Pre tribulation is awful grammar

BABerean2 · Nov 10, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Are you trying to tell me that you don't know the difference between the times of Gentiles and the fulness of the Gentiles? We just covered this.

Also, it appears you left something out. I'll point it out for you.
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

If they were the same time period, that could kill your Two Peoples of God doctrine, and your pretrib doctrine at the same time.
It would be best for your side if you claim they are in no way related...

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Col_1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
(He is also the firstborn from the dead, and head of the New Covenant church in Hebrews 12:22-24.)

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JacksBratt · Nov 10, 2018

keras said:
Not everyone who darkens the door of a Church is a Christian, Jesus is coming with His winnowing fork in His hand, He will sort out who are His people from the 'chaff'.

True enough. However, studies show that in 2012 there were approximately 2.5 billion Christians. Now, I don't know what they used to indicate what determines a Christian. However, I believe that the number of God fearing Christians is still a mass of population that could not just head to Israel and be accommodated.

So, I don't believe that this is the solution to all those God fearing Christians, when the mark is mandatory.

keras said:
I believe a warning is in order. I am not judging anyone.
Those who have chosen to believe any outcome for the end times, other that what we are plainly told by the Prophets, will be shocked and terrified when what they expected didn't happen.

True enough. Anytime something of this magnitude takes place, people are shocked and terrified.

However, this does not give you license to predict how "every" person is going to behave... based on their view.

Myself, I would say something like this..."all those that are expecting to have the rapture at the end of the tribulation, will be either pleasantly surprised when it takes them away before they endure the wrath of God. Additionally, anyone that is expecting to be accounted as worthy, and is left behind, will be confused, and at a loss of what they should do."

I would be in error to say "they will be the first to take the mark"...

I am of the mindset that there are very knowledgeable and solid Christian folk that can be on totally opposite sides of this view. To assume what either would do "IF" one thing or another happens... is just plain bald faced speculation and has no merit.

keras said:
I have often pointed out what we are told to do when the Lord strikes the earth in His Day of wrath: Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21 Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. 'saved' means protected, not removed, as many prophesies confirm. Isaiah 43:2, Isaiah 41:13, Jeremiah 17:7-8, 1 Corinthians 10:13

I mean no offense, but "I have often pointed out" and quoting scripture to support a view.. is quite common for people on both sides of this topic.

keras said:
As ethnicity has no value or interest to God since Jesus came and opened Salvation to all who would receive it, the 144,000 are selected from the vast multitude, Revelation 7:9-14, by Jesus, revealed to His people, Revelation 14:1.
They are divided into 12 groups, named after the 12 sons of Jacob. Proved by Isaiah 66:21, where the Lord takes Levi's out of the people from many nations. All the faithful, born again Christians.

I am fairly certain that it has been pointed out, in this thread, that biblically, these will be people "of" those lineages.

Of course salvation is for any ethnicity.. however, some things are strictly for the Jewish people.

From what I understand, in Gods eyes, from the time of Christ's work on Calvary, up until the time of the tribulation, there is no Jew or Gentile. However after the age of grace ends... the Jewish people become a separate group once again.[/quote][/QUOTE]

JacksBratt · Nov 10, 2018

jgr said:
Dispensationally, every unregenerate Jew who has ever lived, including Judas Iscariot and the Jewish leaders responsible for Christ's death, will be saved after the rapture. Zechariah 12:10-14. That's rather more than 144,000.

Interesting

jgr · Nov 10, 2018

JacksBratt said:
Interesting

True, except to the dispens, none of whom can explain it.

Biblewriter · Nov 10, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
I doubt he did, but I will not speak for him.

This is total garbage and false. Why do you keep making these false claims? Why do you waste your life making this stuff up or repeating what the blind claim to keep their failed doctrine alive? How many times do you have to be told that it's all about timing? God will deal with Israel after the church is raptured. They will become jealous and realize that Jesus is the Messiah. And how much MORE THEIR FULLNESS. Nothing you can do about it. It will happen. Deal with it.

No, it is a doctrine that says after the fullness of the Gentiles come in, the Jews will become jealous and realize that Christ is the Messiah. And how much more .........their fullness. Exactly like it says in the word. No twisting of scripture is going to change these facts.

Gee. God said their are Gentiles and the 12 tribes. I believe Him. It's the same covenant for salvation, believing in Gods son as Messiah......savior. It's only after the church is gone that the Jews become jealous and believe.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

That's because they don't understand that the coming in Matthew 24 is not the second coming when Christ sets up his kingdom on earth. It is His coming for the rapture of the 12 tribes. It is the gathering where believers are gathered from heaven (the church) and earth (the 12 tribes). They are the great multitude that gathers for the marriage supper in heaven.

However, this changes nothing as regarding the salvation of the His chosen people. He will keep His promise even as He kept his promise to restore the nation of Israel. This totally kills replacement theology, and only the stubborn and blind continue to believe this false doctrine.

Oh this is rich. What you are using for proof..........proves you wrong. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold.........them must I also bring. Sounds like Gentiles and Jews being brought into one fold. Do you have any other proofs? I would go with something that doesn't prove you wrong. That's going to be tough.
John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

There is going to be a third temple. There is no speculation it's fact.

Do not waste your time disproving what this poster says. You can give him undeniable proof that what he is posting is not true, and he will just post it again. He has done this repeatedly, even after being confronted with undeniable proof that the article he is posting contained outright lies.

Biblewriter · Nov 10, 2018

jgr said:
Dispensationally, every unregenerate Jew who has ever lived, including Judas Iscariot and the Jewish leaders responsible for Christ's death, will be saved after the rapture. Zechariah 12:10-14. That's rather more than 144,000.

This is a totally false accusation. Dispensationalists most certainly teach nothing even remotely resembling this nonsense.

jgr · Nov 10, 2018

Biblewriter said:
This is a totally false accusation. Dispensationalists most certainly teach nothing even remotely resembling this nonsense.

So tell us what they teach.

Choose Wisely · Nov 10, 2018

jgr said:
So tell us what they teach.

Google it.

Choose Wisely · Nov 10, 2018

Biblewriter said:
Do not waste your time disproving what this poster says. You can give him undeniable proof that what he is posting is not true, and he will just post it again. He has done this repeatedly, even after being confronted with undeniable proof that the article he is posting contained outright lies.

I keep waiting for his conscience to kick in as I can't comprehend how anyone would knowingly lead others astray from the truth. I just keep knocking him down and he just keeps getting up. That would be a wonderful trait if he was right. The fact that he has to know that he is wrong, and just keeps posting this nonsense is troubling, as he will answer for it. All of his efforts are a waste of time. I hope someday he will stop wasting his life and use his time to lead others to Christ.

jgr · Nov 10, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Google it.

It says exactly what I said.

You didn't know?

BABerean2 · Nov 10, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
I keep waiting for his conscience to kick in as I can't comprehend how anyone would knowingly lead others astray from the truth. I just keep knocking him down and he just keeps getting up. That would be a wonderful trait if he was right. The fact that he has to know that he is wrong, and just keeps posting this nonsense is troubling, as he will answer for it. All of his efforts are a waste of time. I hope someday he will stop wasting his life and use his time to lead others to Christ.

What does an organization dedicated to Jewish evangelism think about your Two Peoples of God doctrine?

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Choose Wisely · Nov 10, 2018

BABerean2 said:
What does an organization dedicated to Jewish evangelism think about your Two Peoples of God doctrine?

.

I totally agree with them. However, it doesn't change the truth or Gods plan. Since what they say is correct does that mean that the Bible wrong?

And there's your answer. When will you FACE THE TRUTH? Replacement Theology was and is wrong.

Biblewriter · Nov 10, 2018

jgr said:
It says exactly what I said.

You didn't know?

You cannot provide even one link to any teacher respected by Dispensationalists in general who has ever said anything even approximately like what you said.

Biblewriter · Nov 10, 2018

jgr said:
So tell us what they teach.

We indeed teach that "all Israel will be saved," because the scriptures explicitly state that. But that only means all of Israel who are living at the time that happens. And you have seen repeated posts made by myself, clearly pointing out that when Messiah finally comes, He will purge out all the rebels from among them. And ALL the rest will turn to Him in true faith. So, although all Israel will indeed be saved, that salvation will come about in the same way anyone is saved today, by a true and living faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

And not a single respected dispensational teacher holds any doctrine at variance with that.

BABerean2 · Nov 10, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
And there's your answer. When will you FACE THE TRUTH? Replacement Theology was and is wrong.

You have replaced the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

You have replaced the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

You have replaced the "son" who is the "heir" to the land in Matthew chapter 21, with those who reject him as the "chief cornerstone".

Who is really the one teaching "Replacement Theology"?

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BABerean2 · Nov 10, 2018

Biblewriter said:
We indeed teach that "all Israel will be saved," because the scriptures explicitly state that. But that only means all of Israel who are living at the time that happens.

You left out the word "so" (Greek-"houto"), which is an adverb of manner, instead of an adverb of timing, in Romans 11:26.

Do you think Paul talked about the "remnant" in Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 9:27, and Romans 11:1-5, and then he changed his mind in Romans 11:26?

.

jgr · Nov 11, 2018

Biblewriter said:
We indeed teach that "all Israel will be saved," because the scriptures explicitly state that. But that only means all of Israel who are living at the time that happens. And you have seen repeated posts made by myself, clearly pointing out that when Messiah finally comes, He will purge out all the rebels from among them. And ALL the rest will turn to Him in true faith. So, although all Israel will indeed be saved, that salvation will come about in the same way anyone is saved today, by a true and living faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

And not a single respected dispensational teacher holds any doctrine at variance with that.

Zechariah 12
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Dispensationally,

None of "Israel who are living at that time" in the future will have pierced Him. But Judas, Caiaphas, and the Jewish rulers are those who pierced Him, and they are those who will be present, and who will look upon Him, and mourn for Him, and repent.

And the spirit of grace and supplications is poured upon the house of David. Is that not the house of David in the era of Judas, Caiaphas, and the Jewish rulers?

And if the house of David from that era is saved, why is not the house of David of all time saved?

Why would the God who loves Israel not save all Israel of all time?

Or are Judas, Caiaphas, the Jewish rulers, and "Israel who are living at that time", the only ones deserving of salvation?

The rebels are purged in Zechariah 13. But they are first saved in Zechariah 12.

keras · Nov 11, 2018

JacksBratt said:
True enough. However, studies show that in 2012 there were approximately 2.5 billion Christians. Now, I don't know what they used to indicate what determines a Christian. However, I believe that the number of God fearing Christians is still a mass of population that could not just head to Israel and be accommodated.

So, I don't believe that this is the solution to all those God fearing Christians, when the mark is mandatory.

You seem to have missed reading quite a lot of Bible prophecy:
Isaiah 26:15 ...You have enlarged the borders of the holy Land. Micah 7:11
Isaiah 49:14-21 The Lord has not forgotten His Land. He makes it a waste, but now many people come to live there. People born to the Kingdom from far away, the children of God. Romans 9:24-26
God does promise to regenerate the holy Land, make it again 'a garden of Eden'. Ezekiel 36:8, Isaiah 29:17, Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 32:15, +

The 'mark of the beast' will not be required for the Citizens of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5 We will not be a part of the OWG. Proved by how the OWG leader comes to Beulah and negotiates a 7 year peace treaty.
I believe he will do that soon after the Lord destroys the huge Northern army, led by a man called Gog, which will come down to pillage and loot Beulah; a country without any visible protection; walls, armies, anything, EXCEPT their faith in God to protect them. This He does! Ezekiel 38:18-23, Joel 2:20

keras · Nov 11, 2018

jgr said:
Zechariah 12
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Dispensationally,

None of "Israel who are living at that time" in the future will have pierced Him. But Judas, Caiaphas, and the Jewish rulers are those who pierced Him, and they are those who will be present, and who will look upon Him, and mourn for Him, and repent.

And the spirit of grace and supplications is poured upon the house of David. Is that not the house of David in the era of Judas, Caiaphas, and the Jewish rulers?

And if the house of David from that era is saved, why is not the house of David of all time saved?

Why would the God who loves Israel not save all Israel of all time?

Or are Judas, Caiaphas, and the Jewish rulers the only ones deserving of salvation?

The rebels are purged in Zechariah 13. But they are first saved in Zechariah 12.

The question is: are the people who call themselves Jews all of Israel? Can any of them prove their ancestry to Judah, or any of the 12 tribes?
As a matter of historical fact, the Jewish ancestry is very questionable and even in the Jewish Encyclopedia it is stated that their origins are Edomic.
So to blindly assign the Promises of God to them, is an error, doubly proved by the Bible truth of God's Promises all being fulfilled thru Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:20

Choose Wisely · Nov 11, 2018

BABerean2 said:
You have replaced the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

No..........you say that I have replaced the one seed with the many seeds. The seed is Christ. He is the one seed. Faith in Jesus the Christ is the requirement for salvation. For you to say that I believe different is you speaking falsely.

You have replaced Israel with the church. Am I speaking falsely?

BABerean2 said:
You have replaced the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

You saying that does not make it the truth. You are speaking falsely. It appears that God has a plan for both the Jew and the Gentile. The Jew and Gentile both are required to have faith in the Christ for salvation. It's all about His timing. We know the end result.........how much more their fulness. That truth must sicken you as it shoots down all your false accusations.
Roman 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

BABerean2 said:
You have replaced the "son" who is the "heir" to the land in Matthew chapter 21, with those who reject him as the "chief cornerstone".

He is bringing the sheep that are not of this fold to join the sheep that are in the fold. There will be one fold. The requirement is faith in Jesus the Messiah. And at such time as the church is raptured to heaven, Israel will become jealous and realize Jesus is the Messiah. God keeps his promises.
John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

BABerean2 said:
Who is really the one teaching "Replacement Theology"?

You are the one teaching replacement theology. You have replaced Israel with the Church. Then you run around and make false accusations that have absolutely nothing to do with what I believe. You twist scripture to justify a failed belief of replacement theology. So God made promises to Israel and the fact that there was no Israel for almost 2000 years was the source of your religion. And then the promises of God started coming to pass. Instead of giving God credit for keeping his word you start making excuses.

One of the most amazing things I see among you characters is all the DNA talk. Like God can't tell the 12 tribes from the Gentiles because of what DNA says. God knows ALL THINGS. He is not confused.

Pre tribulation is awful grammar

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