The great divide...

Neogaia777

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@Jason0047, Hey, Jason, let's have a simple short posts conversation, K...? One question or single simple short answer at a time, and let's just simply "talk" OK...? If we can do that, that is, K...?

I'll start, K... "How do you not (ever) sin? and how do you do it, (not sin)...?" "Do you ever sin?" and, "What do you do if and/or when you sin?"

I know that's three questions, but, can you answer them simply and as shortly as possible, and in your own words as much as possible please, maybe, perhaps...?

I'd just like to say or add that, I think people like you could be very useful and beneficial to the rest of us, IF, you'd get on the right side of the fence or embrace the true Gospel that is, first...

God Bless!
 
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@Neogaia777

I am not going to read your posts unless you offer Scripture.
I am sorry to say that you say certain things that are not even related to anything I have said and you ask questions and or make statements that are cryptic or mysterious with no actual context to anything brought up to address the actual topic.

Please stick to Scripture to prove your belief and do not make this about me. The Bible is what will determine the truth here and not what you feel about me personally. So unless you have some Scripture, I am going to ignore what you say.

Peace and blessings to you in the Lord.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.
 
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You added words to one verse and eisegeted one psalm. Hardly compelling.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim, which would be you.

"Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me." (Psalms 41:9).

Judas was once Jesus's familiar friend... IN WHOM HE TRUSTED.

Jesus knew people thoughts. So Judas could not trick Jesus into trusting Him. Jesus would know if Judas was faking it. Jesus knew all about the woman's life at the well (See John 4).

Jesus is GOD.
Jesus does not trust devils!!!!
For Jesus is Holy!
 
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Neogaia777

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@Neogaia777

I am not going to read your posts unless you offer Scripture.
I am sorry to say that you say certain things that are not even related to anything I have said and you ask questions and or make statements that are cryptic or mysterious with no actual context to anything brought up to address the actual topic.

Please stick to Scripture to prove your belief and do not make this about me. The Bible is what will determine the truth here and not what you feel about me personally. So unless you have some Scripture, I am going to ignore what you say.

Peace and blessings to you in the Lord.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.
People are not supposed to "hide" behind scripture Jason...

If you incapable, (which I do not believe), but, if your incapable of simply answering a few short questions in as much as or of your own words as possible (however scripture references that you feel are associated with, or back up, your own word answers are good) then what good are you really...?

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Phil 1:21

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"Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me." (Psalms 41:9).

Judas was once Jesus's familiar friend... IN WHOM HE TRUSTED.

Jesus knew people thoughts. So Judas could not trick Jesus into trusting Him. Jesus would know if Judas was faking it. Jesus knew all about the woman's life at the well (See John 4).

Jesus is GOD.
Jesus does not trust devils!!!!
For Jesus is Holy!
Still doesn't say anything about Judas being saved, now matter how big, bolded, and colorful the font.
 
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People are not supposed to "hide" behind scripture Jason...

If you incapable, (which I do not believe), but, if your incapable of simply answering a few short questions in as much as or of your own words as possible (however scripture references that you feel are associated with your own word answers are good) then what good are you really...?

Anyway,

God Bless!

There is no hiding with God's Word.
For the Word of God is truth.

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." (John 17:17).
Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Again, use God's Word or I will not read your posts. It doesn't matter what you say. I will ignore you unless you post Scripture. It's as simple as that. For God's Word is how I have my faith and we are talking about something that involves the Bible. If you don't want to talk about the Bible using the Bible, then you are contradicting yourself. You cannot destroy the foundation upon that which you stand. If you are not for using the Bible in resolving a Biblical topic, I say that you are not being consistent with what the Bible teaches (See again: 2 Timothy 3:16-17).
 
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Neogaia777

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@Jason0047, right now your twisting scripture to fit and support you own views (but they do not cause your twisting them) and "personal opinions", so your already speaking in your own words, not God's, and trying to claim that your own words are God's and God's word...? When they are not God's word cause you twisting them, only using parts of them, and/or taking them out of their proper context, and all to justify yourself, and support only your own self and what you think, and it is not, IS NOT what God thinks or how God sees it at all...

Jason, what you are doing is one of the worst kind of evils...

How many times in the NT do we see that the Law or any written code is the "wrong way (to go)" or is pointed out to be wrong or fake or false under the NC... That the true Law is not written down, for it is written on and in people who have the right kind hearts God is looking for and approves of...

How do you suppose a heart like that judges or evaluates others, or itself...? Or how does it act and/or behave toward and about itself, God, and others...

Do you have that/the right kind of heart Jason...? If so, how is that shown by what your doing right now, on here...?

Your the one trying to justify sin Jason, your own sin, the worst kind of sin that you are doing right now at that... Or otherwise your trying to flat out deny it, and I don't know which is worse, but perhaps you will tell us since you claim to know...?

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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@Jason0047, I tried to give just some little bit of scripture, and you made a very long post, with a bunch more scripture that did nothing to address the truth but only your own views, personal opinions, and interpretations...

Look, one example, you said when I gave you Acts of the Apostles 15:8-11, that it was only talking about circumcision, when in some of "extra" verses you quoted back to support "your idea" of that, when clearly, it, almost all and each one of them, yours and mine says "the Law" referring to the entire old Law Covenant and not just circumcision... (yours that say that: Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24)

Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

They clearly say or mean, the entire Old Law covenant, but you say they "only say" circumcision only... And the "why" to why your doing that is very wrong and evil... Don't you see how wrong that is and the evil in that, or are you completely blind...?

And the "yoke of slavery" is the OT, Old Law Covenant, something else you tried to say was otherwise, you tried to say the yoke was only circumcision, and that's oh so very wrong, it really means the entire OT, OC, Law Covenant...

And there were many others by you very much like this, and I'm not going to address each one...

Your still clinging onto "our own each individual performance in our own will" and many other things that are supposed to be no more that your trying to hold onto that are a false gospel and that your twisting scripture and deceiving yourself and others when and where possible to try and support only what you think and that's it...

Talking about "initial salvation" and how we must stay on the path of our works and our own will and efforts after that to stay saved and be saved by God...

The False Gospel that you are promoting are the Old ways of the OC, that are changed and completely altered and a nigh done away with under the NC...

God Bless!
 
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Again, use God's Word or I will not read your posts. It doesn't matter what you say. I will ignore you unless you post Scripture. It's as simple as that.

This is another great divide - those whose religion is based upon a book, and those for whom the book is a reference source. Is it possible for those over you over on your side to sit and break bread and share a drink with those of us here on my side? Well, it's possible where I sit, but your mileage may vary.

Obviously I'm not going to agree with you, nor you with me, on this matter of the Bible and its relative importance. The question, then, really, is whether we can talk at all. For my part, I say "sure".
 
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Neogaia777

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@Jason0047

Let's try this again shall we...?

"Do you think one can "earn" to get anything from God...?" Yes or No...?

God Bless!
Ephesians 2:8-9, " for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory.

Do or can we ever earn it, or merit it, anything from God...? No, we cannot, if we get anywhere in the Faith it is all because of, and is totally because of God, and not us...

Works, or working to earn or get something for yourself or from God is "dead"... that is the OT, OC way, and it is dead because it does not work against sin, and actually makes sin worse, or makes sin worse, oftentimes, (no, all the time and every time) into the invisible kind of sin (to most) that most cannot see and God absolutely hates with a passion...

"Willful sins", "initial salvation" and the like, sounds to me like a desperate attempt for one to try paint or pass their own selves off as righteous, when the Bible says none are (Romans 3:10)

And all of Romans 3 is talking about "all of us" Jew/Gentile, all of us, even Paul himself included himself in this, so how are we not the ones being talked about in it...

Some of us "try", some of us do our best, to not be that or that way, but/and especially if we follow the Old way, of written down rules of Law of code, and by our own selves and our will and efforts trying to achieve or attain, that way does not work, is completely dead, and actually makes things (sin) a lot worse... If we do not find, discover, and embrace the New, NC way in Christ, and not the Old way of works and flesh and sin and death, then there is very little to no hope for us both collectively and for an individual "not doing" this...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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I think it's funny that Jason thinks he is going to be greatly rewarded by his works of darkness that are parading itself, and himself, around as light, when it is not, but it is darkness...

Matthew 6:23, But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great that darkness is!

How does one tell the light from the darkness...? The darkness is OC, and the OC way or "your own" works, "your own" self-effort, "your own" will, apart or separate from God, the OC way of establishing "your own righteousness" without and apart from God, instead of God's righteousness apart from your own, or "your own" self-righteousness... Instead of laying yourself down, your own pride and ego, for solidifying and establishing God's true righteousness and not your own, in the minds and hearts of others...

That "Old Way" is all dead, and leads to much evil, and all kinds of evil, and can be the absolute worst kind of evil...

God Bless!
 
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Paul certainly says things like that. And certain types of Christians take these words of Paul as being direct words from God. Others, though, note that Paul is not God, and that the way Paul is interpreted seems to rather directly contradict things that Jesus said, and Jesus is the Son of God, and the one God told those present at the time to listen to, speaking directly from the sky.

So there are a lot of things one must weigh. First, where Paul and Jesus appear to conflict, how does one resolve that? My own answer is to re-read Jesus and consider that to be the rule, and then interpret Paul so that he doesn't appear to override Jesus. Sometimes this requires dismissing Paul's apparent statement as hyperbole.

Second, one can question the reliability of the scripture itself. that it was written down long after the fact by people who themselves had a strong set of religious beliefs, so they recorded what he said from four different perspectives...and even within those accounts there is some tension between what Jesus said or did in one place, and what he said or did in another. Should one really rely on a book which is itself the interpretations of men long ago, presumably acting under the emprise of God's spirit, and not rely primarily on God's spirit in the here and now?

Different Christians (and non-Christians) come to very different answers on these questions. Where I personally come out is not really important for the purposes of this thread, which is to point out that there is a great divide - really great divides - in Christianity, and to decide whether or not they can be bridged.

Certainly the divide between me and others will not be bridged by me abandoning my reasoned and spirit-inspired beliefs to adopt some contrary belief by somebody else. Nor is he going to abandon the fruits of his spirit to adopt the fruits of mine.

For him to claim - as many do - that the fruits of HIS spirit are REAL, and that mine are false and evil - is offensive, obnoxious and proof positive (to me) that his spirit is the evil one. Concretely, that means that no, we will not bridge the divide by one person capitulating to another. Division has occurred since the beginning of the Church, and one of the worst things about our Christian history is the fact that so many frustrated and angry Christians have, historically, taken up weapons and outright murdered those who had different views and would not recant them. The murders of Christian history have more generally damaged the reputation and credibility of Christianity in general in the eyes of all. The same thing occurs very openly and obviously in Islam, with the same effect on the minds of all non-Muslims. We all look at the violence within Islam and see that as evidence that that belief system is either a method of political domination or a mental illness. Many outside of Christianity see the same thing in us because of our bad history. And within Christianity, different denominations hold the grudges of the ages and consider their opposites to be evil, deceived, even agents of the Devil.

So, those are features of the great divide. The only way across it is on the individual level. Each individual has to decide whether he can stand to hear the wild errors of the rest of Christianity and get along with those people anyway.

If he can - like I can - then he realizes that fighting about irreconcilable differences is not the way to achieve peace. To use a secular example, the French did not learn German, and the Germans did not learn French, but they learned to be good neighbors anyway, because the alternative was really, really bad for both, for a really, really long time; because nobody was ever going to win the fight but both sides could make themselves wretched and miserable prolonging it.

If the great divide in Christianity is to be bridged, it will have to be done on the model of France and England or France and Germany getting alone after a thousand years of fighting, or of North and South patching things up, or blacks and whites accepting each other. It's a hard slog.
 
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Phil 1:21

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Paul certainly says things like that. And certain types of Christians take these words of Paul as being direct words from God.
I suppose it all depends on whether or not we consider scripture the inspired word of God.
 
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Neogaia777

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Paul certainly says things like that. And certain types of Christians take these words of Paul as being direct words from God. Others, though, note that Paul is not God, and that the way Paul is interpreted seems to rather directly contradict things that Jesus said, and Jesus is the Son of God, and the one God told those present at the time to listen to, speaking directly from the sky.

So there are a lot of things one must weigh. First, where Paul and Jesus appear to conflict, how does one resolve that? My own answer is to re-read Jesus and consider that to be the rule, and then interpret Paul so that he doesn't appear to override Jesus. Sometimes this requires dismissing Paul's apparent statement as hyperbole.

Second, one can question the reliability of the scripture itself. that it was written down long after the fact by people who themselves had a strong set of religious beliefs, so they recorded what he said from four different perspectives...and even within those accounts there is some tension between what Jesus said or did in one place, and what he said or did in another. Should one really rely on a book which is itself the interpretations of men long ago, presumably acting under the emprise of God's spirit, and not rely primarily on God's spirit in the here and now?

Different Christians (and non-Christians) come to very different answers on these questions. Where I personally come out is not really important for the purposes of this thread, which is to point out that there is a great divide - really great divides - in Christianity, and to decide whether or not they can be bridged.

Certainly the divide between me and others will not be bridged by me abandoning my reasoned and spirit-inspired beliefs to adopt some contrary belief by somebody else. Nor is he going to abandon the fruits of his spirit to adopt the fruits of mine.

For him to claim - as many do - that the fruits of HIS spirit are REAL, and that mine are false and evil - is offensive, obnoxious and proof positive (to me) that his spirit is the evil one. Concretely, that means that no, we will not bridge the divide by one person capitulating to another. Division has occurred since the beginning of the Church, and one of the worst things about our Christian history is the fact that so many frustrated and angry Christians have, historically, taken up weapons and outright murdered those who had different views and would not recant them. The murders of Christian history have more generally damaged the reputation and credibility of Christianity in general in the eyes of all. The same thing occurs very openly and obviously in Islam, with the same effect on the minds of all non-Muslims. We all look at the violence within Islam and see that as evidence that that belief system is either a method of political domination or a mental illness. Many outside of Christianity see the same thing in us because of our bad history. And within Christianity, different denominations hold the grudges of the ages and consider their opposites to be evil, deceived, even agents of the Devil.

So, those are features of the great divide. The only way across it is on the individual level. Each individual has to decide whether he can stand to hear the wild errors of the rest of Christianity and get along with those people anyway.

If he can - like I can - then he realizes that fighting about irreconcilable differences is not the way to achieve peace. To use a secular example, the French did not learn German, and the Germans did not learn French, but they learned to be good neighbors anyway, because the alternative was really, really bad for both, for a really, really long time; because nobody was ever going to win the fight but both sides could make themselves wretched and miserable prolonging it.

If the great divide in Christianity is to be bridged, it will have to be done on the model of France and England or France and Germany getting alone after a thousand years of fighting, or of North and South patching things up, or blacks and whites accepting each other. It's a hard slog.
Jesus was only sent to the house of Israel, to Jews only and first, Paul was sent to the Gentiles, that's why they are different, or seem different...

The question is "why"... Why was or is that, and why are they different or seem different...? Was Jesus speaking only to Jews, trying to, in any way, show how futile everything was if you were trying to do it yourself or on your own in any way...? That good people would be good people only because of God, and that also even bad people would be bad and/or/of or by or because of God also, and no one can really change anything really, at least not apart from God and his presence with us or very near us... That everything anyone does or was doing was all futile and in vain without God, (under the OC, Old way) and that we all needed a way, a new way and better way (the true gospel) (and NC) for God to come to us, or be with us or help us, or be intricately and closely involved with us... Jesus says he is that new way, or is the door, the only door, to that new way...

But, what is the, or that way...? I don't think it would be like the old way and may even be the opposite, or appear to be the opposite of that old way...

God Bless!
 
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I suppose it all depends on whether or not we consider scripture the inspired word of God.

That's one way to put it. But there's more to it than simply that. It depends on whether or not we consider scripture to be the ONLY and FINAL inspired word of God.

Catholics like me think that Scripture was inspired by the same Spirit that continues to dwell within the Church and reveal God's will from age to age since then, such that the formal teachings of the Church - the Catechism and the Divine Constitution, etc., are of the same nature as the old scripture: documents that convey the divine inspiration of their writers, who were then, and are now, guided by God.

Your tradition says that God stopped talking authoritatively and publicly in the First Century, with the writing of the final parts of the New Testament Scriptures, and that that corpus of work, taken as a whole, is THE Inspired Word of God, and that nothing that has come since is.

Obviously these two positions are radically at odds with each other. The question, then, is whether we can bridge the gap without resolving the different beliefs.

I think the answer to that is: only partially. We can come to some of the same final positions using different reasoning. In other places, we don't end up in the same place.

That, then, moves the question to what I took this thread to be about (especially after NeoGaia asked me the question) whether those of us with different beliefs can nevertheless sit down at the table together to break bread and share a drink. I say yes, simply as a matter of goodwill. I have fine family dinners with Muslims in Paris, and have eaten a couple of Passover seders with Jewish friends. We have often eaten family Thanksgiving with our atheist Chinese neighbors, and I've had many a Christmas with Methodist family friends and with Russian Orthodox family friends. So I see no problem with sitting down at meal and drinking with people who disagree with me quite substantially on religious matters. I don't think it necessary to lecture them or hector them - and I will make sport of them if they try to do it to me.

I think it's not a little thing. Christianity as a whole is dwindling in the world. Secularism, Communism and Islam are all rising. I think that it's rather important that Christians get along with each other, it's a question of survival of the fittest, united we stand, divided we fall.

Unity cannot be on the condition of doctrinal unity, because that never has happened all the way back to the Boanerges, and it never will. That level of unity is not to be found among men. To insist on it as the price of comity is to doom the faith to diminution.
 
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