Pre tribulation is awful grammar
- Thread starter Billy Evmur
- Start date
- Status
- May 19, 2015
- 125,492
- 28,587
- 73
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Libertarian
"Faith", it has a good ring to it.........
I have a thread on "allusions" in Revelation taken from the OT.
There are so many, it is hard to pick a favorite, but the 7 Messengers with the 7 trumpets in Revelation is rather fascinating and goes back to the famous event of the fall of Jericho by Joshua and the Hebrew Israelites.
Here is my post on that:
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Jericho, Priest and Trumpets
THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION
KJV)
"jericho" occurs 64 times in 59 verses.
It is mentioned in 6 verses in the NT, including 1 time in the Epistles.
Matthew 20:29
And as they departed from Jericho, a great multitude followed him.
Final verse in Hebrews:
Hebrews 11:30
to faith the walls of Jericho did fall,
having been surrounded for seven days;
Joshua 6:
4 and seven Priests do bear seven trumpets/shophars of the jubilees before the Ark, and on the seventh day ye compass the City seven times,
and the Priests blow with the trumpets,
16 And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the Priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, "Shout! for Yahweh hath given you the City.
20 And the people shout, and blow with the trumpets, and it cometh to pass when the people hear the voice of the trumpet, that the people shout — a great shout, and the wall falleth under it, and the people goeth up into the city, each over-against him, and they capture the city;
Now look at Revelation with the 7 Messengers, 7 trumpets and a great City.
Revelation 8:6
And the seven Messengers having the seven trumpets make ready themselves, that they should be trumpeting
Revelation 11:15
And the seventh Messenger trumpets
and became great voices/sounds in the Heaven saying "became the Kingdom of the world of the Lord of us and of the Christ of Him and He shall be reigning into the ages of the Ages.
Revelation 18:
10 Standing afar off for the fear of Her torment, saying, woe! woe! that great City Babylon, that mighty City!
for in one hour is Thy judgment come.
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of Her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great City!
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...z.......0j0i71j35i39j0i67j0i22i30.O9gcctGk9IM
.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- May 15, 2005
- 11,935
- 1,498
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- CA-Conservatives
Maybe you should look up the ancient Greek usage of this word. The ancient Greeks used this word of a group of Ethiopians who moved from their original home to another place, calling them the "apostate" Ethiopians.
Upvote
0
- May 15, 2005
- 11,935
- 1,498
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- CA-Conservatives
I have personally been a member of BOTH of these groups, and their eschatological views are basically identical.
Upvote
0
- May 19, 2015
- 125,492
- 28,587
- 73
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Libertarian
What is the Apostasy in 2 Thess 2?
What is the Apostasy in 2 Thess 2?
G646 (KJV)
646. apostasia ap-os-tas-ee'-ah feminine of the same as 647;
defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):--falling away, forsake.
647. apostasion ap-os-tas'-ee-on neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of 868;
properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce:--(writing of) divorcement.
G646 matches the Greek ἀποστασία (apostasia), which occurs 2 times in 2 verse
Acts 21:21
"They were instructed yet about the apostasy/apo-stasian <646> thou are teaching from Moses,
the according to the nations all Judeans saying 'no to be circumcising them the offsprings, no yet to the customs/eqesin <1485> to be about walking'". [2 Thess 2:3]
2 Thess 2:3
No any ye should be deluding according to no yet one manner/way, that if-ever no may be coming the apostasy/apo-stasia <646> first.
And may be being un-covered the Man of the Sin, the Son of the destruction.
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
Apostasy - Wikipedia
"Apostate" redirects here. For other uses, see Apostate (disambiguation).
For other uses, see Apostasy (disambiguation).
Countries (red) in which, as of 2013, apostasy or blasphemy against the local or state religion was punishable by execution under the law. Currently, this only occurs in some Muslim-majority countries.[1][2][3][4]
Logo of The Campaign for Collective Apostasy in Spain, calling for defection from the Catholic Church
Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία apostasia,
"a defection or revolt") is the formal disaffiliation from, or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. It can also be defined within the broader context of embracing an opinion contrary to one's previous beliefs.[5]
One who undertakes apostasy is known as an apostate. Undertaking apostasy is called apostatizing (or apostasizing – also spelled apostacizing).
The term apostasy is used by sociologists to mean renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, a person's former religion, in a technical sense and without pejorative connotation.
The term is occasionally also used metaphorically to refer to renunciation of a non-religious belief or cause, such as a political party, brain trust, or a sports team.
.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- May 15, 2005
- 11,935
- 1,498
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- CA-Conservatives
Darby Never taught that apostasis meant departure or removal. I spent literally years studying Darby's doctrines, but it was an entirely new idea to me when I first ran across this idea here in Christian forums. But after researching the notion, I concluded that it might be correct, but that was by no means certain.
Upvote
0
keras
Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
- Feb 7, 2013
- 13,666
- 2,491
- 82
- Country
- New Zealand
- Faith
- Pentecostal
- Marital Status
- Married
What you and most Christians have missed from the Prophesies, is how we will migrate and be gathered into all of the holy land soon after the Day of the Lord's wrath has cleared and cleansed that entire area. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10
We do not become citizens of the One World Govt, we establish our own nation, Isaiah 62:1-5, in all of the holy Land; all that area given to Abraham, Genesis 15:18, given to his descendants by faith, Galatians 3:26-29, Romans 9:24-26
This truth is why the leader [the Anti-Christ] of the OWG comes to Beulah and negotiates a 7 year treaty of peace with them. We Christians will not have to take his 'mark' and we will live in peace and prosperity. When Gog and his horde comes down from the North, the Lord will wipe them out for us.
However, the bad news is that after half of the 7 years has passed, the AC will conquer Beulah, Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7 and the people will be divided into 2 groups; one to remain in the holy Land, the other will be taken to a place of safety for the last 42 months before Jesus Returns. Revelation 12:6-17
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- May 15, 2005
- 11,935
- 1,498
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- CA-Conservatives
Anyone who denies the fact of the rapture is denying explicitly stated prophecy. For the Bible very clearly says, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
But the hard fact is that the Bible simply does not state the timing of this event, as compared with the timing of other end time events. ALL theories on the timing of this event are simply based on interpretations of various scriptures that seem to refer to it. Some claim that the Bible explicitly states the timing of this event, but that claim is based on the interpretation that the Lord is only returning a single time, which is something that the Bible simply does not state.
So we can argue till the cows come home about the timing of this event, and it will never be resolved, because no one can PROVE their position.
But when this subject comes up, there is usually someone that makes a claim that this doctrine was originated around 1830 or so, by a man named John Nelson Darby. This claim is also often accompanied by a claim that Darby got the idea from a man named Edward Newton, who in turn got it from extremely compromised sources. At this point, some of the accounts claim it originated in a demonically inspired vision allegedly seen by a young woman named Margaret MacDonald, and other accounts claim it originated in a book written by a Jesuit priest named Manuel Lacunza, who had written under the pseudonym of Juan Josefat Ben-Ezra.
But all of these accounts have been totally disproved. Although these claims are actually about a hundred and fifty years old, they never became widespread until around forty years ago.
After these claims began to be widespread, they came to the attention of two scholars who were experts in two different periods of history. Both of these men immediately recognized these claims as false because they were already familiar with cases of this doctrine having been taught at earlier times. And both of them, working entirely independently, began to specifically research this subject in detail.
The first of these men to publish his work was William C. Watson, a professor of seventeenth and eighteenth century English literature at Colorado Christian college. In 2015 he published a book titled “Dispensationalism before Darby,” published by Lampion Press of Silverton, Oregon, ISBN number 978-1-942614-03-6. In pages135 to 178 of this work, he reviewed many writers from the sixteen hundreds and seventeen hundreds that had taught this doctrine. This was summarized in charts on pages 177 and 178, listing about two dozen writers from this period that had taught this doctrine. That is, this book clearly demonstrated that no less that two dozen writers taught this doctrine during the two centuries before John Nelson Darby was born in 1800.
After he had published this work, he was contacted by James C. Morris, an independent researcher who had been studying ancient literature for well over 40 years. Morris forwarded his notes to Watson, who immediately began to pressure him to draw these many notes together into a book. This was done, and published in 2018 under the title of “Ancient Dispensational Truth,” by James C. Morris, published by Dispensational Publishing House of Taos, New Mexico, ISBN number of 978-1-945774-29-4. Pages 89 to 103 of this work quote a number of truly ancient writers who taught this doctrine. The date of the latest article listed in this work is unknown, but it is known to have been in church libraries before the year 800. That is, a thousand years before John Nelson Darby was born. And the earliest case quoted in this work is believed to have been written between the years 186 and 188, and is the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to the present day. That is, the very oldest surviving Christian comment about the timing of the rapture was that it would before the great tribulation.
Then, in an appendix starting on page 105 of “Ancient Dispensational Truth,” Morris showed the unreasonableness of the claim that Darby got his ideas from Irving, demonstrating that the real source of his ideas, if it was anything other than the scriptures themselves, was either Lewis Way, who had published a fully developed dispensationalism five years before Edward Irving published anything on the subject, or William Lowth, who had published numerous dispensational ideas a hundred years earlier, before Manuel Lacunza was even born.
The nineteenth century claims about the sources of this doctrine may have been based on honest error. But this cannot be said about the more recent claims. In 1975 Dave MacPherson published a highly dishonest book titled “The Incredible Cover-up,” in which he claimed that Darby got the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture from Margaret MacDonald, and covered up the fact that he had visited her church. I call this highly dishonest, because in view of the amount of research MacPherson put into this book, I find it inconceivable that he was unaware that Darby not only did not cover up his visit to her church, but openly published an account of that visit, announcing his conclusion that it was demonic in nature. His article about this can be found in the undated collection titled “The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby” second ed., Vol 6, pp 448-450, William Kelly, ed., London, published by G. Morrish.
Again a regular poster in this forum has been confronted with all the evidence presented here, but he continues to publish his disinformation about this subject, hiding behind the fact that he is not actually stating his information as factual, but only quoting others who have made such claims.
And the OP of this thread is no better. For, after repeatedly stating that Darby dishonestly originated the doctrine, the poster of the OP finally admitted, in post #130 of this very thread, that he knew that the doctrine did not originate with Darby.
Then he went on to pretend that he was well acquainted with the doctrines of John Nelson Darby, claiming that Darby taught ideas that he never taught, and claiming that Darby was trying to establish his hegemony in the field of eschatology and that a sad division called “the Bethesda division” was over eschatology. The truth is that, of the more than fifty volumes of the published works of J. N. Darby, only four are devoted to eschatology. And “the Bethesda division” was about ecclesiology, not eschatology, as was extensively documented in volume 20 of “The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby” second ed., William Kelly, ed., London, published by G. Morrish.
But the hard fact is that the Bible simply does not state the timing of this event, as compared with the timing of other end time events. ALL theories on the timing of this event are simply based on interpretations of various scriptures that seem to refer to it. Some claim that the Bible explicitly states the timing of this event, but that claim is based on the interpretation that the Lord is only returning a single time, which is something that the Bible simply does not state.
So we can argue till the cows come home about the timing of this event, and it will never be resolved, because no one can PROVE their position.
But when this subject comes up, there is usually someone that makes a claim that this doctrine was originated around 1830 or so, by a man named John Nelson Darby. This claim is also often accompanied by a claim that Darby got the idea from a man named Edward Newton, who in turn got it from extremely compromised sources. At this point, some of the accounts claim it originated in a demonically inspired vision allegedly seen by a young woman named Margaret MacDonald, and other accounts claim it originated in a book written by a Jesuit priest named Manuel Lacunza, who had written under the pseudonym of Juan Josefat Ben-Ezra.
But all of these accounts have been totally disproved. Although these claims are actually about a hundred and fifty years old, they never became widespread until around forty years ago.
After these claims began to be widespread, they came to the attention of two scholars who were experts in two different periods of history. Both of these men immediately recognized these claims as false because they were already familiar with cases of this doctrine having been taught at earlier times. And both of them, working entirely independently, began to specifically research this subject in detail.
The first of these men to publish his work was William C. Watson, a professor of seventeenth and eighteenth century English literature at Colorado Christian college. In 2015 he published a book titled “Dispensationalism before Darby,” published by Lampion Press of Silverton, Oregon, ISBN number 978-1-942614-03-6. In pages135 to 178 of this work, he reviewed many writers from the sixteen hundreds and seventeen hundreds that had taught this doctrine. This was summarized in charts on pages 177 and 178, listing about two dozen writers from this period that had taught this doctrine. That is, this book clearly demonstrated that no less that two dozen writers taught this doctrine during the two centuries before John Nelson Darby was born in 1800.
After he had published this work, he was contacted by James C. Morris, an independent researcher who had been studying ancient literature for well over 40 years. Morris forwarded his notes to Watson, who immediately began to pressure him to draw these many notes together into a book. This was done, and published in 2018 under the title of “Ancient Dispensational Truth,” by James C. Morris, published by Dispensational Publishing House of Taos, New Mexico, ISBN number of 978-1-945774-29-4. Pages 89 to 103 of this work quote a number of truly ancient writers who taught this doctrine. The date of the latest article listed in this work is unknown, but it is known to have been in church libraries before the year 800. That is, a thousand years before John Nelson Darby was born. And the earliest case quoted in this work is believed to have been written between the years 186 and 188, and is the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to the present day. That is, the very oldest surviving Christian comment about the timing of the rapture was that it would before the great tribulation.
Then, in an appendix starting on page 105 of “Ancient Dispensational Truth,” Morris showed the unreasonableness of the claim that Darby got his ideas from Irving, demonstrating that the real source of his ideas, if it was anything other than the scriptures themselves, was either Lewis Way, who had published a fully developed dispensationalism five years before Edward Irving published anything on the subject, or William Lowth, who had published numerous dispensational ideas a hundred years earlier, before Manuel Lacunza was even born.
The nineteenth century claims about the sources of this doctrine may have been based on honest error. But this cannot be said about the more recent claims. In 1975 Dave MacPherson published a highly dishonest book titled “The Incredible Cover-up,” in which he claimed that Darby got the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture from Margaret MacDonald, and covered up the fact that he had visited her church. I call this highly dishonest, because in view of the amount of research MacPherson put into this book, I find it inconceivable that he was unaware that Darby not only did not cover up his visit to her church, but openly published an account of that visit, announcing his conclusion that it was demonic in nature. His article about this can be found in the undated collection titled “The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby” second ed., Vol 6, pp 448-450, William Kelly, ed., London, published by G. Morrish.
Again a regular poster in this forum has been confronted with all the evidence presented here, but he continues to publish his disinformation about this subject, hiding behind the fact that he is not actually stating his information as factual, but only quoting others who have made such claims.
And the OP of this thread is no better. For, after repeatedly stating that Darby dishonestly originated the doctrine, the poster of the OP finally admitted, in post #130 of this very thread, that he knew that the doctrine did not originate with Darby.
Then he went on to pretend that he was well acquainted with the doctrines of John Nelson Darby, claiming that Darby taught ideas that he never taught, and claiming that Darby was trying to establish his hegemony in the field of eschatology and that a sad division called “the Bethesda division” was over eschatology. The truth is that, of the more than fifty volumes of the published works of J. N. Darby, only four are devoted to eschatology. And “the Bethesda division” was about ecclesiology, not eschatology, as was extensively documented in volume 20 of “The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby” second ed., William Kelly, ed., London, published by G. Morrish.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- May 19, 2015
- 125,492
- 28,587
- 73
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Libertarian
Yeah, I notice that sometimes to...best to just let leave the Law to to the Jews.......
Mark 12
32 And the scribe said to him, ‘Well, Teacher, in truth Thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He;
33 and to love Him out of all the heart, and out of all the understanding, and out of all the soul, and out of all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as one’s self, is more than all the whole burnt-offerings and the sacrifices.’
34 And Jesus, having seen him that he answered with understanding, said to him, ‘Thou art not far from the Kingdom of God;’ and no one any more durst question him.
Hebrews 10:1
For the Law having a shadow of the coming good things -- not the very image of the matters, every year, by the same sacrifices that they offer continually, is never able to make perfect those coming near,
.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
The understanding I have about all this from the passages and where I approach Bible study of one subject or another from, is that The Rapture is in 2 Thess. 2:1's asserted certainty - "the coming of the Lord, and our gathering unto him" (see also, verse 13) that Paul then proceeds to contrast with verse 2's "day of Christ" in His Wrath, verse 8, said day of His Wrath which the Thessalonians had ended up believing they were then living in, verse 2.
The order of these things being the following (though based on far much more in Scripture than merely 2 Thessalonians 2, alone)...
(1) Coming of the Lord, and our gathering unto Him, this is the Harpazo action, which is then followed at some point after it by the (2) rise of Anti-Christ, (3) followed by a complete departure by many Jews/Israelites for AntiChrist from what little of their Law Covenant many of them even hold to anymore (in other words, Israel reaches a FILLING UP of their sin AS A NATION against Moses - again, this is easily possible given the countless Jews today who merely profess believing in "God," but not in Moses (their Law Covenant), which culminates in (3) the Day of the Lord in His Wrath.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And agreed, it does not appear that Darby had held that 2 These. 2:3 had referred to the Rapture.
If I'm not mistaken, his views had been closer to Acts 2 Dispensationalism, than to the Acts 9 Dispensationalism, say, that I hold to.
Meaning, that he would have viewed and thus, have relied on, various passages in the gospels as asserting The Body's Pre-Trib Rapture.
Whereas we assert that that is all Israel, Matt. 8:1-4; Matt. 23:1-3, etc., and that only the Apostle Paul teaches, asserts a Pre-Trib Rapture - which is particular to this Mystery Age that he alone had preached, taught, and labored under, Rom. 11:13; Rom. 11:25, etc.
By the way, I know you have had major health issues - its really great to see you still around on these boards.
Yours in Rom. 5:6-8.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Since the pretrib doctrine is built upon the idea that there are Two Peoples of God, it is really not that difficult.
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and therefore the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
The New Covenant: Bob George
.
Upvote
0
One way of doing a word study is to compare how an English word is used in different places, but in light of each place's use, theme, subject matter, and so on.
Because an English word may not be the same, say, in the Greek.
Also, what is meant by a word is very often given by using a different word or phrase, in the same passage where the word in question has also been used.
As in 2 Tim. 2:14s' "hath FORSAKEN me...is DEPARTED."
Or in 2 Peter 2:15's "have FORSAKEN the right way, and are GONE ASTRAY,"
Or in Hebrews 13:5's "I will never LEAVE thee, nor FORSAKE thee."
In each example, what is meant is brought out by the use of a different word or phrase, in the very same passage.
No surprise Scripture practically ends its narrative with an example of that use...
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
In the above passage, four words are used to help exegete, to bring out, the intended sense of each of those four words, through the use of the other three.
SCRIPTURE is Its' Own Best Dictionary.
Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.
8:12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.
Rom. 5:6-8.
Because an English word may not be the same, say, in the Greek.
Also, what is meant by a word is very often given by using a different word or phrase, in the same passage where the word in question has also been used.
As in 2 Tim. 2:14s' "hath FORSAKEN me...is DEPARTED."
Or in 2 Peter 2:15's "have FORSAKEN the right way, and are GONE ASTRAY,"
Or in Hebrews 13:5's "I will never LEAVE thee, nor FORSAKE thee."
In each example, what is meant is brought out by the use of a different word or phrase, in the very same passage.
No surprise Scripture practically ends its narrative with an example of that use...
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
In the above passage, four words are used to help exegete, to bring out, the intended sense of each of those four words, through the use of the other three.
SCRIPTURE is Its' Own Best Dictionary.
Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.
8:12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.
Rom. 5:6-8.
Upvote
0
keras
Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
- Feb 7, 2013
- 13,666
- 2,491
- 82
- Country
- New Zealand
- Faith
- Pentecostal
- Marital Status
- Married
The timing of this prophecy is clearly stated: it is when the Lord Himself descends from heaven.... His Return, as per Acts 1:11, for His Millennium reign.
He then sends out His angels to gather His own people, as Matthew 24:31 says, to where He is, initially in the clouds, then on earth, where all those tested and tried faithful people will be His Priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:9-10
A rapture to heaven' is never stated to happen, in fact Jesus says such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, +
As for who originated the 'rapture to heaven of the Church' doctrine, who else but the father of lies, Satan and his cleverness in promoting it is very apparent, right from the ECF's until today, with millions sucked in by it.
People may say; Why has God allowed this? Because when the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath strikes the earth, those who believed they would be taken away before that Day, will not have enough strength of faith to stand firm, trusting God for their protection and will renounce God.
It will be the 'winnowing' process that John prophesied in Matthew 3:12
Upvote
0
A gaping hole in your supposedly sound mind reading of why people hold to a Pre-Trib Rapture is often depicted in Scripture itself.
In those various accounts wherein, where it looked like a Faithful Bible Believer expecting a delivery of some sort did not find one, he or she merely adjusted his or her expectation.
As King David did, when God did not spare him from losing his son. David merely adjusted to his loss.
But as usual, your kind often prove yourselves so given over to YOUR supposed mind reading of why someone holds a view you do not, that you end up blind to possible counter-examples to your conclusions.
Counter-examples to possible holes in your supposed mind reading of others, which, had you paused to consider them, might have allowed you to see an obvious hole in your supposed mind reading.
I find your practice amusing.
Because Rom. 5:6-8.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
What criteria other than faith and obedience would God use to select the 144,000?
The Church and the 144,000
Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
- Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
- Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
- Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
- Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
- Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
- Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
- Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
- Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
- Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
- Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
- Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
- Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)
While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.
Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.
The NT Church's inclusivity and oneness are declared in the following:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…
The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)
No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000
Upvote
0
ItIsFinished!
Jesus Christ is our only hope.
- Sep 1, 2018
- 1,678
- 1,134
- 51
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
The 144,000 are 12,000 of the sons of Israel from each 12 tribes that will be sealed by God (divinely protected ) during the tribulation to evangelize the world during that time.
They will proclaim the gospel in a powerful way and be divinely protected by God .
They are not the Church.
The Church age will have ended at the rapture.
This will be after the removal of the Church.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Status
Similar threads
