'Devil's Advocate' for Amillenialism

ewq1938 · Nov 11, 2018

I asked when Rev 19 took place not who the harlot is.

Maria Billingsley said:
It depends on ones "lens" so you will probably disagree. First we need to identify the "harlot".

Isaiah 1:21
How the faithful city has become a harlot!
It was full of justice;
Righteousness lodged in it,
But now murderers.

ewq1938 · Nov 11, 2018

LastSeven said:
Ephesians 2:6
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

Paul here literally says that we were resurrected and placed in a position of authority along with Christ. This is the resurrection and reigning of the saints.

That is symbolic not literal and has nothing to do with beheaded people being judged and coming back to life to reign with Christ in an actual and literal reign.

ewq1938 · Nov 11, 2018

LastSeven said:
Please explain to me how the first resurrection in Revelation 20 could not possibly be this same resurrection spoken of in these verses?

Because Rev 20 shows people who had their heads cut off in the GT coming back to life. That is the first resurrection meaning the dead in Christ rising/resurrecting first. You are confusing a spiritual resurrection with Rev 20's physical/bodily resurrection.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Everyone agrees verse 5 is speaking of a group of people who shall be physically resurrected. They don't resurrect at the same time the beheaded group resurrects simply because the beheaded are saved people who resurrect to immortality but the second group resurrects to damnation a thousand years later. Both groups resurrect physically. Changing the first groups resurrection to a spiritual resurrection is to change what is presented in Rev 20 about both groups.

DavidPT · Nov 11, 2018

DreamerOfTheHeart said:
Foreward: Using the colloquial term here, not to be too challenging, of 'considering criticially a viewpoint other then one's own. I lean heavily towards pre-millenialism, and the major reason I am opening discussions on the subject is to have my own beliefs tested. This includes testing my own, albeit limited confidence, in the very possibility of the amillenialist viewpoint.

At this juncture, I am very strongly a pre-millenialist, but I am open to the possibility that amillenialism has some merit. So, this is me arguing the devil's advocate view for amillenialism. Understand, I have answers to every point I make, below.

Regardless, I believe these are the strongest arguments I have ever heard for amillennialism all put together.

Definition of terms: everyone is pretty familiar with the definition of terms here, however, one problem with that is, 'you do not know how I view pre-millenialism'. Further, 'I do not know how you view amillenialism'. Though, the former is far more likely then the later, if you are an amillenialist.

Amillenialism typically means you believe the Millennium to be ongoing. To set aside baggage from 'preterist' and 'non-preterist' viewpoints, and baggage from 'pre-tribulational', 'mid-trib', 'post-trib' doctrines.

Devil's advocate for amillenialism:

- The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the 'Holy Roman Empire', the 'Byzantine' or 'Eastern Roman Empire', and Protestant churches have all promoted and spread the Name of Jesus, and the message of God across the world.

- There have been many good saints and martyrs from all of these branches. All across the world. And, I believe, continue to be many good saints and martyrs. (Martyrdom is still happening, across the world.)

- There are many times, in Scriptural prophecy, where a single verse or a single chapter speaks both of something that happens shortly after the verse was given, and something that happens in the far future. So, there are times where one sees a split and a pause. Further, there are even verses where two different events - albeit always related events - happen far apart from one another, even if neither of them happen shortly after the prophecy of either event is given.

- Taking Revelation in chronological order does have problems due to the seeming impossibility of this happening. I believe the hardest possibility of this being possible of happening to be Revelation 12. Revelation 12 is problematic on many levels for strict chronology to be maintained, at least, without some sort of explanation.

You have there the birth of 'the one who will shatter the nations', you have that one's 'taken up to the Throne of God', you have the battle between Michael and his angels, and between Satan and his angels. The result of this battle is Satan being expelled from any access to Heaven and 'thrown to earth'.

Did not Jesus see 'Satan falls as lightning from Heaven to earth'? Did not Jesus say, on the eve of his murder by Satan, that 'now the prince of this world is driven out of the Kingdom'? Did not Satan fall in the Garden of Eden?

- Jesus brought the Kingdom of God, the very Kingdom of Heaven, with him, when he came the first time. Anyone who is given the Spirit of God, and born again, enters into that very Kingdom. That Kingdom has existed, unquestionably, since the time of the giving of the Spirit to the Twelve Apostles, shortly before the ascension of Jesus to Heaven. And, shortly after his death and resurrection from the dead.

- How can anyone say that Jesus has not already come, spiritually, and is not spiritually ruling through the saints, over this past two thousand years, as it is said he would do in Revelation 20:4? Have we not seen the entire Roman Empire becoming under the mantle of Jesus Christ through both the Orthodox and Catholic churches? Have we not seen the modern world come under, largely, the mantle of the Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic churches? Further, the Millennium must still be continuing, as the last enemy is not yet destroyed.

- Are there three comings of the Lord Jesus, when Jesus only mentioned two comings? Are there, even, four comings of the Lord Jesus? Jesus coming in Revelation 11, at the Seventh Trumpet, Jesus coming in, what, Revelation 20:4, Jesus coming in Revelation 19, Jesus coming after the Millennium? That makes five. This makes no sense.

How could that possibly make sense? Who could make sense out of that?

- How, on earth, could the Seventh Trumpet sound - which is the last Trumpet, most agree, my own self included - over a thousand years before death, the last enemy, is finally destroyed?

- Augustine, and others, have argued that Pre-Millenialists invariably engage in such things as 'bacchanal feasts', believing Jesus will literally reign with the Lord Jesus Christ in the flesh. Therefore, if they believe this, they must be wrong, because the 'Kingdom is not of flesh and blood, but of peace, love, and joy in the Spirit'.

So, the Millennium can not happen in the future, in any near literal sense of the word stronger then it is happening today.

Where, amillenialists believe, they reign with Christ not physically, but spiritually.

- Many of the most vocal pre-millenialists believe they will be literally, physically lifted up into Heaven, 'leaving behind everyone else' at the ascension of the two witnesses, or shortly thereafter, at the blowing of the Seventh Trumpet, in Revelation 11. But, the Kingdom of Heaven comes to earth.

- After the Millennium, you see the City of God descend from Heaven to earth. After that, you see the City on earth, where Christ lives. How could any of that happen then, and yet, not during the Millennium? If it does happen during the Millennium, then there are parts of Revelation which are out of order, thereby destroying the strict, chronological order pre-millenialists demand.

- Is it not right for the 'Christian nations' to consider the kingdoms of Communism, Islam, and other totaliarian kingdoms invalid and at rebellion to the 'Christian nations'? Was it not justified to go to war against the Nazis and Communists? Even, justified by God, Christ, and Heaven?

- While anyone can point out the many flaws of colonialism and expansionism, was there really any other way to get to where we are now, in history? And who can say this is really bad, how we live and are in the Christian world, 'the first world'? Does God have some problem with the internet or television? Modern technology? What great sins could be there, that the Beast, False Prophet, and 'Babylon' are all present today? That today's world might be thoroughly corrupt? Are there not, now, billions of Christians -- by any token of standard?

- The 'beheading' and 'first resurrection' of Revelation 20, the one which documents the Millennium could all be metaphorical. After all, is not one who is beheaded as one who believes blindly and gives up their capacity for free, independent, critical thinking?

Could it not be argued that the 'first resurrection' is something that continually happens across the amillenialist Millenium? That anyone 'beheaded' by the Beast and False Prophet may come to Christ during this time period, be restored to right mind, and experience the 'first resurrection'?

Even though I'm Premil, IMO the following favors Amil rather than Premil.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

This obviously is referring to the 2nd coming. Not only will the saved be rewarded, so will the unsaved, the latter's reward being the LOF. Some Premils though, argue that the context only concerns the rewards for the saved. I disagree.

Let's think through this then, assuming Premil. How does verse 12 also get fulfilled a thousand years after the 2nd coming? There is only one coming remaining, that being the 2nd coming. How can every man not also include any lost mortals still alive during a future thousand years? And since it has to, and like I pointed out, how is it logical to apply verse 12 to anyone a thousand years post the 2nd coming?

ewq1938 · Nov 11, 2018

DavidPT said:
Let's think through this then, assuming Premil. How does verse 12 also get fulfilled a thousand years after the 2nd coming? There is only one coming remaining, that being the 2nd coming. How can every man not also include any lost mortals still alive during a future thousand years? And since it has to, and like I pointed out, how is it logical to apply verse 12 to anyone a thousand years post the 2nd coming?

The verse does not say "all at the same time". The rewards are given in an order and through time. The bad rewards come in stages as well, like the unsaved being reigned over very strictly with a rod of iron and culminates with the LOF as a final reward for evil.

Jesus is just stating a basic fact, not explaining everything in perfect detail. We have to search the scriptures that describe these things to see how they play out. Jesus comes with his reward, and everyone will receive it but in the timing Jesus chooses.

Maria Billingsley · Nov 11, 2018

ewq1938 said:
I asked when Rev 19 took place not who the harlot is.

70 AD

ewq1938 · Nov 11, 2018

Maria Billingsley said:
70 AD

So the second coming happened in Ad 70? I don't recall any historian saying anything about such a huge event.

ToServe · Nov 11, 2018

The reign of Christ is one that is hotly contested by all the advocates of pre-A-post-millennium.

What we need to establish is how Christ reigns. Reading scripture and how the Gospel of Grace has been dispensed by the Church fathers, we come to the realisation that Christ's reign is for the hearts and minds of people from all nations and all walks of life. If Satan's earthly kingdoms are beastly and ferocious and use force, resulting in death and destruction, then Christ's reign is one that rules on the quite by speaking to the hearts and minds of once enemies of Christ and his Gospel. If we are to take Christ's beatitudes with any grain of salt, then we are required to make those eighth beatitudes every part of the Constitution of his Monarchy that was established as prophesied in Daniel 2:44 when -

The Son of Man approached the Ancient of Days (The Father) and was led into his presence. He was given authority, honour, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world so that people of every race and nation and language would obey him. His rule is eternal—it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14)

Do we even realise what the following phrase means -

But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the Almighty God." (Luke 22:69)
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (Matthew 28:18)

For Christ must continue to reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. (1 Corinthians 15:25-26)

If death, whether it be spiritual or biological continues as we witness today, then believe it or not Christ is reigning to this very day in the hearts and minds of those once enemies of his Gospel and of his constitutional Monarchy based on those eight beatitudes.

Saul of Tarsus, who was renamed Paul is just one example of how Christ has been humbling his enemies and making them his footstool. As Paul would coin, "I am a prisoner of Christ".

Has Jesus been reigning through his two witnesses? (Church within the outer unmeasured court of the Gentiles)

Yes.

Jesus has been reigning through his anointed Church (Ekklesia) by making the world subjects/disciples of his Cross. The idea that Christ reigns physically and in person amongst the dying around him is unheard of claim, that begs belief.

When Christ returns at the final judgement of the dead (White Throne Judgement), he would have accomplished his reign and made all those who were required to be registered in the Book of Life to be fully accounted for, hence the phrase "when the Gentiles come to full". This points to the completed reign of Christ in making all that God will be in as subjects of his Kingdom (1 Corinthians 15:28) and afterwards there is no more death, whereby the final enemy death will be declared as being defeated and then Christ hands over the Kingdom that he has been reigning from to this date to God the Father and then becomes subject to the Father who made everything subject to him (Daniel 2:44).

It is not an earthly reign in the sense of establishing governance on earth, rather it has been and is to date a constitutional monarchy that is under the commission of the anointed two witnesses who pour out the golden oil of salvation (7 Candlestick Menorah of God) through the commission given to them in tying on earth what is tied in Heaven and loosening on earth what is to be loosed in Heaven as a precursor to the Holy Spirit Fire that the two witnesses reign down in the sight of once enemies of the Cross by their testimony which is the witnessing of Jesus Christ into the minds and hearts of once enemies of Christ.

Jesus Loves You is a crippling thought to an enemy of the Cross, for the enemy is confounded not knowing whether to lash out in hatred or to try and use intellect to defeat Love itself. Once the enemy reacts to the problem who is Jesus Christ, they immedately either exhibit hate and anger which immediately is evidence of their defeat, because when a person becomes angry they have lost and this is a human rule that is agreed upon by all. The other reaction could be to intellectually try and defeat love itself, in which like the zealot Paul was overcome by when in his hatred, he was brought before Christ as a blind man begging for mercy and mercy was given him, much to his realisation Paul who claimed to be a Pharisee of Pharisees, his intellect could not defeat Christ's love so in this regard to the enemies -

Jesus Loves You!

When Christ returns than the books are opened and then all of humanity would have been born and biologically died, in order to be judged for the works of faith done in the body (Hebrews 9:27).

Millenium reign of Christ in Heaven commences when he has the full complement of numbers written in the Book of Life and then it could be declared God is all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28).

For now, we are in the outer unmeasured court of the Gentiles who trample the Holy City of God because we who hold the testimony of Jesus are the first and last line of defence for the world, before God unleashes his wrath upon the world and completely annihilates the fabric of time and space and with it Satan, Hell, death.

The 1st earth and the 1st heavens are erased from the fabric of time and space and all that remains is the New Jerusalem in the 3rd Heaven comprising of two mountainous congregations the former sea (northern part) and the latter sea (southern part). Faithful in Christ are biologically dying and being sealed within Christ's numbers and those who have yet to finish their race of faith will all have their turn.

We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8)

When the thief (death) comes knocking on your door at the midnight hour, you are then ready to meet your maker and to receive the Crown of Life that is laid up for you only after you as a Testator Biologically Die, for they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise, it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. (Hebrews 9:15-17)

Let us purge ourselves from the self and prepare and to carry our Crosses for the day of salvation draws near when we are ready to meet him as Saint Stephan the first martyr met him. The Christian path in this world is the path to our own calvary and in this regard let us finish our race of faith and keeping it even onto death, therefore it is our motto "To Die for Your Lord". For now, let us be vigilant in faith and to work faithfully for Christ unto the day the thief comes in the night.

ewq1938 · Nov 11, 2018

ToServe said:
If Satan's earthly kingdoms are beastly and ferocious and use force, resulting in death and destruction, then Christ's reign is one that rules on the quite by speaking to the hearts and minds of once enemies of Christ and his Gospel.

That actually describes a reign of failure not the true reign of the rod of iron over the nations where they will be fully and strictly controlled with zero rebellion, zero death or destruction by the unsaved.

The above proves this disaster of a world is under Satan's current control as the ruler of this world as told to us by Christ himself. When Christ returns, then and only then will that rule be taken from Satan and the wicked of this world and they all will be literally reigned over by Christ and his resurrected/immortal saints for a thousand years. In a previous post I proved that this same reign only begins when Christ returns.

Main Problems w "A" or "Post" Millenialism?

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 11, 2018

Maria Billingsley said: ↑
It depends on ones "lens" so you will probably disagree. First we need to identify the "harlot".

Isaiah 1:21
How the faithful city has become a harlot!
It was full of justice;
Righteousness lodged in it,
But now murderers.

ewq1938 said:
I asked when Rev 19 took place not who the harlot is.

It took place in 70ad with the decimation of the OC Temple/Sanctuary and Priesthood, as prophecied by Jesus in the NT along with the OT prophecies.

When do you think it took/or will take place?

Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?

Matthew 23:
15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! That ye are going about the sea and the dry<3584> to make one proselyte,
and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV<1067> twofold-more of ye-selves
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>

Revelation 14:11
And the Smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages..........[Matthew 23:33-37 Luke 16:24-26]

Matthew 23:
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,
the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!............
[Luke 13:34 Revelation 14:11 Revelation 19:3]

Revelation 19:3
And a second-time they have declared "allelouia!
and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".
[Ezekiel 22:17-22 Luke 21:22-23]

.

ewq1938 · Nov 11, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
It took place in 70ad with the decimation of the OC Temple/Sanctuary and Priesthood, as prophecied by Jesus in the NT.

When do you think it took/or will take place?

Half of Rev 19 depicts the second coming and the battle that occurs at that time. The only thing that happened in Ad 70 was Rome punishing the Jews for trying to rebel against them. Even Christ rejected such an idea when he said give to Caesar what belongs to him.

Jesus returning with a heavenly army and fighting against the 4th beast of Daniel clearly has not happened yet because the end result of that is the beast and false prophet being cast into the LOF. Those two haven't shown up yet let alone having been destroyed in Ad 70.

ToServe · Nov 11, 2018

ewq1938 said:
That actually describes a reign of failure not the true reign of the rod of iron over the nations where they will be fully and strictly controlled with zero rebellion, zero death or destruction by the unsaved.

How could Christ's reign through his Cross and for the hearts and minds of once enemies be a "reign of failure"?

ewq1938 · Nov 11, 2018

ToServe said:
How could Christ's reign through his Cross and for the hearts and minds of once enemies be a "reign of failure"?

Because it fails to do what is found in Rev 20 and other places...namely to control the nations and Satan. Satan currently deceives the nations and causes all sorts of evil along with evil unChristian nations persecuting Christians daily. The Amil version of Christi's reign is a disaster compared to the biblical reign. That's because Amil wrongly tries to relocate the reign to the current world rather than the proper biblical placement after Christ has returned.

Look around, if this world is being reigned by Christ it's a failure of a reign, a false reign in name only and not in accomplishment.

We currently are in the world God has allowed Satan to rule over and influence and are awaiting the glorious reign of the rod of iron over the nations by Christ and his saints.

ToServe · Nov 11, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Because it fails to do what is found in Rev 20 and other places...namely to control the nations and Satan.

It is all about making disciples for Jesus. Christianity has spread far and wide in all nations and the numbers of Christians have fulfilled prophesies.

"I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies."

Has Christ not controlled the peoples of the beastly nations that Satan claims to control?

The war is for the hearts and minds.

ewq1938 said:
That's because Amil wrongly tries to relocate the reign to the current world rather than the proper biblical placement after Christ has returned.

Paul is saying Jesus will continue to reign until he delivers the Kingdom to God the Father at his return.

What is that to you?
How do you respond to Paul?

ewq1938 said:
Look around, if this world is being reigned by Christ it's a failure of a reign, a false reign in name only and not in accomplishment.

I think that every soul that has ever been won over to Christ is a victorious reign in the name of Jesus. Yes in the name of Jesus.

If this is not accomplishment to your standards, then I don't know what is!

If a once enemy who would otherwise be born and die without Christ, be within his lifetime be brought to Christ by winning their heart and mind then that is a victory, one soul at a time.

Reign of winning souls one soul at a time and in the name of Jesus.

ewq1938 · Nov 11, 2018

ToServe said:
It is all about making disciples for Jesus. Christianity has spread far and wide in all nations and the numbers of Christians have fulfilled prophesies.

Those are premillennial achievements that began even before the cross.

Has Christ not controlled the peoples of the beastly nations that Satan claims to control?

Christ has not reigned over those beastly nations but he will in the future.

Paul is saying Jesus will continue to reign until he delivers the Kingdom to God the Father at his return.

Scripture shows that his reign over the nations begins when he appears not ends he returns. Rev 2 and 19 both affirm this. Paul does not teach any differently.

I think that every soul that has ever been won over to Christ is a victorious reign in the name of Jesus. Yes in the name of Jesus.

That's not what the word reign means. Scripture says a reign over the nations with a rod of iron...that is not happening now but it will when the biblical thousand years begins.

If a once enemy who would otherwise be born and die without Christ, be within his lifetime be brought to Christ by winning their heart and mind then that is a victory, one soul at a time.

Reign of winning souls one soul at a time and in the name of Jesus.

Awesome but not related to the reign over the nations mentioned in the book of Revelation.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Both show the reign over the nations starts when Christ returns.

ToServe · Nov 12, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Awesome but not related to the reign over the nations mentioned in the book of Revelation.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Both show the reign over the nations starts when Christ returns.

What is the mission statement in the verse proceeding Rev 19:14?

At this, I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

The Testimony of Jesus is the very act and commission of Ekklesia, in proclaiming the Gospel by saying "Worship God!".

So how does Jesus rule with a rod of iron?

Is it a literal rod of iron or is it in a metaphorical sense a destructive method used by Christ to clobber his enemies to death and then the remaining survivors into submission?

Is this the Jesus of the Bible who teaches his eight beatitudes and declares that no one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless they are born again (John 3:5) and in addition -

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Rev 22:15)

Is this rod of iron a complete backflip in the way Jesus deals with sinners and his enemies at his return?

Or is it that the rod of iron is a distinctive path that is directly tied to the testimony of Jesus, his Gospel?

The Church fathers would say that it is the latter, in that Jesus uses the preaching of the Gospel as his rod of iron to bring the once enemies of the Cross into submission. Yes, this happened even before the Cross as Jesus commissioned his Ekklesia to preach the Gospel into every town and city.

Well, let us at least contextualise it whether it is metaphorical or literal and in what sense metaphorical.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations

Jesus defeats his enemies by a literal sharp sword that comes out of his mouth?

No.

Jesus defeats his enemies by a metaphorical sharp sword which is directly associated with his testimony that is being dispensed through his Ekklesia to this very day?

Absolutely!

Jesus defeats the once enemies by spoken words related to his testimony, that is his Gospel and then those peoples from every nation are counted as the nations in the sense of Christ winning their hearts and minds, where they too become a conduit to dispense his sharp sword by spoken words, that is his testimony. This is happening within a 6 degrees of separation where his sharp sword from his mouth owing to his Gospel is reaching the hearts and minds of every person of every nation that is across the globe.

Is this not the rod of iron spoken of that is directly related to his sharp sword that comes out of his mouth, owing to his testimony which is also the Spirit of prophecy?

Absolutely!

If you tried to make it literal, then you have to apply terms literally in a consistent manner and of course, you have a literal sword in Jesus' mouth that Jesus uses to literally bludgeon and to kill his enemies. Even if we entertain this nonsense for a moment, the question that begs is what gain would that be in making disciples for his cause?

Absolutely nothing.

If you make it metaphorical in the sense that he uses his military directions to literally disseminate his enemies onto death and then into submission, then the question that begs what loyalty is achieved by those nations when Jesus is portrayed as Gangiskan?

Have we not learnt from history that overtaking an enemy by violent means never ends well and is always results in a fractured kingdom that is dictatorial and those who are in submission despise the dictator who has broken them to the point of submission. Does uprising come to mind?

There is no peaceful reign when a king pulverises his enemies and takes those nations as his trophy and with it the spoils. This type of takeover is unsuccessful because the peoples of those nations will live under oppression and they have one thing on their minds and that is to despise the dictator and to hate him with all their hearts.

Violence results in fear and in this regard if the rod of iron is a violent path to own those nations, then the dominion is one based on fear and oppression, which points to the Jesus of the Quran that comes to kill and to destroy through military conquest, the Jesus of the 1st Century Jews who comes to clobber the Romans. This is completely at odds with the Gospel of Jesus Christ and this forms the basis of rejecting your metaphorical definition of a military rule with a rod of iron.

he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Obviously, it appears that the method by which the enemy is being conquered is by keeping the works of Christ unto the very end. Well, what does that mean?

The faithful are guaranteed to be granted the power over those nations that Christ is defeating by the rod of iron through their testimony of him, his Gospel, in winning their hearts and minds through a peaceful conviction of the heart that appeals to the subject to come by their own volition without fear resulting from violence and oppression.

Every single verse you have quoted comes back to you in a way that sways you away from the erroneous thought that Christ would in anyway contradict his teachings and his eight beatitudes to implement a violent military takeover that makes subjects through violence, fear and oppression.

That my friend is not the Jesus of the very Bible you are quoting, for we know our God and that my friend is not the Jesus of the very Bible you are quoting who will never ever contradict or go against his own beatitudes, for to do so would be completely out of character and this means that the Jesus that conquers by violence is the Islamic Jesus of the Quran.

"The son of Mary will soon descend among you and will judge justly (according to the Law of God [26]): he will break the cross and kill the pig... " (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)

Wrong Jesus Alert! Wrong Jesus Alert! Wrong Jesus Alert!

ewq1938 · Nov 12, 2018

ToServe said:
Wrong Jesus Alert! Wrong Jesus Alert! Wrong Jesus Alert!

I could not agree more! This ALERT should continue.

ToServe · Nov 12, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Those are premillennial achievements that began even before the cross.

How could they be a pre millenium achievements and not a pre reign of Christ, if Christ was given all power, authority, dominion and a Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 when he sat on the right hand of power?

Jesus said within the context of the Great Commission “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Do you say the Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 has not yet been established and that Christ has yet to sit on the throne of David?

ewq1938 said:
Christ has not reigned over those beastly nations but he will in the future.

Why would he rule beastly nations. The Beast of the Bottomless Pitt reigns over those beastly nations.

Why would Jesus play that part when his Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 is not a beastly kingdom.

ewq1938 said:
Scripture shows that his reign over the nations begins when he appears not ends he returns. Rev 2 and 19 both affirm this. Paul does not teach any differently.

His reign over the nations ends, because then God will be all in all those who were to be accounted for in the Book of Life. Then he becomes the subject of the Father when he hands over the Kingdom as in mission accomplished.

ewq1938 said:
That's not what the word reign means. Scripture says a reign over the nations with a rod of iron...that is not happening now but it will when the biblical thousand years begins.

Where does it explicitly say this. Paul says he shall continue to reign in the present perfect tense of the verb "continue to reign" which implies a present ongoing process until he puts all enemies under his feet. His reign ends after he puts all enemies under his feet, otherwise reigning for a 1000 years after he has accomplished putting under his feet all his enemies has no meaning to the very present perfect tense of the verb continue to reign until.

ToServe · Nov 12, 2018

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

resurrection at Christ's coming.

24Then cometh the end,

Notice not the beginning of his reign, but the end of his reign.

when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;

He returns and his reign ends and the Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 is delivered to the Father as in mission accomplished in reigning to achieve the intended goal.

when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Ok, now Christ cannot return until after he has put down all rule, authority and power.

25For he must reign, untill he hath put all enemies under his feet.

It is explictly clear that hus reign ends when he returns and yet we see some people are advocating a reign on earth after his return.

He reigns until and not after the goal is achieved, thereby leaving no doubt that Christ reigned from the moment he commissioned his Ekklesia and continues to this very day to reign in bringing more subjects from all nations to the Father.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Death ends at Christ's return. But apparently the pre millennium motif still has death continuing after he returns.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

When Christ achieves total victory then his reign comes to an end after he delivers the Kingdom and becomes the subject to the Father who made all subjects to him when he sat on the right hand of power.

It is counterintuitive to think that Christ's millenium only commences after defeating his enemies and not before.

According to pre millenium the reign of Christ lasts a 1000 years and the 2000 years of great commission places absolutely no credit to his reign through his Ekklesia which results in a disjointed and disfunctional reign by totally ignoring the purpose of his Cross and the Spirit of Grace.

It seams the reign presented by the pre millennium motif is carnel and fleshly and has no Gospel purpose tied to it as it revolves around earthly kingdom building through military conquest that presents subjects to the Father as a result of fear and oppression rather than the Gospel of Love for God is Love (John 4:24).

Earthly reign is another gospel that completely removes the power of the Cross and the Spirit of Grace from the equation of reigning for the Kingdom of Christ as declared in Daniel 2:44.

The pre millenium position must therefore be rejected as a nihilistic attempt to do away with the Cross and the Spirit of Grace in favour of a strange god of forces and military conquest in which the Gospel of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with.

30I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me. (John 14:30-31)

DavidPT · Nov 12, 2018

ewq1938 said:
The verse does not say "all at the same time". The rewards are given in an order and through time. The bad rewards come in stages as well, like the unsaved being reigned over very strictly with a rod of iron and culminates with the LOF as a final reward for evil.

Jesus is just stating a basic fact, not explaining everything in perfect detail. We have to search the scriptures that describe these things to see how they play out. Jesus comes with his reward, and everyone will receive it but in the timing Jesus chooses.

I like your reasoning of this, yet I'm still thinking that Revelation 22:12, in context, is meaning works already performed prior to the 2nd coming, and not any works performed after the 2nd coming as well.

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