We’re Ready to Rebuild the Third Temple

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Dave L

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What significance is there to having a third temple in Jerusalem? Jerusalem is to be trodden down of the gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. And Jesus clearly teaches we are to preach the gospel to all nations [gentiles] until the end of the world.

So this makes the broken off unbelieving Jews of Romans 11 out to be gentiles to whom we are to include and preach to among the nations. So any temple has zero prophetic significance.
 
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The Gryphon

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What significance is there to having a third temple in Jerusalem? Jerusalem is to be trodden down of the gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. And Jesus clearly teaches we are to preach the gospel to all nations [gentiles] until the end of the world.

So this makes the broken off unbelieving Jews of Romans 11 out to be gentiles to whom we are to include and preach to among the nations. So any temple has zero prophetic significance.

You read the Bible others like me have explained the reasoning to you but you just refuse to accept it. The Prophets explain it in the Old Testament to be fulfilled on the New Testament. Yeshua has, is and will upon His Second Coming continue to fulfill G_d's plan just as it is written in the Bible. The temple has all the significance G_d gave it in His word no matter you say or believe. It is His Plan and His Word to be fulfilled as not all prophecy has been fulfilled.
 
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Dave L

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You read the Bible others like me have explained the reasoning to you but you just refuse to accept it. The Prophets explain it in the Old Testament to be fulfilled on the New Testament. Yeshua has, is and will upon His Second Coming continue to fulfill G_d's plan just as it is written in the Bible. The temple has all the significance G_d gave it in His word no matter you say or believe. It is His Plan and His Word to be fulfilled as not all prophecy has been fulfilled.
Doesn't this ignore the NT and Jesus' redefining OT terms for us? If he says the kingdom is spiritual, how can it be physical?
 
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The Gryphon

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Doesn't this ignore the NT and Jesus' redefining OT terms for us? If he says the kingdom is spiritual, how can it be physical?

I really feel sorry for you because you are so blinded. No it does not. You are as blinded to what I am saying as The Jews were to Jesus' message because you have only one idea set in your mind and you refuse to see anything but that. Yeshua fulfilled the blood offering the Law required the Jews to offer for their sins every year. The Jews rejection of their Messiah allowed salvation for the Gentiles as even Jesus said He came to the Jews FIRST. If the Jews had recognized their Messiah and accepted Him all non-Jews would still be bound for Hell without salvation. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law NOT CHANGE IT! The Law requires the SHEDDING OFF BLOOD FOR THE FORGIVNESS OF SINS! Jesus shed His blood as a sacrifice that once and for all paid the bill for ALL MANKINDS SINS as required under the LAW. Don't you get it? That is how we gentiles gained salvation. Again if the Jews had accepted Jesus as there SAVIOR we gentiles would still be DAMNED! The Kingdom is BOTH Spiritual and Physical! You have to be born again in Spirit to have everlasting life however you do not stop living as a physical being. The Bible talks about upon Jesus Second Coming He will establish His Physical reign on this physical earth for a 1000 years while Satan is bound in the pit for that 1000 so he can not tempt those that are born during that time. All that live under Jesus' reign on earth will live under the Son of God and His personal teachings. At the end of that 1000 years Satan will be loosed to temp all those that have studied under Jesus' Reign. Scripture says the fast majority will fall away. That is the time when the old earth, old heaven pass away and the New Earth, New Heaven, and New Jerusalem descend. That is the cliff note version of events.
 
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Dave L

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I really feel sorry for you because you are so blinded. No it does not. You are as blinded to what I am saying as The Jews were to Jesus' message because you have only one idea set in your mind and you refuse to see anything but that. Yeshua fulfilled the blood offering the Law required the Jews to offer for their sins every year. The Jews rejection of their Messiah allowed salvation for the Gentiles as even Jesus said He came to the Jews FIRST. If the Jews had recognized their Messiah and accepted Him all non-Jews would still be bound for Hell without salvation. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law NOT CHANGE IT! The Law requires the SHEDDING OFF BLOOD FOR THE FORGIVNESS OF SINS! Jesus shed His blood as a sacrifice that once and for all paid the bill for ALL MANKINDS SINS as required under the LAW. Don't you get it? That is how we gentiles gained salvation. Again if the Jews had accepted Jesus as there SAVIOR we gentiles would still be DAMNED! The Kingdom is BOTH Spiritual and Physical! You have to be born again in Spirit to have everlasting life however you do not stop living as a physical being. The Bible talks about upon Jesus Second Coming He will establish His Physical reign on this physical earth for a 1000 years while Satan is bound in the pit for that 1000 so he can not tempt those that are born during that time. All that live under Jesus' reign on earth will live under the Son of God and His personal teachings. At the end of that 1000 years Satan will be loosed to temp all those that have studied under Jesus' Reign. Scripture says the fast majority will fall away. That is the time when the old earth, old heaven pass away and the New Earth, New Heaven, and New Jerusalem descend. That is the cliff note version of events.
Jesus and the Church are God’s Temple according to the NT. “Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.” (John 2:19–21) (KJV 1900)

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” (1 Corinthians 3:16) (KJV 1900)

And the Kingdom was present as Jesus preached it. “But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.” (Luke 11:20) (KJV 1900)

It is spiritual and will never exist physically in this world. “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

Doesn't this group and other similar passages make a physical kingdom impossible?
 
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Dave L

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Goodbye Dave!
Thanks for sharing what you know and for challenging my beliefs. It's an age old debate between Amillennialism and Premillennialism. And to a lesser degree Dispensationalism. But rewarding just the same.
 
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Dave L said in post #119:

So this makes the broken off unbelieving Jews of Romans 11 out to be gentiles to whom we are to include and preach to among the nations.

No, for they are still genetic Jews (Romans 11:1, Romans 9:3-5). And Jesus Christ's Gospel of salvation goes to Jews first (Romans 1:16, Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24, Acts 3:26, Romans 15:8), and salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22b), because salvation is of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Christian Gentiles are grafted into Israel so that they can partake of the salvation offered by God to Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16). And all Christians, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

*******

Dave L said in post #121:

If he says the kingdom is spiritual, how can it be physical?

How can obedient, physical Christians be called "spiritual" (Galatians 6:1)? Because they can be both at the same time.

It's the same way with the Kingdom. It will be both, in the future (e.g. Luke 22:30). See the "kingdom" part of post #99 above.

For the Millennium will begin after Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when He will reign physically on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (of all times) for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4). During the Millennium, Jesus will place obedient Christians over cities (Luke 19:17-19) and nations (Revelation 2:26-29) and political divisions within nations (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30), while Jesus will be King of kings (Revelation 19:16) over the entire earth (Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11), reigning in the earthly Jerusalem (Micah 4:1-8,13, Zechariah 14:8-21).

Isaiah 19 and Isaiah 11:6-16 are also examples of Millennial scriptures.

Note that there are at least eight Biblical reasons to read the 1,000 years (the Millennium) of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the second through sixth seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the sixth seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the seventh seal will be unsealed, and out of it will come the Tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the seventh trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the future Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the Tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the seven vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus Christ's Second Coming will occur right after the seventh-and-last vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and He will rapture (gather together) and marry the Church at that time (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Then Jesus Himself will completely defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

-

Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 are when Satan will be literally bound with a chain and cast into and locked within the literal Bottomless Pit, whereas currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years cannot have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' Second Coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan will not be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), whereas currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years cannot have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and his False Prophet, and all of the armies of the world, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original-Greek manuscripts. So Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil on the earth will be defeated at Jesus' Second Coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus Christ and the bodily resurrected Church reigning first on the present earth (not the New Earth) after His future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present earth (not the New Earth) after His Second Coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 cannot be referring to the New Earth (of Revelation 21:1-3), because Zechariah 14:8-21 refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the New Earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 cannot be referring to the New Earth, because it refers to surviving non-Christians from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the Millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the New Earth, as in a new surface for the earth, all non-Christians from the present earth will have been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the physical resurrection of the Church will occur at the Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety only to physical resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (that is, all of the non-Church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the Church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead will not be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Eighth, reading the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the "first resurrection" will include those in the Church who will have been beheaded by the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the "first resurrection" cannot have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' Second Coming, when He will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

*******

Dave L said in post #123:

Jesus and the Church are God’s Temple according to the NT.

But so were and are other things at the same time. See posts #34 and #36 above.

Dave L said in post #123:

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

Note that John 3:3 can include the future Millennium. For the original Greek word (eido: G1492) translated as "see" in John 3:3 does not have to mean to physically see, or to physically enter, but can mean to spiritually "understand", just as it does in 1 Corinthians 14:16.

John 3:3 is not contradicting that some non-Christians will enter the Millennium. For those "left" where they are at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include non-Christians who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the future Millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These non-Christians will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected Church during the Millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the Millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).
 
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Dave L

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No, for they are still genetic Jews (Romans 11:1, Romans 9:3-5). And Jesus Christ's Gospel of salvation goes to Jews first (Romans 1:16, Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24, Acts 3:26, Romans 15:8), and salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22b), because salvation is of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Christian Gentiles are grafted into Israel so that they can partake of the salvation offered by God to Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16). And all Christians, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

*******



How can obedient, physical Christians be called "spiritual" (Galatians 6:1)? Because they can be both at the same time.

It's the same way with the Kingdom. It will be both, in the future (e.g. Luke 22:30). See the "kingdom" part of post #99 above.

For the Millennium will begin after Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when He will reign physically on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (of all times) for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4). During the Millennium, Jesus will place obedient Christians over cities (Luke 19:17-19) and nations (Revelation 2:26-29) and political divisions within nations (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30), while Jesus will be King of kings (Revelation 19:16) over the entire earth (Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11), reigning in the earthly Jerusalem (Micah 4:1-8,13, Zechariah 14:8-21).

Isaiah 19 and Isaiah 11:6-16 are also examples of Millennial scriptures.

Note that there are at least eight Biblical reasons to read the 1,000 years (the Millennium) of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the second through sixth seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the sixth seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the seventh seal will be unsealed, and out of it will come the Tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the seventh trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the future Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the Tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the seven vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus Christ's Second Coming will occur right after the seventh-and-last vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and He will rapture (gather together) and marry the Church at that time (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Then Jesus Himself will completely defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

-

Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 are when Satan will be literally bound with a chain and cast into and locked within the literal Bottomless Pit, whereas currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years cannot have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' Second Coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan will not be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), whereas currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years cannot have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and his False Prophet, and all of the armies of the world, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original-Greek manuscripts. So Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil on the earth will be defeated at Jesus' Second Coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus Christ and the bodily resurrected Church reigning first on the present earth (not the New Earth) after His future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present earth (not the New Earth) after His Second Coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 cannot be referring to the New Earth (of Revelation 21:1-3), because Zechariah 14:8-21 refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the New Earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 cannot be referring to the New Earth, because it refers to surviving non-Christians from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the Millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the New Earth, as in a new surface for the earth, all non-Christians from the present earth will have been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the physical resurrection of the Church will occur at the Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety only to physical resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (that is, all of the non-Church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the Church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead will not be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Eighth, reading the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the Church at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the "first resurrection" will include those in the Church who will have been beheaded by the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the "first resurrection" cannot have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' Second Coming, when He will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

*******



But so were and are other things at the same time. See posts #34 and #36 above.



Note that John 3:3 can include the future Millennium. For the original Greek word (eido: G1492) translated as "see" in John 3:3 does not have to mean to physically see, or to physically enter, but can mean to spiritually "understand", just as it does in 1 Corinthians 14:16.

John 3:3 is not contradicting that some non-Christians will enter the Millennium. For those "left" where they are at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include non-Christians who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the future Millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These non-Christians will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected Church during the Millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the Millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Here's the catch; Circumcision made one a physical Jew and member of Israel. Blood did not. Even family members were "cut off" from Israel if not circumcised.

“And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14) (KJV 1900)

And Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross.

So Cut off = gentile

So today's broken off Jews might have some of Abraham's DNA, and God will reattach any of these who accept Christ Romans 11:23. But those who remain cut off are under God's wrath until the end of time.

“forbidding us to speak to the nations that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always, but the anger did come upon them—to the end!” (1 Thessalonians 2:16) (YLT)

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36) (KJV 1900)
 
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Nige55

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Here's the catch; Circumcision made one a physical Jew and member of Israel. Blood did not. Even family members were "cut off" from Israel if not circumcised.

“And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14) (KJV 1900)

And Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross.

So Cut off = gentile

So today's broken off Jews might have some of Abraham's DNA, and God will reattach any of these who accept Christ Romans 11:23. But those who remain cut off are under God's wrath until the end of time.

“forbidding us to speak to the nations that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always, but the anger did come upon them—to the end!” (1 Thessalonians 2:16) (YLT)

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36) (KJV 1900)

Be patient (don't assume that he that believeth not in the Son will remain so) - "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in" Romans 11:25
The hardening has been part of Gods plan, he will carry out the rest of his plan for them :)
 
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Dave L

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Be patient (don't assume that he that believeth not in the Son will remain so) - "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in" Romans 11:25
When does the times of the gentiles end? Since Christ abolished circumcision, aren't all physical Jews gentiles by default? Will the broken off be reunited to Israel only by faith in Christ? Doesn't this make Christ and believers Israel?
 
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Yekcidmij, I see you are a Calvinist and I note that Calvinism is of Jewish origin. Calvin’s real name was Cohen. When he went from Geneva to France he became known as Cauin. Then in England it became Calvin. At the B’nai B’rith celebrations held in Paris, France, in 1936, Calvin, was enthusiastically acclaimed to have been of Jewish descent.

Not sure why this is relevant.

So what is your personal position on Israel and rebuilding of new current Temple in Israel?

Not sure why this is relevant either. What do you mean by "personal position on Israel?" As far as constructing a temple, I really don't care one way or another. I'm fine with just letting them and their neighbors work out that king of thing themselves; I have no skin in the game. I would rather not see rioting and killing, so I hope they work it out among themselves in a peaceful way.
 
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Yekcidmij

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Then do you believe that the apostles originally addressed in Matthew 24 saw Jesus Christ's Second Coming in Matthew 24:29-31?

I think that "coming on the clouds" is a coming of judgment, which happened on Jerusalem and Israel in AD 66-73.

Note that the new information is that the "buildings" in Matthew 24:1-2 can include the Wailing Wall.

But it doesn't necessitate it. I think you just have to consider the style of speaking and consider that it's an idiomatic expression or hyperbolic speaking and he's talking about the temple, not retaining walls.

The connection is that nothing requires that the "not one stone" idea of Matthew 24:2 is hyperbole, just as nothing requires that the "not one" ideas in Romans 3:12, Luke 12:6, and Matthew 18:10 are hyperbole.

Looks like different styles of speaking and writing to me. So i don't see the "requirement."
 
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Romans 11

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me” a ? 4And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” b 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.


7What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day.” c

9And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.” d
Ingrafted Branches


11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Will Be Saved

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way e all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.


27And this is f my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” g


28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now h receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
 
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Not sure why this is relevant.



Not sure why this is relevant either. What do you mean by "personal position on Israel?" As far as constructing a temple, I really don't care one way or another. I'm fine with just letting them and their neighbors work out that king of thing themselves; I have no skin in the game. I would rather not see rioting and killing, so I hope they work it out among themselves in a peaceful way.


As a Christian, that is if you are one and I assume you are, has certain responsibilities as Jesus has charged us all. We gentiles have salvation only because the majority of the Jews rejected Jesus as their messiah.

Romans 11:7-15

"What then? That which Israel seeks for, that he didn't obtain, but the chosen ones obtained it, and the rest were hardened. According as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this very day." David says, "Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, a stumbling block, and a retribution to them. Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see. Bow down their back always." I ask then, did they stumble that they might fall? May it never be! But by their fall salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? For I speak to you who are Gentiles. Since then as I am an apostle to Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh, and may save some of them. For if the rejection of them is the reconciling of the world, what would their acceptance be, but life from the dead?".

Read all of Romans 11 - because it is about G_d's plan for Israel according to the Apostle Paul and we as Christians have a charge to reach the whole world and are not Jews and Israel part of the whole world?

The Bible speaks about the Temples of Israel and how they play their part in the Plan of G_d, which to me anyway, should be important to every Christian.
 
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Yekcidmij

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As a Christian, that is if you are one and I assume you are, has certain responsibilities as Jesus has charged us all.

I must have missed the responsibility to personally support the rebuilding of a temple structure in Jerusalem.

Read all of Romans 11 -


Because you think I have never read all of Rom 11 before? Should I be as insulting to you or just let the comment go?

The Bible speaks about the Temples of Israel and how they play their part in the Plan of G_d, which to me anyway, should be important to every Christian.

Well, I believe the Church is the Temple as that's where God's Spirit on earth dwells, so I wouldn't disagree with your statement.
 
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I must have missed the responsibility to personally support the rebuilding of a temple structure in Jerusalem.



Because you think I have never read all of Rom 11 before? Should I be as insulting to you or just let the comment go?

Answer: I think perhaps you lack a full understanding of Romans 11 from the statements you make. If you take it as an insult then that is on you. You keep making factually incorrect statements so I keep pointing out scripture that contradicts your statements. If you don't like the Bible verses take it up with G_d.


Well, I believe the Church is the Temple as that's where God's Spirit on earth dwells, so I wouldn't disagree with your statement.

In your statement just above you state only a half-truth. We as individuals are the dwelling place of the Lord as is the Church. The Holy Spirit Dwells within us however you ignore G_d's plan as recorded in the Bible to reclaim His Chosen people and Fulfill His Everlast Covenant as He Swore to do and is described in the Bible because so many Christians think they have replaced the Jews totally in contradiction to what the Bible says. That is exactly what the Apostle Paul was writing about in Chapter 11 of Romans to those Christians who were not getting this in Paul's time. .
 
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Dave L said in post #130:

So today's broken off Jews might have some of Abraham's DNA, and God will reattach any of these who accept Christ Romans 11:23. But those who remain cut off are under God's wrath until the end of time.

Regarding Romans 11:23-29, note that there the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who are not genetic Jews like the apostle Paul (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual, genetic Jewish Christians (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile Christians (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become Christians, they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind, while others are not (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25), in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect, genetic Jews who are not yet Christians (Romans 11:28), but who will become Christians eventually (Romans 11:26).

When the apostle Paul says: "until the fulness (pleroma: G4138) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of Gentile individuals have become Christians, which will not happen until near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30); just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" will not be "fulfilled (pleroo: G4137)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the second half of the future Tribulation.

Immediately after the future Tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus Christ Himself from heaven (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all of the still-living, unsaved, elect Jews will be ashamed, and weep, and become Christians, when they see Jesus, and realize that He truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the Church at that time, just as when Jews become Christians now they become part of the Church. For there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the Jews who will become Christians at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will all become part of the Church by receiving some measure of God's Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as Jewish Christians today become part of the Church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both Jewish and Gentile Christians become part of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the Jews who will become Christians at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming had been religious Jews, they will not continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus Christ's Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52) of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the second covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

Also, the fullness of the Gentiles coming in during the future Tribulation does not mean that no Gentiles will be added to the Church during the subsequent Millennium, because they will be (Isaiah 66:19-20). For "fullness" does not have to mean "no more after that". For example, even after a cup has been filled with wine, more wine can be added to it, so that the "cup runneth over" (Psalms 23:5b). Also, it does not matter that the new Christians during the Millennium will be added to the Church/bride (of Ephesians 4:4-6, Ephesians 5:30-32) after the marriage of the Church to Jesus Christ occurred at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:7). For as many husbands have discovered, a bride can increase in size sometime after her wedding.
 
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