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I actually give the perspective in my opening post....the exact answer that you're asking for.
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If Water Baptism Saves, Then Explain What Happened To Me!
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I like what you have done, but of course, I don't agree with the baptism aspect, but I really do appreciate your work. I know that doing what you have done requires a lot of thought and time. Therefore, I give you a full thumbs up! Most people don't' do what you're doing, and that makes a huge difference.
I'm not going to pick on your doctrine more than I have, so this next challenge is not to pick on you, but to see what you think of my thoughts. One question and then I'll address your response.
Do you think that if all a person had was the Gospel of Mark, does Mark contain enough of the Gospel that it could save a soul?
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It's post #1.
"The bible teaches that we will not go on sinning. The Bible talks about turning from sin and sinning no more. It talks about becoming Holy and Righteous. The bible talks about a transformation and learning how to view life in a whole new way (Romans 12:2). When we change and become the best we can be, then we know that we are children of God. Our changed lives prove who we are and where we are eternally headed.
So how is it possible, that after water baptism, which saves, how is it that I could become a complete and total monster, negatively effecting thousands of people throughout my life post baptism?"
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My charge against any church "leadership" is so heavy and intense in my post, that people are finding themselves offended. I understand. I find it offensive that nearly every "Christian" is being handed a false gospel which cannot save. That is something worth being offended about.
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HTacianas
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I remember now.
As I said, baptism does not make you a robot. You can still exercise your own will, even after baptism. If that were not possible we wouldn't be warned against it so many times, whether that be willfully sinning or apostasy.
If you get baptized and go immediately out and steal something it means you are not doing your part. If anything other were true we would have no need for confession after baptism.
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ICONO'CLAST
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We do not "attain ".....Jesus did a perfect work on behalf of His people. He finished it...Heb 5:9.... you cannot add to a perfect work...Heb10:10-14.
HTC, do you see this...? We work only as He works in us,phil2, phil3..
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And we're back to square one. Sorry that I am not doing a better job of explaining.
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HTacianas
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2Pe 1:5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,
2Pe 1:6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
2Pe 1:7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;
2Pe 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
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Let me try to explain how God works through us. I was about to die in the Arizona desert several years ago, having some sort of evil attack. Aneurism or heart attack was assured. Shorting the story: Filled with a terror that human words cannot express, knowing fully that I was going to die, I called out one name, I called out to my God and He delivered. I mentioned that human words cannot describe the terror I had felt....double that for trying to explain what I had just experienced. I can't, really. I could say so much, here, but the point that needs to be made is that God's Power was so awesome, had He shared more, I would have been harmed in some physical way. This unearthly Power, which I knew was God, announced by a peace and love indescribable, left me trembling with fear. But this is a righteous and holy fear, for I was not afraid that He would harm me, as he JUST saved me! But His Power is so utterly incredible, (of which I only felt equivalent to a flake of His skin), that I find that there is simply NO WAY that I would ever contend with Him. I realized that He could vaporize me in a nanosecond. No problem. Why would I say no to a Power that could not only do that, but JUST saved my life (after I just sacrificed my own life to save another who was threatened with murder by mutilation). No way! This is a God that is real. For I tasted hell as I was under attack, but God is more Powerful!
As soon as I tasted hell, and as soon as I tasted the smallest fleck of God's Power, which nearly altered me, that was it! I was done fighting! From that moment on, I have been slowly getting better and better and better. My sin did not instantly disappear, but wow, I have given up everything so that I could give to those, and work for those who cannot help or defend themselves. I have completely turned, not because I want to receive something, but because God has already given....first on the Cross, and then again in the Arizona desert. I have been a fool, not recognizing the incredible opportunity that I have had. I didn't have to be here! But this Power envisioned each of us, and He liked what He saw, and here we are. That's how Powerful this God is, so who would mess around with that? I cannot go on sinning as I once habitually did.
I submit to all, that those who have felt this Power, you KNOW that much of the talk in this thread is pure fodder. The raw Power explains so much.
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH
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Yes I do.
Some people only have a small piece of the truth. For example there are some people who have only received the book of Matthew, that is all the light and truth that they have ever known. If they obey everything from the book of Matthew(the Truth they have received) they will be saved. Because they have followed from the Heart the from of Doctrine/truth delivered unto them(Romans 6:17-18).
But we know there is so much more than Matthew to be received and so much more truth and knowledge to bring us closer to God and the Full truth of his word. So lets say the same people received the book of Acts and they believed it was true then they are still saved but are now stronger in the Faith for having more truth but if they deny acts and accept Matthew they are damned for denying truth that was brought to them. So every man is judged by what he has received so those who have died without knowing the true name or having only received the book of Matthew(for example) are saved because they believed wholeheartedly the truth that was given to them and did not have access to the Whole Truth/Correct Name. But they did not have the whole truth and were therefore weaker in the Faith because of it, making it easier to be deceived.
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The Power is not in the water, it is the Holy Spirit. Maybe that is why.
Water baptism is only a confirmation that you believe but it is not what works in the believers life. It is the fruit of the believer by the leading of the Holy Spirit that shows you and others you are filled with the Spirit. With the continual process of sanctification
the believer will become more like Christ.
This IS what you are looking for correct?
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My friend, you have taught me something new! You have no idea of how happy I am, that someone here actually taught me something that is reasonable and rational. Thank you so, so much!
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH
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LoveofTruth
Christ builds His church from within us
If you examine the text in 1 Peter 3:21 closely you will see that the saving baptism is not the putting away of the filth or that is to not the outward washing of the body but it is an inward work where the conscience has a witness as we are risen with Christ. Conscience is the key word read Hebrews 9 about conscience you will see the conscience could not be made clean by washings (baptism) only by the blood of Christ through the Spirit as Hebrews 9 says also
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This really is an incredible thing that you've written. I like the style and phrasing. Great job. So I have been thinking about this for hours and hours both last night and most of the day today.
Considering the list of passages and "requirements", as we say, did you find that this teaching above caused any issues in your mind? I ask because I, too, am working on a document (BSOCS) that deals specifically with the essentials of belief in a brochure format. But considering your idea, I am struggling with creating a list of "requirements" for salvation to be met. I can see that, well, if what you're saying is true, this list of both mine and yours would be in error, almost as if a burden to those less informed. I hope this concern of mine made sense. Your thoughts, please? Thank you much.
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