a free Moral Agent but stop trying to force them on me and not "all Christians are preterist" as you claim.

You said: "Any Christian who affirms any of the above passages are true and correct as written, is preterist, for only preterists believe the Last Hour, of the Last Days, at the ends of the ages, were underway in the first century as these and many other scriptures plainly teach.

All Christians are preterist.
We only vary by degree."

So let me ask you a question. Do you believe in the physical Second Coming of Jesus Christ? Acts 1:11, "And they said to them, Galilean men, why are you standing and staring into heaven? This Y'shua who was taken up from you to heaven, likewise he will come just as you have seen him who ascended into heaven.

The Error of Preterism
"Preterists" believe that all Bible prophecy is history; that most of it took place in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. They suggest the Tribulation was the persecution of the saints and Nero was the antichrist.

At the heart of the doctrine is that prophecy was declared and destined to be fulfilled within the generation of Messiah Yeshua's earthly ministry. All references in the Bible to the "last days" refer to the "last days" of Israel, which means that today Israel supposedly has no more relevance than the lost continent of Atlantis. The "New Jerusalem" is the Church now and forever, according to Preterists.

Read the rest here> The Error of Preterism , and here> Exposing the Error of Preterism, and here> The Error of Preterism - Bing
 
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parousia70

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You really have a problem and I am not taking your Bait. Read what I have said and others have said. This is a discussion not a debate. I believe what I believe as I have said.

Well, you actually haven't said whether or not you believe Ezekiel 38-40 depict future events in the so-called "Millennial Reign" of Christ on earth.

Do you?

a simple yes or no will do.
Why you keep skirting the issue is curious indeed.

If you do not then that is fine by me. As I said before, I believe some prophecies have been fulfilled and some have not.

Which makes you a partial preterist.

Why that fact is such a challenge for you to accept and embrace is mysterious.


You said: "Any Christian who affirms any of the above passages are true and correct as written, is preterist, for only preterists believe the Last Hour, of the Last Days, at the ends of the ages, were underway in the first century as these and many other scriptures plainly teach.

All Christians are preterist.
We only vary by degree."

Yes.
Such is Demonstrable fact.

So let me ask you a question. Do you believe in the physical Second Coming of Jesus Christ? Acts 1:11, "And they said to them, Galilean men, why are you standing and staring into heaven? This Y'shua who was taken up from you to heaven, likewise he will come just as you have seen him who ascended into heaven.

I believe the text. Do you?

Lets test.

The text says he would return "In like manner as He went into heaven"

Only the apostles saw Him go
Do you believe His return will be "in like manner"?

He handed out no rewards or punishment at the ascension.
Do you likewise believe His return will be in like manner?

How did Jesus go "into heaven"

Hidden from their eyes by a cloud, (Acts 1:9)
I believe in His "Like manner" return.

Do you?

It happened to Paul on the road to Damascus and to Stephen at His stoning.

Jesus Christ most certainly appeared in like manner as He left on at least those two occasions as testified by the apostolic witness.

I'm inclined to believe the apostolic witness.
 
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The Gryphon

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Many of the Old testament Prophets spoke of both current and future events. SO LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND I BELIEVE MUCH OF EZEKIEL CHAPTERS 38-40 REFERS TO EVENTS THAT HAVE BEEN FULLFILLED, ARE BEING FULFILLED AS WE SPEAK , AND THAT WILL BE FULLFILLED IN THE FUTURE! DO YOU UNDERSTAND????

I believe that most of the verses have yet to be fulfilled.

Mathew Henry Commentary :
Chapter 38 -
Ezekiel 38 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)
Chapter 39 - Ezekiel 39 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)
Chapter 40 - Ezekiel 40 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

You said: Such is Demonstrable fact. LOL

Revelation 1:7 7"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.


Matthew 25:30-32 “Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”

First Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.”

Matthew 24:42-44 “Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”




 
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parousia70

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Many of the Old testament Prophets spoke of both current and future events. SO LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND I BELIEVE MUCH OF EZEKIEL CHAPTERS 38-40 REFERS TO EVENTS THAT HAVE BEEN FULLFILLED, ARE BEING FULFILLED AS WE SPEAK , AND THAT WILL BE FULLFILLED IN THE FUTURE! DO YOU UNDERSTAND????


Easy there, friend.
No need to yell...

I believe that most of the verses have yet to be fulfilled.

I thought so... yet when I pressed you on the implications of such a belief, you said this:
I or nor anyone else said anything of such a nature! I have no idea where you got your ideas from. Those are your own words!

... When the Son of God returns I personally do not believe that sacrifices will continue as Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus) was the Spotless Lamb of God that was slain for the Sins of man and therefore there would not need to be sacrifice.

Please reconcile this statement:
"When the Son of God returns I personally do not believe that sacrifices will continue"

With your now stated belief that THESE passages are yet future:
Ezekiel 40:39
In the porch of the gate were two tables on each side, on which to slaughter the burnt offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering.

Ezekiel 42:13
the priests who are near to the LORD shall eat the most holy things. There they shall lay the most holy things, the grain offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering;

Ezekiel 43:20
'You shall take some of its blood and put it on its four horns and on the four corners of the ledge and on the border round about; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it.

Ezekiel 43:21
'You shall also take the bull for the sin offering

Ezekiel 43:22
'On the second day you shall offer a male goat without blemish for a sin offering

Ezekiel 43:27
'When they have completed the days, it shall be that on the eighth day and onward, the priests shall offer your burnt offerings on the altar, and your peace offerings; AND I WILL ACCEPT YOU

Ezekiel 44:9
'Thus says the Lord GOD, "No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary.

Ezekiel 44:10
"But the Levites who went far from Me when Israel went astray, who went astray from Me after their idols, shall bear the punishment for their iniquity. Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having oversight at the gates of the house and ministering in the house; they shall slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people

Ezekiel 44:23
"Moreover, they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and the profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

Ezekiel 43:7
Son of man, this [stone temple] is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever.

Is your position that these UNFULFILLED passages refer to a time BEFORE Jesus comes again, or AFTER?

 
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The Gryphon

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Your lack of understanding is really frustrating!!!

You said: Please reconcile this statement:
"When the Son of God returns I personally do not believe that sacrifices will continue"

Well with the Son of God living with them fulfilling the whole purpose of sacrifices in the Temple were supposed to teach the Jews and since scriptures saw when the Jews see the one they crucified all Israel will be converted in one day why would they continue to sacrifice???

I have stated my position over and over. Watch for this to happen in the future.

Joel 3:2 - 'I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.'

I suggest you read ALL of Romans 11 slowly, carefully and prayerfully because you seem to NOT understand it.

When the prophet Ezekiel wrote " Ezekiel 43:7
Son of man, this [stone temple] is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever.

What do you understand that term forever to mean? Does it mean until Jesus comes or until I change my mind or does G_d's word mean exactly what it says?

Do you not understand why Jesus is coming in G_d's plan or are you ignorant of such things? Have you not honesty read any of the things written in this thread? Do you not understand G_d' plan for His redemption of Israel as He has explained it by both the Old Testament Prophets and in the New Testament even from the mouth of Jesus? Have you no understanding of these things?

 
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parousia70

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Well with the Son of God living with them fulfilling the whole purpose of sacrifices in the Temple were supposed to teach the Jews and since scriptures saw when the Jews see the one they crucified all Israel will be converted in one day why would they continue to sacrifice???

So what then do you do with the passages I cited from Ezekiel 40-44?
Ignore them?
Redact them from your Bible?
Spiritualize them away into meaninglessness?

What?
 
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The Gryphon

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You are the one putting forth the contradictions... its not my job to reconcile them. It's yours.


I can not make a blind man see, or a deaf man hear, who's mind and heart are so hardened they will not even try.
 
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parousia70

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I can not make a blind man see, or a deaf man hear, who's mind and heart are so hardened they will not even try.

Nor can I it seems.....

Thankfully most of our readers can read our conversation and have their hearts spurred to search the scriptures for themselves.
 
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The Gryphon

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So what then do you do with the passages I cited from Ezekiel 40-44?
Ignore them?
Redact them from your Bible?
Spiritualize them away into meaninglessness?

What?

You cannot receive my words because your heart is stone.

Others here see, hear, and understand.
 
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parousia70

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You cannot receive my words because your heart is stone.

Others here see, hear, and understand.

Then do it for them, not for me.

Forget about me.
Use me and this conversation as a vehicle to reach them.
 
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The Gryphon

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Modern Israel, the Millennium, and Jesus' Second Coming

In the Old Testament, God promised Abraham that His descendants, the Jews, would inherit the land of Palestine (Genesis 12:7). Many people believe that this promise has never yet been fulfilled, but will be when Jesus comes again. So they view the progress of modern Israel as a sign that Jesus is about to return. The following is just a condensation of many of the concepts I have covered before from someone else's viewpoint.

The following can be found at: God’s Plan For Israel

In this chapter of Ezekiel God promises to regather the people of Israel from around the world and bring them back into their own land, “And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD … And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land” :)14, 21). Ezekiel’s prophetic vision of the valley of dry bones represents the scattered Jews and the devastation of the Land of Israel. The Land would become barren because God’s people would be driven from it to live amongst “the heathen” nations :)21). This prophecy therefore reveals the restoration of Israel, no longer scattered, but reunited in an Israeli state, “Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel” :)12).

The prophecy finds a initial and partial fulfilment under Ezra and Nehemiah, but it will only be fully realised at the end of time when the Messiah sets up His Millennial Reign. The parable of the “two sticks”, speaking of the reuniting of both Israel and Judah as one nation in Israel, has never found complete fulfilment since so many of the Jews remained in Babylon even after the Captivity was over. Therefore this whole chapter concerning the restoration of Israel cannot come to fruition until “David” reigns in Jerusalem, “And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever” :)24-25). Since the reference cannot be referring to King David who was long dead by the time this prophecy was given, it can only be seen as a fulfilment of God’s promise to David, “Therefore now, LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel” (1 Kings 8:25). We know that the Lord Jesus Christ was a descendant of King David, “The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David … Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh” (Matthew 1:1, Romans 1:3).

Before Israel’s Messiah can take His rightful place as King there must be both a land called Israel and a people to inhabit it. Though Satan failed to thwart Christ’s first coming as the Saviour of sinners, and the spiritual significance of it, he knows that the Messiah must reign as King in Jerusalem for a thousand years, therefore he has sought to hinder Christ’s Second Coming by destroying the Jews wherever and whenever possible. He hates the Jews and the Land. If he can destroy both then it is impossible for the Lord Jesus Christ to return.

After the destruction of the Land in 70 A.D. by the Romans and the subsequent dispersion of the Jews, Israel has either been desolate or controlled by the Arabs (later Moslems). Throughout the centuries since 70 A.D. Satan has raised up hatred against the Jews wherever they eventually settled. This hatred led to mass destruction of the Jewish people (ethnic cleansing) in all parts of Europe. Almost every nation on earth has a Jewish population that it has persecuted or driven out at some point. Especially in Europe the ill-treatment of Jews was often extreme. Some of the worst atrocities took place with Catholic countries, yet even in Protestant nations the Jews were downtrodden. For almost two thousand years the Jewish people have been displaced, faced crusaders, pogroms, and holocausts, all inspired by the devil to stop Christ’s return to earth.

It is very likely that Satan knew what was about to happen in Israel in 1948: if this is true then the Final Solution of Adolph Hitler was the main reason for World War Two. Though the world saw their own particular nations under threat on the physical level, the devil saw that his kingdom was fast coming to an end. Hitler may have been a premature Antichrist, used by Satan to establish his own 1,000 year Reich (reign). While it is right to remember the Holocaust of the Jews, we should not forget the devilish scheme behind it.

God promised that before the Messiah would come (the second time) that He would raise the Jews from their graves, “Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves” (Ezekiel 37:12-13). Because God’s word cannot fail to come true, it was impossible for the Jewish people or the Land of Israel to completely die out. In this prophecy we see a resurrection of His people and a restoration of their homeland. The intervening years between 70 A.D. and 1948 A.D. the hope of such a regathering was kept alive in their hearts. They would quote the oft used phrase “Next year in Jerusalem” to encourage this hope in each other.

Everything was (Satanically) in place to stop the Jews ever returning to their own land. The Jewish population of the world was greatly reduced and living in fear, the Moslems controlled the Land, and the Land itself had been renamed Palestine. After the second world war, when the Jews asked for a homeland, they were offered Uganda, but such a site would not fulfil God’s perfect will. What the world thought impossible happen in May 1948, the Jewish dream became a reality, and God’s word was proven faithful and true. Against all odds Israel became a nation again, “Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts” (Ezekiel 37:11). Since then, even against constant opposition, the Jews have been flowing into

Israel from almost every nation on earth, “And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all” :)21-22).

There remains a final act in this chapter to be completed, that is, the Millennial Reign of the Messiah the Lord Jesus Christ. He will not come until the moment the “times of the Gentiles” be fulfilled (Luke 21:24). We can be sure that He will come right on time just as with His first advent, “When the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son” (Galatians 4:4). The first part of Jesus’ prophecy has come to pass, “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations”, the second part is being fulfilled, “and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles”, the “until” will continue up to the time the Lord comes again, “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled”. As soon as these “times” come to an end Jerusalem will once again become “the city of the great King” (Psalm 48:2). Then will all Israel walk in the light and knowledge of God, “Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God … My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore” (Ezekiel 37:23, 27-28), then “will all Israel be saved” (Romans 11:25-27).
 
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The Gryphon

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GOD'S PLAN FOR ISRAEL, AND WHY IT MATTERS
by Sam Nadler


Israel Past: Chosen to Serve
Why did God choose Israel to begin with? People have speculated that perhaps God chose Israel because of our “communication skills” (so many Jewish comedians!); or our supposed “ability with money” (except in my family!), or even a new stereotype: because we’re all so good looking!

Nice try, but those who know me would never believe that! But, seriously, why did God choose Israel? God chose Israel, not because Israel was the greatest of peoples, but because we were, in fact, the least:

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
- Deuteronomy 7:6-8 -

Though God did choose Israel and called us to be priests to the nations (Exodus19:5,6), we were not the most spiritual of peoples, but rather, God calls us a “stiff-necked” people: Know, then, it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stubborn people (Deuteronomy 9:6).

Amazingly, God sovereignly chose to love Israel because of their weaknesses, in order to demonstrate this principle: His grace according to His promise is sufficient for any person to trust in for their own existence and fulfillment (see 1 Corinthians 1:26-30; 2 Corinthians 12:8-10). Thus we see why Israel was chosen: to be God’s instrument of love expressed to the entire world. This blessing of love and grace would be ultimately personified in Yeshua, the seed of Abraham, Messiah of Israel and Savior of the world (Genesis 12:3, Galatians 3:14; Romans 9:5).

Israel Present: Service Suspended
In Romans 11 Israel is typified as “natural branches” broken off of the “olive tree.” This olive tree is a picture of Israel’s service for God, as every part of the olive tree was used in Temple service (wood, oil, etc.). For the past two thousand years Israel’s spiritual service has been temporarily suspended, like a train is sidetracked while it undergoes repairs. At the present time, though the nation on the whole has rejected Him, there is a remnant of the Jewish people that do believe in Yeshua (Jesus): Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace (Romans 11:5). So what is happening now? Hardly a day goes by without some news of terrorism or warfare in Israel. Why? Rather than ‘occupying the land of Palestine’, Israel is simply endeavoring to survive in the very land promised and given to their forefathers by God Himself. And there’s the rub: Sinful, fallen man resents a holy God, and thus resents the very people who are a reminder of God’s existence. The propaganda and military war of terror against the only Jewish nation on earth is simply the outplay of the spiritual war headed by Satan himself. This Adversary of God and Man operates through the lives of lost people in an attempt to destroy Israel, which would thus negate God’s promises to Israel. But God will keep His promises, and though the Body of Messiah, made up of Jews and Gentiles, is presently God’s instrument of service in the world, one day Israel will be restored!

Israel Future: Service Restored
The Olive Tree also reminds of the restoration of Israel’s spiritual service for God. This restoration will occur at the end of the future Tribulation period, after the “times of the Gentiles” are fulfilled (Luke 21:24), and the nations led by the Anti-Messiah have ‘filled up’ their rebellion against God. In that day, the world’s attempt at a “Final Solution” regarding Israel and “those Jews” will be the catalyst for the Second Coming of Messiah, Who will then destroy His enemies at Armegeddon. (see Romans 11:25; Luke 21:24, Revelation 16:16). To all the nations of the earth God Himself has sternly warned, And it will come about in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:9). Unfortunately, man in his pride doesn’t believe God, and as David wrote in Psalm 2, they take their stand, and the rulers take counsel together against the LORD and against His Messiah. It is at the end of the Tribulation period, the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jeremiah 30:7), that surviving Israel will trust in Yeshua and be grafted back into the ‘olive tree’, even as Paul prophesied – and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob" (Romans 11:23-27). According to the prophet Zechariah, in the future, Israel will look unto Messiah, whom they have pierced (Zechariah 12:10), confess their sin of rejecting Him (see Isaiah 53), and at that time Israel will be cleansed of their sins through His atonement (Zechariah 13:1). Zechariah then states that the result of Israel’s “looking to Messiah” will be His return to planet Earth to rescue them, And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). This correlates perfectly with the New Covenant teaching that Messiah will not return until Israel repents nationally, as Yeshua said, Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’” (Matthew 23:38,39). In that day Israel’s repentance and trust in Yeshua will usher in the Messianic kingdom period declared by all of Israel’s prophets (Acts 3:19-22).

God is Faithful
Though the enemies of God have consistently attempted to destroy Israel to thwart the work and redemptive plan of God (see Psalm 83:1-6), through it all God has faithfully kept Israel even to this day! Understanding God’s plan for Israel helps all believers understand why Paul, the ‘Apostle to Gentiles’, always ministered to the Jews first. Paul knew that God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew (Romans 11:2), and Paul’s preaching to Israel was evidence of God’s faithfulness.

Since God has been faithful to His people - even though by and large they have not believed Him - we who have believed Him can have confidence of our salvation in Messiah Yeshua, for He who promised is faithful! In fact, your prayers and support of our work to bring the Good News to Jewish people around the world each month, and in Israel this month, is actually a living demonstration that you trust in God’s promises! Thanks, and please remember, Pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122:6).
 
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The Gryphon

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The Second Coming of Jesus Christ

Source: The Second Coming of Jesus Christ
Read all the information from the source above.

One only has to read a newspaper or listen to a newscast in order to see Bible prophecy being fulfilled. There have been more prophecies fulfilled in the twentieth century than in any other time in church history. We believe there is a great reason for this. We believe that the time is rapidly approaching for the Lord Jesus Christ to return to this earth and take the kingdoms of this world for Himself.

In this tract, we will attempt to show you from God's word the chronological order of future prophetic events. That is, we will attempt to TEACH you some basic Bible doctrine about the Second Coming. It is our prayer that you will read carefully through these pages, asking the Holy Spirit of God to lead and guide you through the truths in His word (Jhn. 16:13). Please check all Scripture references very carefully for a better understanding. May God richly bless your study.

 
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parousia70

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There have been more prophecies fulfilled in the twentieth century than in any other time in church history.

Name one.
One will do.
One that unequivocally, without any dissent within the ranks of Christendom, is universally understood in all the church as fulfilled by a 20th century event.

Like Christ hanging on the cross. No one disputes what prophesies that event fulfilled.
Name one 20th century event that fulfilled a prophesy that the church universally accepts a fulfilled in that 20th century event.

Take all the time you need.
Cite as many sources as you can.

For a fun side project, perhaps you might demonstrate for our readers who today is qualified to infallibly proclaim whether or not a particular modern day event is the fulfillment of prophesy.

The Bible lays that qualification squarely upon Jesus and his original apostles.

I am unaware of that qualification extending to anyone beyond them, but I’d be happy to examine any evidence you can provide to support it.
 
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The Gryphon

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Name one.
One will do.
One that unequivocally, without any dissent within the ranks of Christendom, is universally understood in all the church as fulfilled by a 20th century event.

Like Christ hanging on the cross. No one disputes what prophesies that event fulfilled.
Name one 20th century event that fulfilled a prophesy that the church universally accepts a fulfilled in that 20th century event.

Take all the time you need.
Cite as many sources as you can.

For a fun side project, perhaps you might demonstrate for our readers who today is qualified to infallibly proclaim whether or not a particular modern day event is the fulfillment of prophesy.

The Bible lays that qualification squarely upon Jesus and his original apostles.

I am unaware of that qualification extending to anyone beyond them, but I’d be happy to examine any evidence you can provide to support it.


I am not sure where you got that quote; if it was me actually saying it (as I sure do not recall saying such a thing) or it was in one of the articles I posted however I will answer you!

In Ezekiel 37:10-14, the prophet receives a vision in which Israel was seen as a scattering of dried-up bones. In this vision, God tells Ezekiel that the bones (Israel) would be brought back to life. Just as Ezekiel had prophesized about 2600 years ago, the Jews were brought back to the land, and the country of Israel was brought back to life. Israel re-established sovereignty in 1948, a mere three years after the end of the Holocaust, during which the Nazis killed about one-third of the world’s Jewish population.

Ezekiel 37:10-14
So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet--a vast army. Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

Isaiah spoke of a Israel being reborn in one day
Bible passage: Isaiah 66:7-8
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 1948

In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel in 1948. Isaiah describes a woman giving birth before going into labor, and he speaks of a country being born in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years.

During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel’s sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel was literally was born in a single day.

Isaiah said the birth would take place before there would be labor pains. And that too is precisely what happened. A movement called Zionism began in the 1800s to encourage Jews worldwide to move to Israel, which at that time was called Palestine. Within hours of the declaration of independence in 1948, Israel was attacked by the surrounding countries of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

When reading Isaiah 66:7-8, keep in mind that Israel’s status as a sovereign nation was established and reaffirmed during the course of a single day, and that it was born of a movement called Zionism, and that its declaration of independence was not the result of a war but rather the cause of one.

Isaiah 66:7-8
“Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.”

Israel would be re-established as a united nation
Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:21-22
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948

In Ezekiel 37:21-22, the prophet said that God would one day bring the people of Israel back to Israel, as a united nation. This might have been a shock for Ezekiel. He lived about 2600 years ago. At that time, the people of Israel had already divided themselves into two separate kingdoms. And, both kingdoms had been conquered by foreign invaders, who forced many of the people, including Ezekiel, into exile. But, when Jews reclaimed sovereignty in 1948, they did so as a united people, creating one nation - Israel.

Ezekiel 37:21-22
and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.

Ezekiel predicted when Israel would be re-established
Bible passage: Ezekiel 4:3-6
Written
: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948

In Ezekiel 4:3-6, the prophet said the Jews, who had lost control of their homeland, would be punished for 430 years. This prophecy, according to Bible scholar Grant Jeffrey, pinpointed the 1948 rebirth of Israel. Here’s a summary of Jeffrey’s theory:

  1. Ezekiel said the Jews were to be punished for 430 years because they had turned away from God. As part of the punishment, the Jews lost control of their homeland to Babylon. Many Jews were taken as captives to Babylon.
  2. Babylon was later conquered by Cyrus in 539 BC. Cyrus allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and to return to their homeland. But, only a small number returned. The return had taken place sometime around 536 BC, about 70 years after Judah lost independence to Babylon.
  3. Because most of the exiles chose to stay in pagan Babylon rather than return to the Holy Land, the remaining 360 years of their punishment was multiplied by 7. The reason is explained in Bible’s book of Leviticus. (Leviticus 26:18, Leviticus 26:21, Leviticus 26:24 and Leviticus 26:28). In Leviticus, it says that if the people did not repent while being punished, the punishment would be multiplied by 7. And, by staying in pagan Babylon, most exiles were refusing to repent.
  4. So, if you take the remaining 360 years of punishment and multiply by 7, you get 2,520 years. But, Jeffrey says those years are based on an ancient 360-day lunar calendar. If those years are adjusted to the modern solar calendar, the result is 2,484 years.
  5. And, there were exactly 2,484 years from 536 BC to 1948, which is the year that Israel regained independence.
The people of Israel would return to “their own land”
Bible passage: Ezekiel 34:13
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: after May 14, 1948

In Ezekiel 34:13, the prophet said that God would gather the people of Israel scattered throughout the world and bring them back to “their own land.” After many centuries of dispersion, hundreds of thousands of Jews returned to their ancient homeland beginning in the late 1800s. But, millions more returned after Israel declared independence in 1948. In other words, millions of exiles returned to their ancient homeland which was now truly “their own land” in the sense that it was now a sovereign Jewish state.

Ezekiel 34:13
I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.

The Star of David will be on the Israeli flag. Isaiah 11:10
The Hebrew language will be revived in Israel. Jeramiah 31:23
The Jewish people will come back in unbelief. Ezekiel 37:7-8,11

There are many more if you so desire.
 
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The Gryphon

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The Jewish Virtual Library
Jewish Virtual Library<click to view
For those that wish to learn more about Jews & Israel, Old Testament, New Testament, and Modern Israel there is a huge amount of information at the above internet library.
 
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parousia70

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I am not sure where you got that quote; if it was me actually saying it (as I sure do not recall saying such a thing) or it was in one of the articles I posted however I will answer you!

In Ezekiel 37:10-14, the prophet receives a vision in which Israel was seen as a scattering of dried-up bones. In this vision, God tells Ezekiel that the bones (Israel) would be brought back to life. Just as Ezekiel had prophesized about 2600 years ago, the Jews were brought back to the land, and the country of Israel was brought back to life. Israel re-established sovereignty in 1948, a mere three years after the end of the Holocaust, during which the Nazis killed about one-third of the world’s Jewish population.

Ezekiel 37:10-14
So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet--a vast army. Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

Isaiah spoke of a Israel being reborn in one day
Bible passage: Isaiah 66:7-8
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 1948

In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel in 1948. Isaiah describes a woman giving birth before going into labor, and he speaks of a country being born in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years.

During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel’s sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel was literally was born in a single day.

Isaiah said the birth would take place before there would be labor pains. And that too is precisely what happened. A movement called Zionism began in the 1800s to encourage Jews worldwide to move to Israel, which at that time was called Palestine. Within hours of the declaration of independence in 1948, Israel was attacked by the surrounding countries of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

When reading Isaiah 66:7-8, keep in mind that Israel’s status as a sovereign nation was established and reaffirmed during the course of a single day, and that it was born of a movement called Zionism, and that its declaration of independence was not the result of a war but rather the cause of one.

Isaiah 66:7-8
“Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.”

Israel would be re-established as a united nation
Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:21-22
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948

In Ezekiel 37:21-22, the prophet said that God would one day bring the people of Israel back to Israel, as a united nation. This might have been a shock for Ezekiel. He lived about 2600 years ago. At that time, the people of Israel had already divided themselves into two separate kingdoms. And, both kingdoms had been conquered by foreign invaders, who forced many of the people, including Ezekiel, into exile. But, when Jews reclaimed sovereignty in 1948, they did so as a united people, creating one nation - Israel.

Ezekiel 37:21-22
and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.

Ezekiel predicted when Israel would be re-established
Bible passage: Ezekiel 4:3-6
Written
: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948

In Ezekiel 4:3-6, the prophet said the Jews, who had lost control of their homeland, would be punished for 430 years. This prophecy, according to Bible scholar Grant Jeffrey, pinpointed the 1948 rebirth of Israel. Here’s a summary of Jeffrey’s theory:

  1. Ezekiel said the Jews were to be punished for 430 years because they had turned away from God. As part of the punishment, the Jews lost control of their homeland to Babylon. Many Jews were taken as captives to Babylon.
  2. Babylon was later conquered by Cyrus in 539 BC. Cyrus allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and to return to their homeland. But, only a small number returned. The return had taken place sometime around 536 BC, about 70 years after Judah lost independence to Babylon.
  3. Because most of the exiles chose to stay in pagan Babylon rather than return to the Holy Land, the remaining 360 years of their punishment was multiplied by 7. The reason is explained in Bible’s book of Leviticus. (Leviticus 26:18, Leviticus 26:21, Leviticus 26:24 and Leviticus 26:28). In Leviticus, it says that if the people did not repent while being punished, the punishment would be multiplied by 7. And, by staying in pagan Babylon, most exiles were refusing to repent.
  4. So, if you take the remaining 360 years of punishment and multiply by 7, you get 2,520 years. But, Jeffrey says those years are based on an ancient 360-day lunar calendar. If those years are adjusted to the modern solar calendar, the result is 2,484 years.
  5. And, there were exactly 2,484 years from 536 BC to 1948, which is the year that Israel regained independence.
The people of Israel would return to “their own land”
Bible passage: Ezekiel 34:13
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: after May 14, 1948

In Ezekiel 34:13, the prophet said that God would gather the people of Israel scattered throughout the world and bring them back to “their own land.” After many centuries of dispersion, hundreds of thousands of Jews returned to their ancient homeland beginning in the late 1800s. But, millions more returned after Israel declared independence in 1948. In other words, millions of exiles returned to their ancient homeland which was now truly “their own land” in the sense that it was now a sovereign Jewish state.

Ezekiel 34:13
I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.

The Star of David will be on the Israeli flag. Isaiah 11:10
The Hebrew language will be revived in Israel. Jeramiah 31:23
The Jewish people will come back in unbelief. Ezekiel 37:7-8,11

There are many more if you so desire.

But today's Jews have no verifiable relationship to the pre desolation Hebrew people.
That hurdle is insurmountable for folks in your position making the claims you do.

They don't have the same genetics, they don't have the same religion, they don't have the same politics.

Todays Jews are a multi-ethnic conglomeration of peoples who follow the post-Christain religion of the Babylonian Talmud. They do not Follow Moses or the Law and do not have the Ancient Hebrew's Bloodlines.

Australia has just as much authority to claim that THEY are the reconstitution of the Biblical Israel...

The Mormons have just as much authority to claim that THEY are the reconstitution of Biblical Israel (and they Do make just that claim)

Besides, I asked you to demonstrate a prophesy that ALL of Christendom agrees was fulfilled in the 20th century.

You have failed to do that thusfar...

But you can keep trying. I'll be posting here, God willing, for at least another decade or more. I can wait.
 
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parousia70

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Here's what I know to be true.

In the Old Testament era, Israel was that nation of men that descended from Abraham through his sons, Isaac and Jacob (Gen 17:19; 21:9-12). Jacob was renamed "Israel" (Gen 32:28), and from Jacob came twelve sons who became patriarchs of twelve tribes, or families, of Abraham's descendants. These families famously became known as the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Though the most visible component of Israel's identity was familial and marked in the flesh with the mark of circumcision (Gen 17:10-11), from the earliest times certain foreigners sojourned among the Hebrew tribes and began following the Hebrew religion and way of life. These gentile migrants lacked the ancestral link to Abraham that the natural-born descendants possssed, but they nevertheless were permitted to be circumcised (Gen 17:11-13) and assimilated fully into the native-born people of God by way of conversion:

"If a man from another country is living with you, and has a desire to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all the males of his family undergo circumcision, and then let him come near and keep it; for he will then be as one of your people; but no one without circumcision may keep it. The law is the same for him who is an Israelite by birth and for the man from a strange country who is living with you." (Ex 12:48-49)

Gentiles who converted to the Hebrew religion in this way and sojourned among the tribes of Israel were grafted into the people of God and given full status as true Israelites. Many such naturalized citizens existed among the members of Israel, though the natural-born sons of Abraham always comprised a majority of the citizenry.

While racial descent from Abraham (through Isaac and Jacob, "Israel") was central to identifying the members of Israel in Old Testament times, God made it clear that all Israelites who disobeyed His covenant would be "cut off" from among the true people of God:
"He who is born in your house...must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. The uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant." (Gen 17:13-14)

Soon it became clear that other violations of the covenant also served to "cut off" individuals from among the people of God (Lev 18:29; Num 15:30-31; Ex 12:15,19; Ex 31:14; Lev 7:20-27; Lev 23:28-30). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham. This practice of exclusion from the covenant society continued down to Ezra's time (Ezra 10:8) and even to Christ's day (Jn 9:22; Jn 12:42; Mt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:1-2,5,11-13).

In reality, conformity to God's covenantal commands, above all else, determined one's status as a member of Israel. Put another way, a person's identity with Israel was derived from and maintained by obedience----for the natural-born citizen's privilege as Israel could be nullified through disobedience, and the foreigner's status as an alien of Israel could be removed through obedience.

At times the issue of obedience became paramount for the nation of Israel. Scripture records numerous apostasies by--and subsequent excommunications of--seditious sons of Abraham. Examples may be multipled: God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45); In Isaiah's day, apostasy became so rampant that Israel continued to exist through a small but faithful remnant (Isa 10:22-23; Isa 1:7-9; Rom 9:27-29); In Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that faithful Israel narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4). Lastly, at the close of the Old Testamental age, Israel was again reduced to a small remnant of faithful elect ones (Rom 11:5). The Jewish Pharisees and temple rulers grew wicked to the point of killing God's holy Messiah and apostles (1 Thess 2:14-16), and throngs wanted Caesar as king instead of Messiah, the son of David (Jn 19:15). Then as in times past, true Israel survived and continued on through the faithful sons, while the unfaithful apostates were "cut off" from among the people.

The severe sedition and schism that took place in Christ's generation between the faithful sons and the disobedient brothers was not without warning. As St. Peter testified to his contemporary Jewish brethren:
"For Moses said: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me: him you shall hear according to all things whatsoever he shall speak to you. And it shall be, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.And all the prophets, from Samuel and afterwards, who have spoken, have told of these days." (Acts 3:22-24)

THIS is exactly what happened in the first century.

As Moses and St. Peter had forewarned, the wicked sons of Israel of that generation were dramatically cut off at the destruction of Jerusalem, at AD 66-70. The disobedient sons received many dire warnings from Jesus the Messiah:
"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...you are the sons of them that killed the prophets. Fill up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? Behold, you house shall be left to you, desolate" (Matt 23:29,33-38)

Again the Messiah predicted the imminent destruction of the rebellious sons:
When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." (Luke 19:41-44)

As a testimony to God's providential care for his faithful remnant, the obedient sons of Abraham were miraculously spared and protected while the wicked sons were judged and destroyed from among the people. Addresing his beloved apostles and followers, Jesus said:
"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles" (Luke 21:20-22).

Once the faithful nation of God's elect were miraculously protected, the doom predicted for wicked brothers would commence. As Jesus forewarned:
"When therefore the Lord therefore of the vineyard comes, what will he do unto those vine-growers? They said unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will rent out his vineyard unto other vine-growers, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus said unto them, Did you never read in the scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, this became the chief corner stone: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?' Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits of it. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Mt 21:40-45)

And so true Israel---the sons of Abraham who followed the Messiah, as manifested by Providence and by history---was again preserved during a time of national apostasy and tribulation. As was the case in former times with Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah, countless apostates were cut off from among the people. But God's elect Israel, the faithful remnant, triumphed and continued on, spreading the good news of the Kingdom of God to the entire world, in and through the Jewish Church.

Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).
 
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But today's Jews have no verifiable relationship to the pre desolation Hebrew people.
That hurdle is insurmountable for folks in your position making the claims you do.

They don't have the same genetics, they don't have the same religion, they don't have the same politics.

Todays Jews are a multi-ethnic conglomeration of peoples who follow the post-Christain religion of the Babylonian Talmud. They do not Follow Moses or the Law and do not have the Ancient Hebrew's Bloodlines.

Australia has just as much authority to claim that THEY are the reconstitution of the Biblical Israel...

The Mormons have just as much authority to claim that THEY are the reconstitution of Biblical Israel (and they Do make just that claim)

Besides, I asked you to demonstrate a prophesy that ALL of Christendom agrees was fulfilled in the 20th century.

You have failed to do that thusfar...

But you can keep trying. I'll be posting here, God willing, for at least another decade or more. I can wait.

You really don't know the Bible or ignore its words. My answer to ridiculous statements can be refuted by a simple reading of the Bible and my previous posts that you keep ignoring. I see no point in continuing to answer what has already been answered over and over.

I posted prophecies that were fulfilled in the twentieth century, I can not help that you lack the understanding to read comprehend them.
 
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