The great divide...

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,277
5,237
45
Oregon
✟952,787.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
It is written...

5 "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"
(2 Peter 2:5-6).
(Matthew 10:15, Matthew 11:23-24, Mark 6:11, Luke 10:12) (from a quick BLB key word search, cause I'm no good with numbers, at least memorizing them, words though, lines...?)

But "see", I can do this too, just pick out what I want and ignore the rest... Except I really don't consider myself of any particular point of view on a lot of things anymore...

Here are the ones I did not include, that I am fully aware of and know about (Luke 17:29 and around it) (2 Peter 2:6, Jude 1:7, Luke 13:1-5)...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,277
5,237
45
Oregon
✟952,787.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
It is written,

5 "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." (Luke 1:5-6).

3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."
(Revelation 14:3-5).
God made them that way, probably for John the Baptist, their Son... And, I don't think they thought of themselves that way in order to be that way either; cause that is the wrong way... I bet it was much more humble than that...

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,277
5,237
45
Oregon
✟952,787.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
(Matthew 10:15, Matthew 11:23-24, Mark 6:11, Luke 10:12) (from a quick BLB key word search, cause I'm no good with numbers, at least memorizing them, words though, lines...?)

But "see", I can do this too, just pick out what I want and ignore the rest... Except I really don't consider myself of any particular point of view on a lot of things anymore...

Here are the ones I did not include, that I am fully aware of and know about (Luke 17:29 and around it) (2 Peter 2:6, Jude 1:7, Luke 13:1-5)...

Anyway,

God Bless!
I don't usually pull out the "big guns" cause I do not like to hide behind the big guns, but... If you insist...

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Danielwright2311

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 28, 2018
2,219
1,358
50
Sacorro NM
✟110,365.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Confessing sin (1 John 1:9) is in view (or context) of forsaking sin (1 John 1:7, 1 John 2:1, 1 John 2:3-4).
For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).
In Matthew 12:41, Jesus says the Ninevites will rise up and judge this generation (which one? This one. Us!!!!) because the Ninevites had repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would learn that the King of the Ninevites told his people to do two very important things.

#1. Cry out unto God (Repentance).
#2. Forsake their evil ways (The Natural Fruits of Repentance).​

It was not until the Ninevites had forsaken their wicked ways that God decided to not bring wrath or judgment upon them anymore (Thereby proving that their repentance was genuine). Yet, people today think they can avert God's wrath or judgment by not forsaking their evil ways. They think they can sin and still be saved. They think all believers are sinners (in their present walk with God). Yet, God's Word says be ye holy because I am holy. You canot be holy and yet also be a sinner. It is an oxymoron. One is either being righteous or one is being unrighteous. The way we live determines what side we are on (See 1 John 3:10, 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:8, John 3:20).

To see this part of the story in Jonah 3, see: Jonah 3:6-10.

Why are you preaching to me? I already know all this, there is no scripture you can quoit me I have not read, and I belive everything you just showed me.

I think you are preaching to the wrong poster.

God bless you in your work.
 
Upvote 0

NW82

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2017
831
533
42
Chicago, IL
✟80,336.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Libertarian
All of these posts telling others how wrong they are....I'm waiting for the person to tell me they are without sin and just as spotless as Christ, because apparently there seem to be a bunch of holier than thou people out here. Let me make this very clear NO ONE HERE IS GOD, WILL EVER BE GOD, EVER BE ON HIS LEVEL. Every single person here has sinned, and if you think you haven't you're a fool.
 
Upvote 0

Danielwright2311

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 28, 2018
2,219
1,358
50
Sacorro NM
✟110,365.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
All of these posts telling others how wrong they are....I'm waiting for the person to tell me they are without sin and just as spotless as Christ, because apparently there seem to be a bunch of holier than thou people out here. Let me make this very clear NO ONE HERE IS GOD, WILL EVER BE GOD, EVER BE ON HIS LEVEL. Every single person here has sinned, and if you think you haven't you're a fool.

Preach on, lol, preach on.
 
Upvote 0

Devin P

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2017
1,280
631
31
Michigan
✟99,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There is a rift, a divide among Christians, one party says it is impossible to be sinlessly perfect and not ever sin at all, ect, ect, and seriously doubt anyone else who thinks otherwise, especially those who say or may claim to have achieved it themselves, these ones this party hates...

The other party worries about this making, even people like them, "give up" on a battle and struggle against sins and wonder what the point or even trying is, why not just give into every single impulse to sin and completely give up on the struggle against sin... They hate others that they perceive as sinners who sin way more than they do, and they hate them because they can seem to get away with more, ect, and accuse them of using Grace as a license to sin, but are really upset with them because they don't think they put up any kind of fight or struggle against sin...

The former party (above) are known as Grace, and faith people, I guess you could say, while the latter party is considered like Law, and works people...

I think this is a great divide, so, can we solve or at least resolve it...?

About the latter's concerns, In a favorite Star Trek TNG episode of mine, called "The Offspring" Data creates a child android, her name is Lal... She is upset about something and ask her Father, Data, why do you still try to be human or like humans if it's impossible...?" Cause for a mechanical man, or android, to become like a, especially flesh and blood human, is considered impossible even in the age of Star Trek... So, she says/asks, "why"...? Data says that, "It does not matter if we ever fully meet our eventual goal (100% sinless perfection), (or to be like God) the "effort" (trying, struggling, fighting) (against sin) (trying to be like God) yields it own rewards (from God, or the way God has designed it) (to work)...

"The effort always yields it's own rewards"

Then he said, "We must strive (or struggle) to more (or better) than what we are" (or were yesterday)...

And we should not let that go...

Just because it is nigh impossible, does not mean we should not try or fight or struggle or put up a fight, or whatever (for it) (the goal) (of 100% sinless perfection) (and not even fight or struggle with sin anymore)...

God Bless!
I can't recognize which is which. Who are you saying is grace based and who are you saying is law based?

Idk. I'm a Christian that thinks we're still to obey the law. (Not all 613, because not even Jesus kept all 613) But I don't think that makes me sinless. On the contrary. We all slip up sometimes, and when we do, we have an advocate. But I love my Father, and He considers certain things abominations and wickedness, and sin, and so out of love I fight to live according to what He calls good. According to His Will which is found in the Torah (the first five books of your bible). I fight the good fight and strive to walk perfectly before Him as our Father's before us have. Doing my best to keep the law and having my walk be perfected by faith.

I'm not counted righteous by my observance of the law, but by my faith in Him. But, as it's written, he who practices righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. This is why you have Abraham being commended by God for keeping His law, David and several kings and judges and prophets being commended for keeping it. They were considered to have walked perfectly. Not because of the law that they kept, but the faith they had. They go hand in hand. You can have faith, but without a heart of obedience, you aren't walking with Him as He desires you too. You're making the relationship about what you want, not about what He wants.

That's where I think the divide is. People have been inherited a false doctrine just as the Jews that Jesus rebuked did. The Jews of Jesus's day and ours observed something called the oral torah (talmud) and placed their traditions above God's law. In the gospels you see Jesus constantly walking out Torah, showing the Jews the bondage of vain worthless man-made traditions they were in. He freed them by showing them how to walk out Torah, and how freeing it was compared to the burdensome man-made traditions of the Jews. This is why Greeks were called slaves of Christ by Paul. Jews were free Greeks were slaves. Jews were free from extra pointless laws (having to wash your hands before eating, not healing on Sabbath) things that weren't written in Torah. And Greeks had to keep Torah, who before being saved didn't have any law they had to observe.

The doctrine we've inherited is just as false as the Jew's was back then. Man made traditions placed over Torah.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
All of these posts telling others how wrong they are....I'm waiting for the person to tell me they are without sin and just as spotless as Christ, because apparently there seem to be a bunch of holier than thou people out here. Let me make this very clear NO ONE HERE IS GOD, WILL EVER BE GOD, EVER BE ON HIS LEVEL. Every single person here has sinned, and if you think you haven't you're a fool.

A person who is walking perfectly with the Lord is not going to boast about it, friend. Just read and believe your Bible. If the Bible says that a person can be perfect, we have to believe that because that is what the Bible says (even we think it is impossible and we have not seen anyone do do). This is why we are to have faith. We believe not by sight but we trust in God's Word in what it says.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
(Matthew 10:15,

Are you just randomly quoting verses in the hope that it might refute me?

I am not sure how Matthew 10:15 helps to defend your view that King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. This verse is about a city's rejection of the gospel and how it will be exceptionally bad for them.

The reason why God raised up His Son Jesus was to bless us in turning every one of us away from our iniquities or sins.

For Acts of the Apostles 3:26 says,
“God having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”​

The gospel is tied to obedience (that follows):

Proof #1. - Romans 16:25-26.

25 “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:” (Romans 16:25-26).

This ties in nicely with:
“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;” (Hebrews 5:9).​

Proof #2. - 1 Thessalonians 1:8-9 and 1 Thessalonians 1:11-12.

8 “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;” (1 Thessalonians 1:8-9).

11 “Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thessalonians 1:11-12).

Note on 1 Thessalonians 1:8: Those who do not know God do not keep his commandments; For that person who says they knows the Lord and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (See 1 John 2:4).​

You said:
Matthew 11:23-24,

Again, not sure how this piece of Scripture helps you. This is talking about how if the miracles of Jesus were done in Sodom, it would have remained at least to the time of when Jesus spoke such words. Oh, and why was Sodom destroyed? It was destroyed because it was ungodly (i.e. they were excessively sinful). The global flood and Sodom are examples as a warning to all who would live ungodly thereafter. That is what 2 Peter 2:5-6 is saying (if you were to read and believe it).

Mark 6:11,

Are you just putting Scripture that has the word "Sodom" in it with no real purpose? Again, how does this verse refute my belief that we have to live holy as a part of the salvation process after we receive the gospel?

Luke 10:12) (from a quick BLB key word search, cause I'm no good with numbers, at least memorizing them, words though, lines...?)

If you were to keep reading in Luke 10, you would be able to see this:

25 "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."
(Luke 10:25-28).​

Summary of the verses above:

Verse 25: Lawyer asks Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life.
Verse 26. Jesus asks lawyer, how do read this within the Scriptures?
Verse 27. Lawyer quotes the two greatest commandments: To love God (with some added details), and to love your neighbor.
Verse 28. Jesus replies, you answered correctly. Do this and you will live.​

Jesus did not say, "Sorry lawyer! That is not correct! Trust in my sacrifice alone." Many Christians today will say that if they were in Jesus's place. But Jesus says, "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." (Luke 10:28).

You said:
But "see", I can do this too, just pick out what I want and ignore the rest... Except I really don't consider myself of any particular point of view on a lot of things anymore...

You did not show me the context of 2 Peter 2:5-6. You are just randomly quoting other verses with the word Sodom in it (for the most part) in the hope that it somehow proves your belief (When it doesn't).

Here are the ones I did not include, that I am fully aware of and know about (Luke 17:29 and around it)

Ask yourself. Why was Sodom destroyed?
Was it because they did not have a belief on God alone as their Savior despite their sin? Or was it because of their excessive sin as to the reason why they were destroyed?

(2 Peter 2:6,

"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;" (2 Peter 2:6).

Sodom was an example to all who shall live ungodly thereafter. Yet, you think David was saved while he was committing his ungodliness. You do not think we can judge sin or evil. Yet, Paul says have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them (Ephesians 5:11).

Jude 1:7,

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7).

The problem with Sodom is that they gave themselves over to fornication (sexual immorality) and to strange flesh whereby they were to suffer the vengeance of eternal fire. So it was their really bad sin that destroyed them in such an extreme way. No other city was destroyed by fire like that.

Luke 13:1-5)...

The point in Luke 13:1-5 is that even those who are not excessively bad sinners will also perish unless they repent. To repent is to seek the Lord's forgiveness over one's sins which is followed by the natural fruits of repentance (i.e. to forsake one's evil ways and obey God).

So I fail to see how these are your "big guns" type verses that refutes what I believe.
 
Last edited:
  • Friendly
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,277
5,237
45
Oregon
✟952,787.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
I was just going over Galatians (again) last night, (then I also decided to go over Ephesians then afterward also) but, it's a good read, (Galatians/Ephesians) (all of Paul's words really) but some of you, like Jason, might think Paul a heretic, like many of the Jews and those of a or any written code or rule of law that is not written on their hearts do...

When Paul was the most enlightened of them all IMO...

I'll give you one line from it...

(Galatians 3:21) "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given (any law) which could have given life, verily righteousness (salvation) should have been (come by or through) the law (but cause it does not) (any written down code of any law, other than that of that which is written upon the heart or conscience).", (the "law" and covenant of faith, of Abraham) (and/cause it does not come by that) (law) (any written down code of law of standard that tries to encompass any and all situations and tries to set one standard across the board for all)... True Justice is not as simple as that, or as simple as any written down rules or codes of law that are like that, but it is very simple to the truly born again mind, heart, and conscience... So, simple children know, but that we lose and forget, till we go back to being a child again...

God Bless!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,210
7,289
Tampa
✟768,102.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
MOD HAT ON

241649_8eca326193ba64ee28247fe1fe32a0e4_thumb.jpg


This thread has had a cleaning of posts that were goading, in response to goads, calling out of individuals, and flaming. Please refrain from goading/flaming one another.

MOD HAT OFF
 
Upvote 0

Blade

Veteran
Supporter
Dec 29, 2002
8,165
3,989
USA
✟629,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Have to look at this from the start.. Adam and Eve sin.. giving what was ours to Satan.. who told Christ this is all mind was handed/given to me so I can give it to who ever I want. Sin has to be judged. Yes Christ came.. yet.. the flesh was not born again. The flesh still sins.. our spirit was made new...it does not sin...yet we still live in this flesh and have to still account for the SIN it does. And when we sin its not just gone because Christ died rose AMEN! For the word makes is clear..if we SIN..thats a believer..we go to Him confess He will forgive cleans us from all unrighteousness.

Now.. if one could live SINLESS ..so what? Still wont get you in to Heaven. Christ said HE alone is the ONLY door in. He is they way the truth and the life. And to then also know that if we live a sinless life our righteousness is rages to Him. Living SINLESS does not make one righteous. NO SIN..or FULL OF SIN.. your RIGHTEOUSNESS that can ONLY come from believing in Christ Jesus.

Do we see? THATS what the Father looks for..not the SIN or NO SIN. He sees you RIGHT NOW..100% pure holy sinless.. He sees you through Christ..that DOOR you went through. Why focus on something He does not. Sin.. did you repent turn way? KEEP your eyes on CHRIST. Not sinning ..again so what? Its what we DO for HIM...living for HIM..did we give our life our mind our soul our heart to Him...let HIM live in us or did we focus on US US US not Him? ...THIS is how I see it
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0