Angry at God

Ing Bee said:

Hi Thess-
great question and comments.

Of course you're correct in the sense that "confidence" is a mental state (not an emotion) that everyone can have. But on the other hand, having "confidence" in someone or something (even yourself) doesn't mean the confidence is well-placed. That's why we have phrases like "over-confident" and "misplaced confidence"–the perception is only as good as the object of your confidence.

With that in mind, the confidence (a synonym for "faith" and "trust") we experience through the gospel rests on the character, purposes, acts, commands, promises, and nature of Yahweh. The more we live our lives trusting in those promises and commands etc., the more we develop our character of being quick to believe (rather than "slow to believe" – which is what Jesus admonished his disciples for). There's a great picture of this in the novel "The Princess and the Goblins" by George MacDonald.

To answer your initial question with some biblical support, my assurance comes from Paul's words in Romans 5:3-5 where he writes:

"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us."​

The word for "suffering" used here is derived from "thlipsis" and is used in the context to focus on persecution or intense distress due to the new life of Christ in believers (as opposed to ill health, economic distress, etc.)

An anology may be helpful in explaining why we rejoice not only in the future glory (v.2) but also in present persecution and why this suffering produces confidence.

Imagine a rushing river. When a cup of water is poured into the torrent, it becomes instantly indistinguishable from the rest of the river. It doesn't feel the pressure of the river because it goes along with the motion and direction of the river. However, when we imagine a large boulder dropped in the river and the story changes; the boulder does not follow the pattern of the river and as a result feels the full pressure of the river resulting in turbulence.
​

We, like the boulder, experience suffering due to our new nature. We have been brought out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of the beloved son. As a result, we don't "fit" anymore. Jesus said that the reason he was persecuted by the religious leaders was because he was from above, he didn't fit their patterns of self-righteous legalism and claimed a direct relationship with the Father. Because we now have that same Father/child connection to God, we too don't fit in. Consequently, the pressures we experience are evidence of this new life. With each experience of suffering (rejection of family/friends, grief over the evil in the world, sadness over unbelief, discomfort with the constant bombardment of sexual distortion, violence, oppression, etc.), we remember that Christ has rescued us to something new and that we now live to show God's character to others (vv.6-10 of Romans 5).

That suffering therefore produces endurance (we keep on living in light of the New Life, we don't despair and give up), endurance produces character (a pattern of life that begins to increasingly look like Jesus who loved his enemies, cared for the sick, loved the stranger and the outcast, etc.) and that Christ-character is the evidence of God's work in our lives, the proof that he is trustworthy and that the "Hope of the Glory of God" is not a fairytale, but a present and future reality!

Notice though, active trust in what God has done and promised is a continual act of the will. Giving up in the middle of persecution does NOT produce confidence because we don't see the results of the Holy Spirit at work transforming us. Here's what James wrote in chapter 1:2-4:

Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
​

There's that "joy" talk again: when our faith is tested (proved) by trials endurance is produced, but we have to "let steadfastness have its full effect" so that we can mature in our Christ-likeness.

Even though James mentions "the testing of your faith", ("In light of this situation at work/school/home/etc. will I continue in trusting obedience to follow Jesus?") whenever we experience ANYTHING that shakes our trust (Does God really love me? Does he really hear me? Is he really trustworthy since I have cancer?) it is an opportunity to return to the litany of benefits we have received in Christ (Ephesians 1:1-14, Romans 5:1-5), the great cost and length the Father has gone to in order to reconcile us to himself through the Son by the Spirit (Romans 5:6-10) and to recognize that our suffering has purpose in the same way that Jesus' suffering had purpose (Philippians 1:12-14, Colossians 1:24-29).

I hope that helps.

Click to expand...

Beautiful! I have been studying confidence for a few years now, and believe me, it's most refreshing to see that someone understands what they're talking about. You're the first.

Ing Bee said:

I hope that helps.

Click to expand...

I should add that I believe most "Christians" have missed the fact that Peter led Barnabas and many others astray, so much so that Paul called them out....to the entire world!! This story alone should really make us question and wonder what our doctrine of "Confidence" is really based upon. For most, their understanding of confidence, of any kind, is deeply misguided, and when it comes to being an EFFECTUAL Christian, without confidence we are useless to God. Utterly useless. In fact, we will cause more harm than good.

Thess said:

Beautiful! I have been studying confidence for a few years now, and believe me, it's most refreshing to see that someone understands what they're talking about. You're the first.

Click to expand...

I think it’s common to conflate certain states of mind, and desires as emotion. For example, “confidence” would probably be described using words of feeling such as “I felt confident going into the interview”. In reality, confidence is a state of mind based on an evaluation of perceptual information.

Here’s a scenario using the “interview” situation described above:


This scene is a setup for the proverb, “don’t count your chickens before they’re hatched”. If Simone doesn’t get the job (for whatever reason), it will become obvious that the object of her confidence was misplaced; rather than being confident in her thorough preparation in the past and present (“I’ve done all I can”), she in effect was “confident” in a future event (“I will get the job”.) By keeping her interview preparation in the realm of the mind without “modeling” the outcome and producing premature emotions, she could be confident in her preparation without feeling that she already possessed the job she desired.

Our Christian confidence is grounded in the past actions of God in history (Romans 5:8), and the present reality of the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:2b); it is not ephemeral but as solid as eternity. In effect Paul says, “if God has gone to this extreme when he didn’t have to (i.e. the Son dying on the Cross for human rebels, you can trust that he will keep his promises for future glory now that you where the righteousness of His Beloved Son. (Romans 5:10). This is how we can rejoice in suffering, because this:

Thess said:

I should add that I believe most "Christians" have missed the fact that Peter led Barnabas and many others astray, so much so that Paul called them out....to the entire world!! This story alone should really make us question and wonder what our doctrine of "Confidence" is really based upon.

Click to expand...

What, in your view or experience, do most Christians base their "confidence" on? What practical results have you observed growing out of this misconception?

Ing Bee said:

I think it’s common to conflate certain states of mind, and desires as emotion. For example, “confidence” would probably be described using words of feeling such as “I felt confident going into the interview”. In reality, confidence is a state of mind based on an evaluation of perceptual information.

Here’s a scenario using the “interview” situation described above:

Simone has seen (mind) an advertisement for a position at AwesomeCo. She really wants (will) that job; she can imagine (mind) how it will be to work there, fulfilling various desires (will) and when she does so she can simulate how she will feel (emotions) to get what she desires (will). She studies up on the company, the position and interviewing techniques (mind). Because she believes (mind) she has done all that can be done and that her resume fits the job description she is confident (mind) that she will get the job she desires (will) and so she pre-emptively feels satisfied (emotions). When people ask her if she thinks (mind) she will get the job, she replies, “I feel confident”, but what she really means is “Based on my knowledge and evaluation of the data concerning the job and my fittedness for it (mind), I imagine (mind) already getting the job I want (will) and as a result I feel an imagined happiness (emotions).​

This scene is a setup for the proverb, “don’t count your chickens before they’re hatched”. If Simone doesn’t get the job (for whatever reason), it will become obvious that the object of her confidence was misplaced; rather than being confident in her thorough preparation in the past and present (“I’ve done all I can”), she in effect was “confident” in a future event (“I will get the job”.) By keeping her interview preparation in the realm of the mind without “modeling” the outcome and producing premature emotions, she could be confident in her preparation without feeling that she already possessed the job she desired.

Our Christian confidence is grounded in the past actions of God in history (Romans 5:8), and the present reality of the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:2b); it is not ephemeral but as solid as eternity. In effect Paul says, “if God has gone to this extreme when he didn’t have to (i.e. the Son dying on the Cross for human rebels, you can trust that he will keep his promises for future glory now that you where the righteousness of His Beloved Son. (Romans 5:10). This is how we can rejoice in suffering, because this:

"light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal. (2 Corinthians 4:17-18)

​

Click to expand...

Beautifully written again. I agree about conflation. Most people conflate confidence "in" the Lord with confidence "comes from" the Lord. Peter could have used a little confidence allocation prior to him falling victim to his fear in Galatians chpt 2, where he leads astray Barnabas and many others. Or, Paul being stressed over Titus not being where is supposed to be, so in a worried state, Paul leaves and heads to Macedonia. Nearly five chapters later, there's Titus....nothing wrong with him; nothing for Paul to have been worried about. And ironically, Paul refers to God as the God of encouragement....which he could have used back in chapter 2 of 1st Corinthians.

I am pushing to help folks understand what it is that Paul is truly asking of us, which is to get ahold of ourselves. To put on new character verses sitting back and waiting for God to deliver some everlasting character trait. I work to defeat the idea that confidence comes from the Lord because of it's ramifications. Many "Christians" run themselves through this process...."If confidence is from the Lord, and if I don't have much confidence, then I guess I am not loved and definitely not saved." This false teaching is very, very dangerous and deeply misguided. I appreciate your engaging in this fascinating discussion.

What is your profession?

step_by_step said:

I'm so angry at God. I know it's probably wrong and I don't want to be but I just feel like he's up there laughing at me. I beg and beg and beg for answers, for relief when I feel pain, for comfort when I'm lonely, for clarity when I'm confused. I beg and he's just silent. I feel like he's just messing with me. Is that true? Most likely no but I'm so angry with him.
What do you do when you're angry at God? He's always just silent with me. I can't get any answers and I feel stuck and hopeless. It feels like he's just a brick wall. I'm sending all my prayers to a wall that doesn't listen.

Click to expand...

How do you think God fells when humans do the same? We are never there unless we need him, most people dont pray unless there is a need. Come to God just with belief and love and praise all the time and God will be there for you all the time.

Also if you belive God will answer then he will, you have to belive in your heart, and then he will come to you and answer you and amazing things will start to happen in your life in due time.

God is not a gene in a bottle like holly wood promotes.

step_by_step said:

I'm so angry at God. I know it's probably wrong and I don't want to be but I just feel like he's up there laughing at me. I beg and beg and beg for answers, for relief when I feel pain, for comfort when I'm lonely, for clarity when I'm confused. I beg and he's just silent. I feel like he's just messing with me. Is that true? Most likely no but I'm so angry with him.
What do you do when you're angry at God? He's always just silent with me. I can't get any answers and I feel stuck and hopeless. It feels like he's just a brick wall. I'm sending all my prayers to a wall that doesn't listen.

Click to expand...

I am never angry with God. I guess he is someone to blame when things don't go our way. You just got to believe that we are human and God is God. Why be angry with Him? Is what is happening in your life His fault? No it isn't. If you have faith then you got to believe that He isn't the reason for your failures. people are the reasons for our failures. God wants whats best for you. He loves you so much. Like a father loves His child. Never be angry with God.

Thess said:

I am pushing to help folks understand what it is that Paul is truly asking of us... To put on new character verses sitting back and waiting for God to deliver some everlasting character trait. I work to defeat the idea that confidence comes from the Lord because of it's ramifications. Many "Christians" run themselves through this process...."If confidence is from the Lord, and if I don't have much confidence, then I guess I am not loved and definitely not saved." This false teaching is very, very dangerous and deeply misguided. I appreciate your engaging in this fascinating discussion.

Click to expand...

In this regard, Ephesians 4:20-24 is great in describing how the process works: 1)First taking off the old life (whenever it creeps back) then 2) continually renewing the mind before 3) putting on the new life (whenever the Spirit draws your attention to the fact that it's slipped off), created in the likeness of God (true righteousness and holiness).

Perhaps one of the deep issues for people is the assumption of a passive role rather than an active one in their Christian experience. Because of the New Birth, we are brought into a new relationship to the tri-une God (participants in the divine nature 2 Peter 1:4) and equipped with everything we need for life and godliness (Ephesians 1:1-14, 1 Peter 1:3, 2 Corinthians 9:8). That's good news! It seems that Christians often adopt a stance that they are waiting for emotions, experiences, etc. to happen to them rather than step out in active participation to expand the Kingdom of Heaven wherever they are and in whatever capacity they want.

I'm reminded that the basis for the Great Commission is that Jesus has conquered and is the king, "All authority in Heaven and on Earth has been given to me, therefore...go!" (Matthew 28:18-20). We march in confidence of what has already taken place and been proclaimed as fact. The early Christians in Rome seem to have gotten the memo:
Their obedience (to live as Jesus taught- pursuing good and not even being acquainted with evil) was known to all. And Paul encourages them with a a not-yet-but-certain fact: the conquest of personal, spiritual opposition is guaranteed. "As you march forth in obedience, Satan will be crushed under your feet."

A large part of the "knowing venture" I have undertaken for these past 3 or so years is developing a way of clearly and concisely defining the interpersonal nature of the gospel centered in the Trinity. The things I have shared in this thread are partially birthed out of this ongoing study. Germane to this particular discussion, is the understanding of what constitutes personality (mind, will and emotions) as it relates to the New Birth. As we've noted, simply placing "confidence/trust/belief" in the realm it belongs (the mind) solves all kinds of issues. Many of the gifts we receive in Christ are based principally on realities not sensations. As you pointed out, flipping those around is very misguided and detrimental to spiritual flourishing (individual) and Kingdom advancement (the Church).

Other examples of this problem:
Doubt. Doubt is an issue of the mind but people perceive it as an emotion. Since an emotional feeling is a sense experience, it seems more real than what God has declared as true in history, especially in the person of the Son (Hebrews 1:1-2). The feelings associated with Doubt are actually feelings of fear due to the unmet desire (will) for security/certainty. As in the case of the author of this thread, first ask "What desire is not being met and thus causing me to feel this way?" Then ask, "What has God actually said, promised, done?" For example if God never promised a pain-free life, the intrusion of pain does not make him untrustworthy.

Love. Agape in the Bible is not primarily a feeling (though it will result in feelings of affection), it is an act of the will. Surprisingly, Shel Silverstein's "The Giving Tree" is an excellent picture of Agape. If you are familiar with the story, the tree loves the boy and gives herself to him. As he grows older, he demands more and more and the tree diminishes herself to give first apples, then branches, then trunk. Each time she gives she is "happy". In the end, the boy, now an old man just needs a stump to sit on, and she is happy. Agape is an active benevolence toward another that does not depend on the objects reciprocation, just as the boy is incredibly callous toward the trees persistent kindness. Yet if you desire and work for someone's good, not for pats on the back or gushing gratitude, the achieving of that desire is happiness: you got want you wanted, the well-being of the person you love.

This is clearly seen in the famous 1 Corinthians 13 passage describing Agape; Paul presents a breath-taking description of agape love, not as feelings but as acts of will (patient, kind, content, humble) for the good of others. It is, in fact, a description of the life of the trinity (1 John 4:8). When you don't "feel loving", as C.S. Lewis says, do the acts of love.

Yes, it is a problem, but I am confident in the promises of the Faithful God who reveals himself to his human image-bearers and leads them into deeper and deeper connection to himself through the Son and by the Spirit's instruction (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). As you share with others in your church community, be joyful (your mind fixed on the kindness of God in Christ's sacrifice and resurrection in you) and be hopeful (your mind fixed on the certain promises of God and our anticipated glory).

My day job? By God's grace I serve my church family in a pastoral capacity, initially to families and children and more recently through overseeing (in conjunction with the elders) the various avenues of discipleship our church community employs. How about you?

Patchygirl1964 said:

I am never angry with God. I guess he is someone to blame when things don't go our way. You just got to believe that we are human and God is God. Why be angry with Him? Is what is happening in your life His fault? No it isn't. If you have faith then you got to believe that He isn't the reason for your failures. people are the reasons for our failures. God wants whats best for you. He loves you so much. Like a father loves His child. Never be angry with God.

Click to expand...

Can you imagine our God laughing at us? Why would He do that? God is a God of love. He loves you. It kind of upsets me that you think he is laughing at you. He would never do that.

Ing Bee said:

What, in your view or experience, do most Christians base their "confidence" on? What practical results have you observed growing out of this misconception?

Click to expand...

Try to view confidence as a way of thinking. In fact, it is systematic thinking that is possible only for the individual (and even in the animal kingdom) that is without fear, or has little fear so as to be called courageous. The less fear one has, the greater their sense of confidence (clear, calm thinkers that are not put off by challenges.) Confidence isn’t a thing; it isn’t something that you can grab hold of, fill up or drain. The deeper into depravity we go, the less our ability to think clearly and calmly, as we’re living in a world of sin. The less sin we have in our lives, the more perfect we become. The more perfect we become, the more confident that we will naturally feel. Elevated confidence is the effect of our positive and healthy work, usually involving the service unto other people.

Unless God chooses to implement a miracle through us, which would require supernatural confidence, this would be a temporary gift that would allow us to experience confidence that is not normally within our own sense of the word. It will be a temporary, supernatural source of confidence. But for every day life on the block, our scale of confidence is a part of who we are just as much as hunger pangs. We don’t have a source for confidence, rather, we have reasons for confidence just as our stomach has a reason for hunger pangs when it becomes empty.

This leads us to the question, “What, then, is confidence?”

Again, confidence isn’t something that you can grab ahold of, drain or fill. It is a way of thought, but not only is it a way of perceiving, but it is a way of perceiving that is associated with a specific type of core, inner feeling or emotion. If our level, or sense of confidence is strong and powerful, we associate this with not only feeling good, but feeling at our very core the impressions of strength, being immovable, steadfast, bold, kind, selfless, whole, secure, attentive, gentle, complete and strong all in the emotional sense. How we achieve this state is not confidence itself, for that would be the work that achieves the result or the lack of work that produces poor results, that determines any sense of confidence. We really don’t have any real control over our confidence, instead, we have control over what we’re afraid of and in by facing our fears, our sense of confidence elevates.

Simple Example: If we obey, we are confident. If we disobey, we are not confident unless we don’t respect the Almighty Power of our God. And this rule applies all throughout life; if we disobey our boss or have no self-control so as to get along with co-workers, we will not feel confident unless we do not respect the power of our bosses or the feelings of others.

John wrote the following, [1Jo 3:19 NLT] 19 ‘Our actions will show that we belong to the truth, so we will be confident when we stand before God.” John is saying exactly what I’m saying, which is that there is a very specific feeling that comes with confidence. So confidence is a way of viewing things, a systematic way, but it is a way that is always associated with a very specific type of inner feeling about who we are as people and our inner feeling about life around us.

For whatever reason, the “Church” doesn’t teach human confidence, which gives full explanation for why we cannot listen, for we do not hear. Everyone around us is weak and insecure, which is why “real Christians” have virtually no presence in the world. If confidence is from the Lord, then why are “Christians” out there pounding the pavement? I’m 51 and I think I’ve had one legitimate Christian actually try to witness to me. That is not a reflection of “Confidence is from the Lord”. If the church would begin to teach everything that Paul teaches, we would become strong, confident people. But what if we were truly strong? What then? What would then happen is we would wake up, and we would begin to recognize that the church has been fake, they haven’t taught us the things that we would need to know so that we would not challenge them. We have been held in a weak state….all of us…..every church. When we are weak, we are pliable, and that usually means $$.

The church’s irresponsible nature for not teaching us how to be whole and complete is a travesty, and if today’s modern day taught us what we needed to know, we wouldn’t be in the position that we’re currently in….hated because of our obvious hypocrisy. I cannot answer for any “Christian” as for the basis of their confidence, for I’ve never met one. Not one, and I’ve been around “Christians” my entire life. I have yet to shake the hand of a person that called themselves a Christian and could actually demonstrate the faith in their life. I’ll go even further, I’ve yet to meet a single human being that possesses true confidence….this is a lost concept. Why? Because if we discuss confidence, then by nature, we’ve got to discuss our weaknesses, and who wants to do that?

In our current state, humans are almost too weak to discuss the true reasons for their lack of confidence. The situation is grim.

Patchygirl1964 said:

Can you imagine our God laughing at us? Why would He do that? God is a God of love. He loves you. It kind of upsets me that you think he is laughing at you. He would never do that.

Click to expand...

I hear ya. My God is incredibly serious. Just thinking about all that is within the universe ought to frighten any normal, rational person. But few are awake, very few understand or respect the Power that God has. It's the same Power that allows Him to know where each of us are at every second of every day, both latitude and longitude, and take our lives right from our hearts and minds whenever He chooses. I'd be awfully careful in how I describe this God of this Universe....oh man.

Good job, Patchy!

JimBeta said:

If you want I will pray for you if you tell me what to pray for

Click to expand...

The good Lord already knows what he needs. Just pray, we don't need to know anyone's circumstances as God knows everything.