Is assurance of salvation possible?

☦Marius☦ said:

"with fear and trembling" would seem to denote the opposite of assurance would it not?

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Just a thought:
It might be useful to examine the 3 other instances of this phrase in Paul's writings:
1 Corinthians 2:3, 2 Corinthians 7:15, Ephesians 6:5.
Paul seems to be using the phrase as a figure of speech rather than as discreet instances of the words "fear" and "trembling".

Also, the use of the word "Therefore" at the start of v.12 indicates that we need to read it in light of what comes before, that is, a picture of the humility and exaltation of Christ as a parallel to our own certain exaltation as identified in v.13.

I hope that is helpful in the discussion. Context is key.

Dorothy Mae said:

Ypu have obviously not repented of your deeds. If you want God to restore you, you will have to change your attitude. You cannot contine in this kind of attitude if you want God to answer your prayers. It does not matter how much you fast and pray with attitudes like this. Those who have repented are humble and consider others better than themselves instead of considering that the self is better than others.

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Very ironic coming from you.

Dorothy Mae said:

Ypu have obviously not repented of your deeds. If you want God to restore you, you will have to change your attitude.

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How is he going to do that? Because you are saying it is impossible for him to repent. He can't be saved by works, you know. Doing good isn't going to save him; why should he do good if God has permanently rejected him? He might as well do whatever he wants for the rest of his life.

Invalidusername said:

Very ironic coming from you.

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Fasing and praying asking God for forgiveness will do no good if you do not repent. These last posts have shed a great deal of light on the reason for your situation.

justbyfaith said:

How is he going to do that? Because you are saying it is impossible for him to repent.

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I never said it is impossible for him to repent. When do you think I said that? It is NEVER impossible for anyone to repent. Even atheists repent of things but they call it apologizing. Anyone can do this at anytime.

He can't be saved by works, you know. Doing good isn't going to save him; why should he do good if God has permanently rejected him? He might as well do whatever he wants for the rest of his life.

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I never said he can be saved by works. Do you think repenting of sin is a WORK? Doing good seemed to impress Jesus and when the tax collector said he would return all that he had wrongly taken with interest (clearly a work and actually some work) Jesus pronounced him saved (more or less.) So God disagrees with you to some degree if you think repentance is a work that does no good.

justbyfaith said:

God knows the state of his heart better than any one of us. Shouldn't we give him the benefit of the doubt; and also encourage him to return to the Lord?

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He claims he is trying with fasting and praying but to no avail. I am not discouraging him from this but acknowledging that I believe him. It is interesting that with time, a person reveals their heart. The mouth speaks (or keyboard in this case) and the wise and discerning see the inside. His attitude reflected in his posts do not indicate any kind of repentance. He deeply regrets what HE lost. He does not regret what he enjoyed or did. Not enough as something is missing.

What if your statements discourage him from even seeking; and if he had only sought the Lord, it would have been possible to return? His blood will be on your head if that discouragement is never overcome.

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Ah, i see I answered this but OK, I do so again. Those who believe OSAS and tell others that they can never lose their salvation will answer for all those who went forth, base on their words, and did as they wanted and lost their salvation.

Dorothy Mae said:

Fasing and praying asking God for forgiveness will do no good if you do not repent. These last posts have shed a great deal of light on the reason for your situation.

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Yeah because I called you out on your pride. Sorry but I am not prideful at all. You sure seem to know the condition of my heart but get furious when I diagnose yours. The hypocrisy.

Invalidusername said:

Yeah because I called you out on your pride. Sorry but I am not prideful at all. You sure seem to know the condition of my heart but get furious when I diagnose yours. The hypocrisy.

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Not at all. You see, I am not the least upset and so your accusations run off of me like water on a ducks back. But I asked you to warn others and you said that since you were not warned, why should you warn others.

The answer is that you want to at least try to do things for others that please God. I can see why you resent the lies that you were told. This is understandable. But you need to forgive those who taught you Once Saved Always Saved as this doctrine is the reason you are in the state you are in. So you need to forgive them. Warning others is a step you can do to please God. You want him to forgive you, show fruits of repentance. The attitude towards others is not one of humility and repentance. I mean it is not a matter that affects me personally but it is some advise. You want God to answer your prayers, you can at least try to do as you know he wants you to do. The city of Ninevah repented hoping for mercy. They got some. Your posts do not reflect sorrow for your deeds but just sorrow for the loss (outcome) you experienced as a result.

I repeat. You are sorry for the loss you experience. Anyone can understand this. But you need to be sorry for what you did. That is reflected in how you behave towards others.

Dorothy Mae said:

Not at all. You see, I am not the least upset and so your accusations run off of me like water on a ducks back. But I asked you to warn others and you said that since you were not warned, why should you warn others.

The answer is that you want to at least try to do things for others that please God. I can see why you resent the lies that you were told. This is understandable. But you need to forgive those who taught you Once Saved Always Saved as this doctrine is the reason you are in the state you are in. So you need to forgive them. Warning others is a step you can do to please God. You want him to forgive you, show fruits of repentance. The attitude towards others is not one of humility and repentance. I mean it is not a matter that affects me personally but it is some advise. You want God to answer your prayers, you can at least try to do as you know he wants you to do. The city of Ninevah repented hoping for mercy. They got some. Your posts do not reflect sorrow for your deeds but just sorrow for the loss (outcome) you experienced as a result.

I repeat. You are sorry for the loss you experience. Anyone can understand this. But you need to be sorry for what you did. That is reflected in how you behave towards others.

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Trust me I've tried for months now. I am on the verge of giving up.

Invalidusername said:

Trust me I've tried for months now. I am on the verge of giving up.

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Try telling God you will warn others so that they do not fall into the trap you did. Love others as you love yourself, if you cannot love God. This is not beyond you. You are wanting the old feelings and so on back. Just want to do good to others and consider others better than yourself. This is not beyond you.

Dorothy Mae said:

Try telling God you will warn others so that they do not fall into the trap you did. Love others as you love yourself, if you cannot love God. This is not beyond you. You are wanting the old feelings and so on back. Just want to do good to others and consider others better than yourself. This is not beyond you.

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My deeds cannot save me. Either God will forgive and restore me or He won't. I can work all day and all night but it will never obtain God's forgiveness.

One thing that is different is my heart is no longer pure. Even before I was saved I had a purer heart than what I have now. It's like I want to change my heart but am unable to. I have searched in the deepest recesses of my heart and found nothing. There is no love, empathy, compassion, or desire to do the right thing. Everything I do is driven by an intellectual desire to be restored but it is pointless since it is only the heart where things truly matter.

"Well then you should just change your attitude!" I've tried and I've prayed repeatedly for God to give me a new heart but nothing happens. I even went out of my way to forgive people who hurt me, show love to others, witness to unconverted people, and etc. and nothing happens. Deeds cannot save you.

Invalidusername said:

My deeds cannot save me. Either God will forgive and restore me or He won't. I can work all day and all night but it will never obtain God's forgiveness.

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When the tax collector said he would return what was wrongly taken, Jesus pronounced him saved. Repentance is something we do and salvation depends upon it.

One thing that is different is my heart is no longer pure. Even before I was saved I had a purer heart than what I have now. It's like I want to change my heart but am unable to. I have searched in the deepest recesses of my heart and found nothing. There is no love, empathy, compassion, or desire to do the right thing. Everything I do is driven by an intellectual desire to be restored but it is pointless since it is only the heart where things truly matter.

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The intellect is also called to love God. Do you see that here you admit you would like to have a pure heart again. You want something for you. This is not repentance for deeds done but what you lost or did to yourself. They are not the same thing.

"Well then you should just change your attitude!" I've tried and I've prayed repeatedly for God to give me a new heart but nothing happens. I even went out of my way to forgive people who hurt me, show love to others, witness to unconverted people, and etc. and nothing happens. Deeds cannot save you.

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Do not try to witness to others. You k now you do not have his spirit within you anymore. Do not try to work for your salvation. When you see wrong ways in your deeds, stop your heart. I sometimes see wrong attitudes in my too and I do not try to change the attitude, I just tell it that it will not have any say in what I do or say. You cannot change your heart but you can change what you do. Do to others as you would like done to you. Start there.

This will not save you. But it might lead to repentance. I hate to say it but it sometimes happens that when we suffer what we have done to others, now as the victim, then we see more clearly what we did. Do you want some brethren to deliver you to satan for the chance of salvation of the soul? I have no idea how this works but maybe some do. I have heard that these kind usually are saved. And when Paul talks about it, the person was a Christian and in the church before. (Otherwise makes no sense.)

Just some thoughts. And please do not focus on me. I once walked away from the Lord in anger but returned after some months. My words to you have nothing to do with me at all.

Dorothy Mae said:

When the tax collector said he would return what was wrongly taken, Jesus pronounced him saved. Repentance is something we do and salvation depends upon it.
The intellect is also called to love God. Do you see that here you admit you would like to have a pure heart again. You want something for you. This is not repentance for deeds done but what you lost or did to yourself. They are not the same thing.
Do not try to witness to others. You k now you do not have his spirit within you anymore. Do not try to work for your salvation. When you see wrong ways in your deeds, stop your heart. I sometimes see wrong attitudes in my too and I do not try to change the attitude, I just tell it that it will not have any say in what I do or say. You cannot change your heart but you can change what you do. Do to others as you would like done to you. Start there.

This will not save you. But it might lead to repentance. I hate to say it but it sometimes happens that when we suffer what we have done to others, now as the victim, then we see more clearly what we did. Do you want some brethren to deliver you to satan for the chance of salvation of the soul? I have no idea how this works but maybe some do. I have heard that these kind usually are saved. And when Paul talks about it, the person was a Christian and in the church before. (Otherwise makes no sense.)

Just some thoughts. And please do not focus on me. I once walked away from the Lord in anger but returned after some months. My words to you have nothing to do with me at all.

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The problem is if the spirit is no longer with me, there's no going back. There's no getting saved then unsaved then saved then unsaved and so on. You either get saved and remain to the end or become an apostate. Apostasy is irrevocable. It's the unpardonable sin. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Sinning with full knowledge of the truth.

Btw you tell me to warn others BUT not to witness. That's contradiction. I also am in an unique position to witness to people who have zero access to the bible and zero knowledge of God. I think that was God's plan for me all along if I had not messed it all up. I now see clearly how God had established me in very unusual circumstances for a purpose. At first I was blinded by anger and bitterness so I missed His calling for my life. Not going to let that happen again.

Also you don't seem to understand, I am not trying to restore my heart for the sake of restoring my heart. I am trying to restore my heart so then I can truly repent. The way my heart is now, there's no repentance possible. Repentance can only work if my heart is in the right condition. I am too blinded now because my heart is too hard.

Also handing me over to Satan will not work since it only occurs when someone is currently engaging in continuous unrepentant sin. I am not doing that.

Invalidusername said:

The problem is if the spirit is no longer with me, there's no going back. There's no getting saved then unsaved then saved then unsaved and so on. You either get saved and remain to the end or become an apostate. Apostasy is irrevocable. It's the unpardonable sin. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Sinning with full knowledge of the truth.

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Well, if that is how you see it what can anyone say?

Btw you tell me to warn others BUT not to witness. That's contradiction.

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Warning believers not to neglect their salvation lest they lose it is not he same as telling unbelievers they need to be saved. There is no annointing on your words since you yourself say you are not a believer. I do not see what good you are doing.

I also am in an unique position to witness to people who have zero access to the bible and zero knowledge of God. I think that was God's plan for me all along if I had not messed it all up. I now see clearly how God had established me in very unusual circumstances for a purpose. At first I was blinded by anger and bitterness so I missed His calling for my life. Not going to let that happen again.

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OK, well, then do so.

Also you don't seem to understand, I am not trying to restore my heart for the sake of restoring my heart. I am trying to restore my heart so then I can truly repent. The way my heart is now, there's no repentance possible. Repentance can only work if my heart is in the right condition. I am too blinded now because my heart is too hard.

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I see no scripture that says your heart has to first be in a certain place to repent. Do you not feel any regret for the damage you have done to others? I mean I think you do, right? That is a start for repentance.

Also handing me over to Satan will not work since it only occurs when someone is currently engaging in continuous unrepentant sin. I am not doing that.

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So you do not sin anymore? I am confused. Do you repent or not?

Dorothy Mae said:

Well, if that is how you see it what can anyone say?Warning believers not to neglect their salvation lest they lose it is not he same as telling unbelievers they need to be saved. There is no annointing on your words since you yourself say you are not a believer. I do not see what good you are doing. OK, well, then do so.
I see no scripture that says your heart has to first be in a certain place to repent. Do you not feel any regret for the damage you have done to others? I mean I think you do, right? That is a start for repentance.
So you do not sin anymore? I am confused. Do you repent or not?

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I ceased sinning but that is not repentance. Repentance is NOT just "change of mind" like many simplistic people say it is. Repentance is when you truly understand the evil you have done and from genuine sorrow turn from it. My repentance is entirely intellectual. There is no emotions behind it. I wish there were and I constantly try to force myself to feel sorry but I am unable to.

Also about your thing that "my words have no anointing". This is not something you actually know. Honestly you do not know for 100% if I have the Holy Spirit or not. Nobody can know that for certain until God reveals it to the individual. I would bring up the story about Paul and the believers who maliciously preached about Jesus in order to get Paul in trouble. Paul simply says:

"But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice," Phil 1:18

So clearly God can even use people who preach Christ with false motives so why couldn't He use me? That's putting serious limitations on God.

Also that's not how I see it. That's how the Bible says it is(about being saved and unsaved and saved).

Hebrews 6:4-6
2 Peter 2:19-22
Hebrews 10:26-31
John 15:5-7
Matthew 13:18-23
1 John 5:16-17

Specifically 1 John says that if someone does a sin that leads to death(spiritual death) there is no reason to even pray for it. The person is done.

I know we want to believe that God is truly merciful(and He is) but He is also a very harsh God. Eternal torment is harsh no matter how you want to twist it around.

Romans 11:22

" Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

We tend to say "God is love" but that is a 100% false claim. God has love. God has wrath. Those are attributes that God possesses. He is NOT an attribute itself. However God is love in the sense that there is no love outside of God since only God Himself can provide us with true love. God has just as much wrath as He does love. God's love is beyond our comprehension but so also is His wrath. Unfortunately some people will be vessels of wrath in order for God to display His glory and some people will be vessels of mercy in order for God to display His grace and also glory.

Romans 9:21-23

"21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel 1for honorable use and another for common use?

22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,"

I know you believe 100% free will from what I've read of your posts around this site but the reality is while we have free will, there is also God's sovereignty that comes into play. God could've prevented me from falling away. It was entirely 100% in His power to do so but He didn't. Same with Judas. God stops certain people from falling away(King David) and allows some others to continue in their sins(King Saul). Some of it depends on free will and some of it depends on God simply allowing it to happen. God is all powerful and has complete control. He does not exercise it completely but He certainly exercises it more than we give Him credit for.

Here's an example of genuine repentance: Acts 2:37

"37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”"

Invalidusername said:

Here's an example of genuine repentance: Acts 2:37

"37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”"

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Notice they asked what they should DO, not feel.

David Cabrera said:

I would say probably not since God is the final judge or I might become an Apostate. What do you think?

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The answer does not come from what people think, but what the Word of God says.

Jesus taught us both the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

But first, we must establish WHEN a person actually possesses eternal life, which is not when they leave this life and enter eternity itself.

Jesus taught that "whoever believes has (present tense) eternal life in John 5:24 and 6:47.

The apostle John reiterated that same teaching in 1 John 5:11 and 13. Note particularly that in v.11 John says "has given us eternal life", so the argument about not having eternal life until eternity is refuted.

Now that the issue of WHEN one possesses eteranl life has been established, let's look at the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Notice that I have color coded the words, for ease in following my explanation.

The red words indicate the CAUSE of possessing eternal life, which is Jesus Christ himself. He is the One who gives the gift of eternal life.

The blue words indicate the EFFECT of possessing eternal life, which is to never perish.

Notice also that Jesus provided no conditions between the giving of eternal life and the result of having (effect) eternal life.

So, we could say that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Now, some will quote v.27 as a condition for never perishing; that is, the believer must "follow Him". But there is no language of either verse that legitimately allows for such an argument.

In fact, v.27 is simply a description of Jesus' sheep. It's what they DO. It's not HOW they become His sheep.

Jesus addressed how to become one of His sheep back in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Jesus used a metaphor to indicate that saving faith in Him results in being saved, which also means having eternal life.

Dorothy Mae said:

Notice they asked what they should DO, not feel.

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And the answer was to repent and believe.

Not do good deeds.

Invalidusername said:

And the answer was to repent and believe.

Not do good deeds.

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Believe for them was more than give mental agreement. They actually joined the church and changed their ways. For the first century christians, believing meant a change in behaviour. For modern man it merely means giving mental agreement without any change in behaviour lest one be relying on "works" (heaven forbid!!)