'Devil's Advocate' for Amillenialism

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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ItIsFinished! said:
You apparently do not realize that the Book of Revelation was written around 90 to 95 AD.
REVELATION, not that which has already come to pass.
LittleLambofJesus said:
Is that it? Is that your main argument?
Threads on CF when was Revelation written:
No argument whatsoever.
Muchless a "main" one.
What are you talking about?
Then why bring it up?
Why not respond to the verses that I spent time putting up?
If anything, hopefully it will help my fellow Preterists out.........
Revelation is all what was going to happen around 70AD. Simples
Nope. Not at all.
Correct. None of it is about Ad 70. Revelation and the trib are Satan's wrath against Christians, not Jews.
Oh my goodness......that sounds like J Darby talking.


Look up this word #3709.
I will make it easy for ya and put up a link to it:

G3709 (NKJV)
G3709 occurs 36 times in 34 verses

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,

Brood of vipers!
Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath/ ὀργῆς<3709> to come?

Are these "multitudes" Christians or Jews?


Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,
Brood of vipers!

Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> to come?

Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!


Luke 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!


Matthew 24:19
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those, the days!

"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation
"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22

This sure looks like it is against the 1st century Jews....[unless one wants to twist it around and make it Christians]


Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled all the having been written<1125>
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath/ὀργὴ <3709> upon this people.

Revelation 6:16
And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks:
'Be falling upon us! and hide us! from Face<4383> of the One-sitting/kaqhmenon <2521> (5740) upon the Throne,
and from the wrath<3709> of the Lamb




.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Everyone needs to take a lens free fresh look at Revelation. Starting with the very first line.

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
 
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Radagast

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BTW, most Amil's I have talked to believe the first resurrection is Jesus resurrecting which also is not found in Rev 20.

That would be a minority view among amill theologians, I think. The general amill view is that the "first resurrection" refers to dead Christians, who are now "reigning with Christ" in heaven.

Revelation is all what was going to happen around 70AD. Simples

The amill view would be that Revelation applies to the whole of human history, including things that are still in the future. So Revelation 12:4 describes the fall of Satan (in the distant past) as well as Satan's attempts to defeat Jesus here on earth (described in the Bible). Amill theologians disagree on exactly which things are past and which are future, and in general they spend less time on details of Revelation than premill theologians do. The main purpose of Revelation, in the amill view, is to encourage Christians (initially, the persecuted Christians at the time it was written) to believe that God has a plan, and that Satan has already lost the war.

Jesus brought the Kingdom of God, the very Kingdom of Heaven, with him, when he came the first time. Anyone who is given the Spirit of God, and born again, enters into that very Kingdom. That Kingdom has existed, unquestionably, since the time of the giving of the Spirit to the Twelve Apostles, shortly before the ascension of Jesus to Heaven. And, shortly after his death and resurrection from the dead.

That paragraph expresses the amill view quite well.
 
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Radagast

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Why not respond to the verses that I spent time putting up?

Well, (1) your posts are sometimes kind of hard to read (especially your use of colour, which is even more extreme than mine), and (2) you tend to put up verses and not say anything much about them (it would often help if you explained what you thought those verses meant).
 
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ewq1938

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That would be a minority view among amill theologians, I think. The general amill view is that the "first resurrection" refers to dead Christians, who are now "reigning with Christ" in heaven.


The two are related though...Jesus resurrected so Christians are spiritually resurrected when they are born again. Again, not remotely close to what Rev 20 says is the first resurrection.
 
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ewq1938

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Everyone needs to take a lens free fresh look at Revelation. Starting with the very first line.

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.


So when did Rev 19 take place in history? And Rev 20-22?
 
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thesunisout

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Foreward: Using the colloquial term here, not to be too challenging, of 'considering criticially a viewpoint other then one's own. I lean heavily towards pre-millenialism, and the major reason I am opening discussions on the subject is to have my own beliefs tested. This includes testing my own, albeit limited confidence, in the very possibility of the amillenialist viewpoint.

At this juncture, I am very strongly a pre-millenialist, but I am open to the possibility that amillenialism has some merit. So, this is me arguing the devil's advocate view for amillenialism. Understand, I have answers to every point I make, below.

Regardless, I believe these are the strongest arguments I have ever heard for amillennialism all put together.

Definition of terms: everyone is pretty familiar with the definition of terms here, however, one problem with that is, 'you do not know how I view pre-millenialism'. Further, 'I do not know how you view amillenialism'. Though, the former is far more likely then the later, if you are an amillenialist.

Amillenialism typically means you believe the Millennium to be ongoing. To set aside baggage from 'preterist' and 'non-preterist' viewpoints, and baggage from 'pre-tribulational', 'mid-trib', 'post-trib' doctrines.

Devil's advocate for amillenialism:

- The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the 'Holy Roman Empire', the 'Byzantine' or 'Eastern Roman Empire', and Protestant churches have all promoted and spread the Name of Jesus, and the message of God across the world.

- There have been many good saints and martyrs from all of these branches. All across the world. And, I believe, continue to be many good saints and martyrs. (Martyrdom is still happening, across the world.)

- There are many times, in Scriptural prophecy, where a single verse or a single chapter speaks both of something that happens shortly after the verse was given, and something that happens in the far future. So, there are times where one sees a split and a pause. Further, there are even verses where two different events - albeit always related events - happen far apart from one another, even if neither of them happen shortly after the prophecy of either event is given.

- Taking Revelation in chronological order does have problems due to the seeming impossibility of this happening. I believe the hardest possibility of this being possible of happening to be Revelation 12. Revelation 12 is problematic on many levels for strict chronology to be maintained, at least, without some sort of explanation.

You have there the birth of 'the one who will shatter the nations', you have that one's 'taken up to the Throne of God', you have the battle between Michael and his angels, and between Satan and his angels. The result of this battle is Satan being expelled from any access to Heaven and 'thrown to earth'.

Did not Jesus see 'Satan falls as lightning from Heaven to earth'? Did not Jesus say, on the eve of his murder by Satan, that 'now the prince of this world is driven out of the Kingdom'? Did not Satan fall in the Garden of Eden?

- Jesus brought the Kingdom of God, the very Kingdom of Heaven, with him, when he came the first time. Anyone who is given the Spirit of God, and born again, enters into that very Kingdom. That Kingdom has existed, unquestionably, since the time of the giving of the Spirit to the Twelve Apostles, shortly before the ascension of Jesus to Heaven. And, shortly after his death and resurrection from the dead.

- How can anyone say that Jesus has not already come, spiritually, and is not spiritually ruling through the saints, over this past two thousand years, as it is said he would do in Revelation 20:4? Have we not seen the entire Roman Empire becoming under the mantle of Jesus Christ through both the Orthodox and Catholic churches? Have we not seen the modern world come under, largely, the mantle of the Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic churches? Further, the Millennium must still be continuing, as the last enemy is not yet destroyed.

- Are there three comings of the Lord Jesus, when Jesus only mentioned two comings? Are there, even, four comings of the Lord Jesus? Jesus coming in Revelation 11, at the Seventh Trumpet, Jesus coming in, what, Revelation 20:4, Jesus coming in Revelation 19, Jesus coming after the Millennium? That makes five. This makes no sense.

How could that possibly make sense? Who could make sense out of that?

- How, on earth, could the Seventh Trumpet sound - which is the last Trumpet, most agree, my own self included - over a thousand years before death, the last enemy, is finally destroyed?

- Augustine, and others, have argued that Pre-Millenialists invariably engage in such things as 'bacchanal feasts', believing Jesus will literally reign with the Lord Jesus Christ in the flesh. Therefore, if they believe this, they must be wrong, because the 'Kingdom is not of flesh and blood, but of peace, love, and joy in the Spirit'.

So, the Millennium can not happen in the future, in any near literal sense of the word stronger then it is happening today.

Where, amillenialists believe, they reign with Christ not physically, but spiritually.

- Many of the most vocal pre-millenialists believe they will be literally, physically lifted up into Heaven, 'leaving behind everyone else' at the ascension of the two witnesses, or shortly thereafter, at the blowing of the Seventh Trumpet, in Revelation 11. But, the Kingdom of Heaven comes to earth.

- After the Millennium, you see the City of God descend from Heaven to earth. After that, you see the City on earth, where Christ lives. How could any of that happen then, and yet, not during the Millennium? If it does happen during the Millennium, then there are parts of Revelation which are out of order, thereby destroying the strict, chronological order pre-millenialists demand.

- Is it not right for the 'Christian nations' to consider the kingdoms of Communism, Islam, and other totaliarian kingdoms invalid and at rebellion to the 'Christian nations'? Was it not justified to go to war against the Nazis and Communists? Even, justified by God, Christ, and Heaven?

- While anyone can point out the many flaws of colonialism and expansionism, was there really any other way to get to where we are now, in history? And who can say this is really bad, how we live and are in the Christian world, 'the first world'? Does God have some problem with the internet or television? Modern technology? What great sins could be there, that the Beast, False Prophet, and 'Babylon' are all present today? That today's world might be thoroughly corrupt? Are there not, now, billions of Christians -- by any token of standard?

- The 'beheading' and 'first resurrection' of Revelation 20, the one which documents the Millennium could all be metaphorical. After all, is not one who is beheaded as one who believes blindly and gives up their capacity for free, independent, critical thinking?

Could it not be argued that the 'first resurrection' is something that continually happens across the amillenialist Millenium? That anyone 'beheaded' by the Beast and False Prophet may come to Christ during this time period, be restored to right mind, and experience the 'first resurrection'?

In what sense is Satan bound today? It's hard to argue that when you can see the wheels coming off with your very eyes.
 
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ewq1938

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In what sense is Satan bound today?


I agree and add, how is satan imprisoned with a seal over it and bound with a chain which means not on a leash like a dog but wrapped up with a chain meaning he cannot move at all inside of a sealed prison/pit/hole.
 
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ToServe

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After the Millennium, you see the City of God descend from Heaven to earth.

This happens when Jesus the Crowned Monarch blows the 7th Trumpet of God and declares by that Trumpet Time no longer. The two worlds collide, the old heavens and the old earth are no more and then the new 3rd heaven and the New Jerusalem comes into view and continues forever. Spiritual and biological death is no more. Hell and Satan is no more. Jesus reign is a mission accomplished through his Cross and now he becomes subject to the Father who put everything under him.
 
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BABerean2

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I agree and add, how is satan imprisoned with a seal over it and bound with a chain which means not on a leash like a dog but wrapped up with a chain meaning he cannot move at all inside of a sealed prison/pit/hole.

Is Satan one of the angels who sinned?

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

.
 
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Dave L

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Before anyone can decipher the symbols of Revelation truthfully, they must redefine Old Testament terms according to Jesus and the NT. Unless they do this, they will add to the book of Revelation becoming false prophets, placing themselves in harms way.

Following are some Jesus quotes and others about he spiritual nature of the kingdom.

“And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

“Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

“But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

“because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

“He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)
 
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Erik Nelson

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Amil is correct, in that the Kingdom came with Christ and has been ongoing continuously since

But, the Millennium is not synonymous with the Kingdom. The Millennium is one 1000 year phase of the Kingdom, in which the Kingdom not only exists but enjoys pre-eminence in society.

Millennium = Kingdom reigning in power

NB: every history book calls the Byzantine empire (4th-15th centuries) the "1000 year Christian empire" when the Church was pre-eminent in society
 
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Maria Billingsley

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So when did Rev 19 take place in history? And Rev 20-22?

It depends on ones "lens" so you will probably disagree. First we need to identify the "harlot".

Isaiah 1:21
How the faithful city has become a harlot!
It was full of justice;
Righteousness lodged in it,
But now murderers.
 
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LastSeven

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The real first resurrection found in Rev 20 says it is a group of Christians who refused the mark of the beast in the great tribulation and they were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and they resurrect from the dead before the thousand years even starts and there are no "first resurrections" that happen during the thousand years.

BTW, most Amil's I have talked to believe the first resurrection is Jesus resurrecting which also is not found in Rev 20.

Amil changes what the first resurrection actually is according to what's written in Rev 20.
I think the reason you have trouble with this is because what you believe the mark of the beast to be, a physical mark of some sort which has to be literally accepted. What if the mark of the beast is a spiritual mark, not unlike the mark of God the Israelites had on their hands and foreheads during the Exodus?

I believe everybody has one of two marks. You either have the mark of the beast, or you have the mark of God. As James 4:4 says "don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God."

You are either with God, or against God. There is no in between. Jesus said exactly this in Mark 9:40 "Whoever is not against us, is for us".

This means everyone is already marked, and those who have the mark of God have by default not taken the mark of the beast and were therefore crucified with Christ and resurrected with him and seated with him on the throne.

Ephesians 2:6

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

Paul here literally says that we were resurrected and placed in a position of authority along with Christ. This is the resurrection and reigning of the saints.
 
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LastSeven

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The "first resurrection" is baptism. We are baptized into Christ's death and resurrected with him.

Not the one found in Rev 20.

See what I mean Dreamer? This is what Amil does to what is written in Rev 20. This alone proves Pre-mil to be the correct theology because it does not redefine things to things not even in the text.
What does Paul say about baptism?

Romans 6:4

For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.

Isn't that exactly what HTacianas said?

And there's more.

Galatians 2:19
19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.


Romans 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.


Romans 6:13
Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life.


John 5:24-25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


Please explain to me how the first resurrection in Revelation 20 could not possibly be this same resurrection spoken of in these verses?
 
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LastSeven

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Foreward: Using the colloquial term here, not to be too challenging, of 'considering criticially a viewpoint other then one's own. I lean heavily towards pre-millenialism, and the major reason I am opening discussions on the subject is to have my own beliefs tested. This includes testing my own, albeit limited confidence, in the very possibility of the amillenialist viewpoint.
So given that you've seen and heard the arguments for amillenialism, what is it that keeps you from accepting it?
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Foreward: Using the colloquial term here, not to be too challenging, of 'considering criticially a viewpoint other then one's own. I lean heavily towards pre-millenialism, and the major reason I am opening discussions on the subject is to have my own beliefs tested. This includes testing my own, albeit limited confidence, in the very possibility of the amillenialist viewpoint.

At this juncture, I am very strongly a pre-millenialist, but I am open to the possibility that amillenialism has some merit. So, this is me arguing the devil's advocate view for amillenialism. Understand, I have answers to every point I make, below.

Regardless, I believe these are the strongest arguments I have ever heard for amillennialism all put together.

Definition of terms: everyone is pretty familiar with the definition of terms here, however, one problem with that is, 'you do not know how I view pre-millenialism'. Further, 'I do not know how you view amillenialism'. Though, the former is far more likely then the later, if you are an amillenialist.

Amillenialism typically means you believe the Millennium to be ongoing. To set aside baggage from 'preterist' and 'non-preterist' viewpoints, and baggage from 'pre-tribulational', 'mid-trib', 'post-trib' doctrines.

Devil's advocate for amillenialism:

- The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the 'Holy Roman Empire', the 'Byzantine' or 'Eastern Roman Empire', and Protestant churches have all promoted and spread the Name of Jesus, and the message of God across the world.

- There have been many good saints and martyrs from all of these branches. All across the world. And, I believe, continue to be many good saints and martyrs. (Martyrdom is still happening, across the world.)

- There are many times, in Scriptural prophecy, where a single verse or a single chapter speaks both of something that happens shortly after the verse was given, and something that happens in the far future. So, there are times where one sees a split and a pause. Further, there are even verses where two different events - albeit always related events - happen far apart from one another, even if neither of them happen shortly after the prophecy of either event is given.

- Taking Revelation in chronological order does have problems due to the seeming impossibility of this happening. I believe the hardest possibility of this being possible of happening to be Revelation 12. Revelation 12 is problematic on many levels for strict chronology to be maintained, at least, without some sort of explanation.

You have there the birth of 'the one who will shatter the nations', you have that one's 'taken up to the Throne of God', you have the battle between Michael and his angels, and between Satan and his angels. The result of this battle is Satan being expelled from any access to Heaven and 'thrown to earth'.

Did not Jesus see 'Satan falls as lightning from Heaven to earth'? Did not Jesus say, on the eve of his murder by Satan, that 'now the prince of this world is driven out of the Kingdom'? Did not Satan fall in the Garden of Eden?

- Jesus brought the Kingdom of God, the very Kingdom of Heaven, with him, when he came the first time. Anyone who is given the Spirit of God, and born again, enters into that very Kingdom. That Kingdom has existed, unquestionably, since the time of the giving of the Spirit to the Twelve Apostles, shortly before the ascension of Jesus to Heaven. And, shortly after his death and resurrection from the dead.

- How can anyone say that Jesus has not already come, spiritually, and is not spiritually ruling through the saints, over this past two thousand years, as it is said he would do in Revelation 20:4? Have we not seen the entire Roman Empire becoming under the mantle of Jesus Christ through both the Orthodox and Catholic churches? Have we not seen the modern world come under, largely, the mantle of the Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic churches? Further, the Millennium must still be continuing, as the last enemy is not yet destroyed.

- Are there three comings of the Lord Jesus, when Jesus only mentioned two comings? Are there, even, four comings of the Lord Jesus? Jesus coming in Revelation 11, at the Seventh Trumpet, Jesus coming in, what, Revelation 20:4, Jesus coming in Revelation 19, Jesus coming after the Millennium? That makes five. This makes no sense.

How could that possibly make sense? Who could make sense out of that?

- How, on earth, could the Seventh Trumpet sound - which is the last Trumpet, most agree, my own self included - over a thousand years before death, the last enemy, is finally destroyed?

- Augustine, and others, have argued that Pre-Millenialists invariably engage in such things as 'bacchanal feasts', believing Jesus will literally reign with the Lord Jesus Christ in the flesh. Therefore, if they believe this, they must be wrong, because the 'Kingdom is not of flesh and blood, but of peace, love, and joy in the Spirit'.

So, the Millennium can not happen in the future, in any near literal sense of the word stronger then it is happening today.

Where, amillenialists believe, they reign with Christ not physically, but spiritually.

- Many of the most vocal pre-millenialists believe they will be literally, physically lifted up into Heaven, 'leaving behind everyone else' at the ascension of the two witnesses, or shortly thereafter, at the blowing of the Seventh Trumpet, in Revelation 11. But, the Kingdom of Heaven comes to earth.

- After the Millennium, you see the City of God descend from Heaven to earth. After that, you see the City on earth, where Christ lives. How could any of that happen then, and yet, not during the Millennium? If it does happen during the Millennium, then there are parts of Revelation which are out of order, thereby destroying the strict, chronological order pre-millenialists demand.

- Is it not right for the 'Christian nations' to consider the kingdoms of Communism, Islam, and other totaliarian kingdoms invalid and at rebellion to the 'Christian nations'? Was it not justified to go to war against the Nazis and Communists? Even, justified by God, Christ, and Heaven?

- While anyone can point out the many flaws of colonialism and expansionism, was there really any other way to get to where we are now, in history? And who can say this is really bad, how we live and are in the Christian world, 'the first world'? Does God have some problem with the internet or television? Modern technology? What great sins could be there, that the Beast, False Prophet, and 'Babylon' are all present today? That today's world might be thoroughly corrupt? Are there not, now, billions of Christians -- by any token of standard?

- The 'beheading' and 'first resurrection' of Revelation 20, the one which documents the Millennium could all be metaphorical. After all, is not one who is beheaded as one who believes blindly and gives up their capacity for free, independent, critical thinking?

Could it not be argued that the 'first resurrection' is something that continually happens across the amillenialist Millenium? That anyone 'beheaded' by the Beast and False Prophet may come to Christ during this time period, be restored to right mind, and experience the 'first resurrection'?
Easier to start at the back of the book. There are at least three dozen chapters of prophecy about the New Jerusalem. Not just those two in Revelation. The reason God gave us so many chapters is so we could arrive at a Biblical interpretation of the city on the hill rather than our own based on just those two chapters.
I go through the dozens of chapters in this article in the link.
The New Jerusalem
NJ.jpg
 
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Foreward: Using the colloquial term here, not to be too challenging, of 'considering criticially a viewpoint other then one's own. I lean heavily towards pre-millenialism, and the major reason I am opening discussions on the subject is to have my own beliefs tested. This includes testing my own, albeit limited confidence, in the very possibility of the amillenialist viewpoint.

At this juncture, I am very strongly a pre-millenialist, but I am open to the possibility that amillenialism has some merit. So, this is me arguing the devil's advocate view for amillenialism. Understand, I have answers to every point I make, below.

Regardless, I believe these are the strongest arguments I have ever heard for amillennialism all put together.

Definition of terms: everyone is pretty familiar with the definition of terms here, however, one problem with that is, 'you do not know how I view pre-millenialism'. Further, 'I do not know how you view amillenialism'. Though, the former is far more likely then the later, if you are an amillenialist.

Amillenialism typically means you believe the Millennium to be ongoing. To set aside baggage from 'preterist' and 'non-preterist' viewpoints, and baggage from 'pre-tribulational', 'mid-trib', 'post-trib' doctrines.

Devil's advocate for amillenialism:

- The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the 'Holy Roman Empire', the 'Byzantine' or 'Eastern Roman Empire', and Protestant churches have all promoted and spread the Name of Jesus, and the message of God across the world.

- There have been many good saints and martyrs from all of these branches. All across the world. And, I believe, continue to be many good saints and martyrs. (Martyrdom is still happening, across the world.)

- There are many times, in Scriptural prophecy, where a single verse or a single chapter speaks both of something that happens shortly after the verse was given, and something that happens in the far future. So, there are times where one sees a split and a pause. Further, there are even verses where two different events - albeit always related events - happen far apart from one another, even if neither of them happen shortly after the prophecy of either event is given.

- Taking Revelation in chronological order does have problems due to the seeming impossibility of this happening. I believe the hardest possibility of this being possible of happening to be Revelation 12. Revelation 12 is problematic on many levels for strict chronology to be maintained, at least, without some sort of explanation.

You have there the birth of 'the one who will shatter the nations', you have that one's 'taken up to the Throne of God', you have the battle between Michael and his angels, and between Satan and his angels. The result of this battle is Satan being expelled from any access to Heaven and 'thrown to earth'.

Did not Jesus see 'Satan falls as lightning from Heaven to earth'? Did not Jesus say, on the eve of his murder by Satan, that 'now the prince of this world is driven out of the Kingdom'? Did not Satan fall in the Garden of Eden?

- Jesus brought the Kingdom of God, the very Kingdom of Heaven, with him, when he came the first time. Anyone who is given the Spirit of God, and born again, enters into that very Kingdom. That Kingdom has existed, unquestionably, since the time of the giving of the Spirit to the Twelve Apostles, shortly before the ascension of Jesus to Heaven. And, shortly after his death and resurrection from the dead.

- How can anyone say that Jesus has not already come, spiritually, and is not spiritually ruling through the saints, over this past two thousand years, as it is said he would do in Revelation 20:4? Have we not seen the entire Roman Empire becoming under the mantle of Jesus Christ through both the Orthodox and Catholic churches? Have we not seen the modern world come under, largely, the mantle of the Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic churches? Further, the Millennium must still be continuing, as the last enemy is not yet destroyed.

- Are there three comings of the Lord Jesus, when Jesus only mentioned two comings? Are there, even, four comings of the Lord Jesus? Jesus coming in Revelation 11, at the Seventh Trumpet, Jesus coming in, what, Revelation 20:4, Jesus coming in Revelation 19, Jesus coming after the Millennium? That makes five. This makes no sense.

How could that possibly make sense? Who could make sense out of that?

- How, on earth, could the Seventh Trumpet sound - which is the last Trumpet, most agree, my own self included - over a thousand years before death, the last enemy, is finally destroyed?

- Augustine, and others, have argued that Pre-Millenialists invariably engage in such things as 'bacchanal feasts', believing Jesus will literally reign with the Lord Jesus Christ in the flesh. Therefore, if they believe this, they must be wrong, because the 'Kingdom is not of flesh and blood, but of peace, love, and joy in the Spirit'.

So, the Millennium can not happen in the future, in any near literal sense of the word stronger then it is happening today.

Where, amillenialists believe, they reign with Christ not physically, but spiritually.

- Many of the most vocal pre-millenialists believe they will be literally, physically lifted up into Heaven, 'leaving behind everyone else' at the ascension of the two witnesses, or shortly thereafter, at the blowing of the Seventh Trumpet, in Revelation 11. But, the Kingdom of Heaven comes to earth.

- After the Millennium, you see the City of God descend from Heaven to earth. After that, you see the City on earth, where Christ lives. How could any of that happen then, and yet, not during the Millennium? If it does happen during the Millennium, then there are parts of Revelation which are out of order, thereby destroying the strict, chronological order pre-millenialists demand.

- Is it not right for the 'Christian nations' to consider the kingdoms of Communism, Islam, and other totaliarian kingdoms invalid and at rebellion to the 'Christian nations'? Was it not justified to go to war against the Nazis and Communists? Even, justified by God, Christ, and Heaven?

- While anyone can point out the many flaws of colonialism and expansionism, was there really any other way to get to where we are now, in history? And who can say this is really bad, how we live and are in the Christian world, 'the first world'? Does God have some problem with the internet or television? Modern technology? What great sins could be there, that the Beast, False Prophet, and 'Babylon' are all present today? That today's world might be thoroughly corrupt? Are there not, now, billions of Christians -- by any token of standard?

- The 'beheading' and 'first resurrection' of Revelation 20, the one which documents the Millennium could all be metaphorical. After all, is not one who is beheaded as one who believes blindly and gives up their capacity for free, independent, critical thinking?

Could it not be argued that the 'first resurrection' is something that continually happens across the amillenialist Millenium? That anyone 'beheaded' by the Beast and False Prophet may come to Christ during this time period, be restored to right mind, and experience the 'first resurrection'?

my answer to this is simple I guess. I am in the pre group. Why? That is just how I interpret Revelation 20. By the Holy Spirit residing in us, I believe that Jesus is here. He is here spiritually already. The second coming will just be a physical coming that prompts the happenings to begin. I think that many people get so thrown off by direct times that the scriptures state. I hold the belief that God's time just isn't our time. His thousand years are a different span of time than what our thousand years would be is what I believe. I hope I am making sense. Revelation is a book that I find so hard to both grasp and discuss. But I am firmly in the pre camp. I have to keep things simple with this! But, I am going to follow your thread and the discussion to see what others think and what they have learned.
 
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Is Satan one of the angels who sinned?


No. Those verses speak of a certain group of angels that left heaven and committed terrible sins on the Earth and were locked away until it is time to be cast into the LOF.
 
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