Is assurance of salvation possible?

Dorothy Mae said:

He realized that the doctrine about the loss of salvation is real and OSAS is a lie. He knows he has lost his relationship with the Lord that he once enjoyed. He has said so over and over again. He did not say he lost some theology. He lost his relationship with God. He believed OSAS and found out it is not true. God does not believe in OSAS and separated Himself from the man because of his sinful lifestyle that OSAS promised would not matter. It matters.

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Last comment here: it's more than losing a relationship. It's called spiritual death and it definitely happens in this life. Imagine being unable to distinguish what is a sin and what isn't and purely only knowing because of the bible. Imagine being able to commit any sin and not feeling bad after but intellectually wanting to. Imagine all of your joy and happiness vanishing and only emptiness remains. Imagine everything that made you who you are has vanished and the only thing that remains is sin and it's the only thing that brings you pleasure. You no longer enjoy anything and everything loses flavor. Your mind is darkened and the only thing you desire is to satisfy the flesh.

Dorothy Mae said:

OSAS means one does not have to have any fear at all and that is what I see in the posts of those who hold this teaching. No fear of GOd or fear of anything as the theology assure them fear is not necessary. They are in like flint.

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My perspective is that holding an Arminianist viewpoint translates into eternal security.

Dorothy Mae said:

This is how you negate the clear words of Jesus to count the cost even with examples. NOne of the example show people relying on themselves as something bad. It is actually the opposite. No where in any of the example of what he meant did he say the person counting the cost should rely on someone else. Your theology causes you to ignore the words and teaching of Jesus Himself. This is dangerous.

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I don't think that you have thought on these verses long enough. Remember Psalms chapter 1.

If you think you have enough resources in and of yourself to be able to build your building, then go with that. I say to you, good luck.

Dorothy Mae said:

Nah, it is the truth as recorded in the BIble. I say again, assurance of salvation becuase of some act in the past is not there and no one preached assurance of salvation. That is a big lie of the Devil that has caused some believers to end up in hell. They were told they did not need to take care and did not.

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I don't think you realize what I was responding to. You are actually contending for the man's condemnation by calling it the truth that he can't ever return to God. You don't know that; only God does: and as long as he is alive there is hope for him to be restored, if you would look at the verses that I have referenced in previous posts in this thread. But if you don't want to, then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If he can fall away in such a way that he can never return, then that can happen to you too. And what makes you think you will be immune to such a thing? Do you expect that in judging this man to be incapable of repenting, that if you fall or backslide you will be able to repent? I could almost desire that you will fall away and never be able to return because you have made this judgment. But I don't wish hell on my worst enemy; and I also believe that God is a God of restoration (Psalms 23:3).

Dorothy Mae said:

He realized that the doctrine about the loss of salvation is real and OSAS is a lie. He knows he has lost his relationship with the Lord that he once enjoyed. He has said so over and over again. He did not say he lost some theology. He lost his relationship with God. He believed OSAS and found out it is not true. God does not believe in OSAS and separated Himself from the man because of his sinful lifestyle that OSAS promised would not matter. It matters.

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Please look up Luke 6:37.

The only instance in which we are allowed to condemn other people as Christians is when their tongue rises up against us in judgment, Isaiah 54:17. You have unjustly condemned this person, and I would repent if I were you; because you seem to want for him to never return to God; and this appears to me to be a thing of malice.

@Invalidusername, please do not leave this thread. There is hope for you if you want to have hope.

Even if you think you don't have any more faith, if you have even one iota of hope it can save you and bring your faith into a place of restoration, Romans 8:24 (see also Psalms 23:3).

HatGuy said:

A. A person who has truly fallen away would have no concept whatsoever of 'sin'. Sin is something the Holy Spirit tells us about. You wouldn't think of your 'sin' as 'sin'. Sin is not on the radar of someone who has fallen away.

B. You're expecting remorse to be a feeling. Why? You talk about being cold as as stone. Why? What have your emotions got to do with this?

Falling away is harder than you think. There are atheists who were once a Christian and they have dedicated their lives to destroying the faith. That's falling away. That's not you. The pharisees sinned against the Holy Spirit because they knew the truth and fought against it. You're not fighting against it, are you? If so, where? Not around here.

Ever wondered if God can remove your sin? You're so worried about how you're performing that you've lost sight of the fact that God is able to remove sin, not because you deserve it, but because he is full of grace.

Do you know what 'apostasy' means in Hebrews 6:6? It doesn't mean that sin has taken over. It means you actively renounce the faith and choose to have nothing to do with it.

Once again, I contend that you are not apostate. You are just depressed. You have just given up... but you haven't renounced the faith or gone to war against it. Depression sucks, but depression is not always emotional... it's often a state of numbness; a state of just letting your body rule over you because what's the use? It, and the devil, has won so many times, you might as well let it have free reign.

But that's not apostasy. That's depression. And God will never break a bruised reed. Neither life nor death, neither angels or demons, principalities nor powers, can separate you from God. Do you think sin can? Why is sin so powerful that God cannot break through it? Is sin some sort of kryptonite for God? Is he powerless against it? Is he unable to approach a human being with it and do something about it? Can the saviour who defeated death somehow not have the power to deal with sin, and to be with a person who is suffering under its powerful enslaving effects?

Jesus Christ is not so weak! What is sin to him? He pronounces forgiveness and pours out power just by the mere breath of his words. Why would he not reach in and destroy it? He can and he will. Just believe, and persist in believing, and see how even sin; how even cold hearts; how even ambivalence towards sin; how even depression and giving up; is no match for the One who has all authority in heaven and earth.

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Amen.
This will preach brother.

Demas was restored.

There are those who, in opposition to the doctrine of POTS, otherwise known as OSAS, argue that Demas was an example of someone who fell away and never came back to God (2 Timothy 4:10 is the scripture that they reference).

I beg to differ.

In Philemon 1:9, it is clear that it it is at the end of Paul's life (he was considered to be Paul the aged) that he wrote the book of Philemon. Therefore we should consider Philemon 1:23-24 in this subject matter.

I tend to believe also that the Bible is organized in consecutive order both theologically and chronologically. But even if it isn't, that would open up the possibility that Colossians was written after 2 Timothy. And Demas is mentioned there also as being in right standing with God (Colossians 4:14).

Therefore I contend for the possibility that Demas was a prodigal.

When looking at Hebrews 6:1-8, it becomes clear that if someone is not a prodigal when they fall away, they cannot ever come back to salvation. But if they have merely backslidden heavily but do not turn away completely, I believe that they are prodigals and can indeed return to the experience of salvation (becoming Romans 8 Christians once again from the Romans 7 experience).

If someone is backslidden, they need to consider that according to the parable they are dead and lost. However if they despise the pigpen, it is evidence that they are still sons.

A dog that returns to its vomit is not a sheep (although in the interpretation aspect of the analogy, a sheep could in fact be tricked into eating its own vomit through the deception of the enemy). A sow that is cleaned up and put in the palace will return to the mud as soon as it gets the opportunity. But if you put a sheep in the mud or try to force or train it to eat its own vomit, it will recoil at the prospect and will run for the opportunity to be made clean again.

If you are a sheep and not a dog or a pig, then you aren't happy in the world.

Come back to Jesus! Put your trust in Him. He is the only way to the Father (John 14:6).

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justbyfaith said:

My perspective is that holding an Arminianist viewpoint translates into eternal security.



I don't think that you have thought on these verses long enough. Remember Psalms chapter 1.

If you think you have enough resources in and of yourself to be able to build your building, then go with that. I say to you, good luck.



I don't think you realize what I was responding to. You are actually contending for the man's condemnation by calling it the truth that he can't ever return to God. You don't know that; only God does: and as long as he is alive there is hope for him to be restored, if you would look at the verses that I have referenced in previous posts in this thread. But if you don't want to, then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If he can fall away in such a way that he can never return, then that can happen to you too. And what makes you think you will be immune to such a thing? Do you expect that in judging this man to be incapable of repenting, that if you fall or backslide you will be able to repent? I could almost desire that you will fall away and never be able to return because you have made this judgment. But I don't wish hell on my worst enemy; and I also believe that God is a God of restoration (Psalms 23:3).



Please look up Luke 6:37.

The only instance in which we are allowed to condemn other people as Christians is when their tongue rises up against us in judgment, Isaiah 54:17. You have unjustly condemned this person, and I would repent if I were you; because you seem to want for him to never return to God; and this appears to me to be a thing of malice.

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Her sin is pride. She seems to have an inflated sense of ego about her own goodness and self-righteousness and perhaps she has already fallen away and is not aware of it. I know I was not aware of it when I backslid.

Other than that don't worry about it. She is blinded either by her own pride or God has given her over to it.

justbyfaith said:

@Invalidusername, please do not leave this thread. There is hope for you if you want to have hope.

Even if you think you don't have any more faith, if you have even one iota of hope it can save you and bring your faith into a place of restoration, Romans 8:24 (see also Psalms 23:3).

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I'm leaving this thread since I don't want to disrupt but we can pm if you want.

Invalidusername said:

Last comment here: it's more than losing a relationship. It's called spiritual death and it definitely happens in this life. Imagine being unable to distinguish what is a sin and what isn't and purely only knowing because of the bible. Imagine being able to commit any sin and not feeling bad after but intellectually wanting to. Imagine all of your joy and happiness vanishing and only emptiness remains. Imagine everything that made you who you are has vanished and the only thing that remains is sin and it's the only thing that brings you pleasure. You no longer enjoy anything and everything loses flavor. Your mind is darkened and the only thing you desire is to satisfy the flesh.

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Yes, this comes from losing the relationship. You need to say this over and over again to those who believe it cannot happen to them, ever. They are dancing on the edge of a cliff thinking they can never fall. Your testimony is important.

justbyfaith said:

My perspective is that holding an Arminianist viewpoint translates into eternal security.

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Then you need to study the view better. It does not.

I don't think that you have thought on these verses long enough. Remember Psalms chapter 1.

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I’m convinced I’ve studied and thought about this longer than most because there are no questions I won’t answer on the matter. But what do you think is missing?

If you think you have enough resources in and of yourself to be able to build your building, then go with that. I say to you, good luck.

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You don’t believe the words of Jesus? He said that, not me. But I think you haven’t studied what “work out your own salvation” and the following bit means. Do you think God is working out your salvation for you?

I don't think you realize what I was responding to. You are actually contending for the man's condemnation by calling it the truth that he can't ever return to God.

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I have no authority whatsoever to condemn or commend a man in Gods judgement. I think you think you’re theology is something God has to abide by instead of you abiding by His.

You don't know that; only God does: and as long as he is alive there is hope for him to be restored, if you would look at the verses that I have referenced in previous posts in this thread.

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Actually I don’t know if all is lost but I will not words of false comfort.

But if you don't want to, then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If he can fall away in such a way that he can never return, then that can happen to you too.

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I know and have always known this so I take care it doesn’t happen and do not assume He is keeping me. Works best since it is the truth.

I find the way of the Lord to be delightful after 40 years and cannot see how I would throw it all away for some pleasure that doesn’t compare.

And what makes you think you will be immune to such a thing?

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Same as I know I won’t commit murder or adultery.

Do you expect that in judging this man to be incapable of repenting, that if you fall or backslide you will be able to repent?

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When did I say that?

I could almost desire that you will fall away and never be able to return because you have made this judgment. But I don't wish hell on my worst enemy; and I also believe that God is a God of restoration (Psalms 23:3).

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This reveals the problem. You really do think that whatever a theology one decides to believe, God is bound to it. And i don’t judge the guy. I do him the courtesy of believing him. You think he’s deceived or lying. Which is being more courteous to him?

Please look up Luke 6:37.

The only instance in which we are allowed to condemn other people as Christians is when their tongue rises up against us in judgment, Isaiah 54:17. You have unjustly condemned this person, and I would repent if I were you; because you seem to want for him to never return to God; and this appears to me to be a thing of malice.

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Again, I didn’t condemn him. You think he’s lying so maybe you ought to repent and believe him. He knows the state of his heart, not you.

By the way, was Peter judging/condemning Annanias? Was Paul condemning/judging Simon? WhT do you think?

Dorothy Mae said:

Yes, this comes from losing the relationship. You need to say this over and over again to those who believe it cannot happen to them, ever. They are dancing on the edge of a cliff thinking they can never fall. Your testimony is important.

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Nobody warned me so I don't feel compelled to warn anyone else.

Dorothy Mae said:

He realized that the doctrine about the loss of salvation is real and OSAS is a lie. He knows he has lost his relationship with the Lord that he once enjoyed. He has said so over and over again. He did not say he lost some theology. He lost his relationship with God. He believed OSAS and found out it is not true. God does not believe in OSAS and separated Himself from the man because of his sinful lifestyle that OSAS promised would not matter. It matters.

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I believe you can lose your salvation, but it's is incredibly difficult to do so, and salvation is only lost due to apostasy, not due to sin.

Apostasy is not easy to do. Invalidusername is not showing signs of apostasy. Apostasy takes the form of violent behaviour against the faith, or a complete and deliberate, conscious and clear decision to write-off of faith altogether. It is a clear decision to disbelieve in Jesus, even when you know who He is and that His gospel is true.

So I'm not OSAS, but neither do I buy this idea that God runs away from sin and cannot handle it. God's holiness is so good and so holy that it does not have to hide away from sin, but is able to pierce right through it. This idea that God hides his face from us when we sin is anti-gospel. The gospel preaches that he actually became sin for us on the cross in order to deal with it. He does not hide his face, rather he reveals it so that we would run to Him. At that point it's a matter of faith or not, and so faith is what salvation depends upon - continously.

Dorothy Mae said:

Then you need to study the view better.

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I've studied it thoroughly; and I have also won the debate (with the help of a few others) by bringing it into the middle in threads over 100 pages long.

Dorothy Mae said:

But I think you haven’t studied what “work out your own salvation” and the following bit means. Do you think God is working out your salvation for you?

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Read the next verse. Also, we are to work out our salvation; not for it.

Dorothy Mae said:

You think he’s deceived or lying. Which is being more courteous to him?

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Which is more important: being courteous or loving? my statements to him offer hope; while yours would seek to dash any hope he might have to pieces; or to keep it from ever developing. Hope even without faith has the power to save (Romans 8:24 (kjv)).

Dorothy Mae said:

By the way, was Peter judging/condemning Annanias?

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The Holy Spirit judged/condemned Ananias through Peter. And what happened? he died. Just goes to show that when someone truly crosses the line, they don't need to take another breath and probably won't (Genesis 6:3).

Dorothy Mae said:

He knows the state of his heart, not you.

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God knows the state of his heart better than any one of us. Shouldn't we give him the benefit of the doubt; and also encourage him to return to the Lord?

What if your statements discourage him from even seeking; and if he had only sought the Lord, it would have been possible to return? His blood will be on your head if that discouragement is never overcome.

edited #272 (got it reversed at first).

David Cabrera said:

Is there something in the Bible about assurance of final salvation?

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Hi There-

I'm happy to say, assurance abounds in scripture!

Here's one example:
Ephesians 1:1-14. Specifically, vv.13-14 explain that one of the "spiritual blessings" we have been given through Christ is the "seal" of the Holy Spirit, a "deposit guaranteeing our inheritance". God's guarantee is good enough for me.

Here's another one:
Hebrews 8:8-13 quotes from Jeremiah 31:31-34 in which God lays out the terms of the New Covenant (the one that Jesus's blood inaugurates (Luke 22:20). The Old Covenant failed (intentionally) because humans (Israelites) can't keep it. Therefore in the New Covenant, God Himself will internalize the law on the hearts of his people and everyone will know him and he will forgive them and remember their sins no more. No sins, no condemnation, which is why Paul writes in Romans 8:1: "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus".

One more:
Titus 3:3-7. Notice 1) how we once were, 2) what the Father has done, through the Son, by the Spirit
3) whose righteousness is in view and 4) what the point of having our sins justified is

Part of what trips people up on this issue and the faith/works issue is a misunderstanding of what salvation and eternal life are. Salvation is not a thing you get, it is the interpersonal relationship we have been brought into through Jesus. We are now partakers of the divine community (Father, Son , Spirit) as Peter writes in 2 Peter 1:1-4. The "divine nature" is eternal life which Peter contrast with "corruption" decay and rot. This concept is clearly articulated in 1 John 5:11 "He who has the Son has life". Jesus himself said "I am the way, the truth and the life." Connection to Christ is life. As Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." Look at all those beautiful past tense verbs: the old HAS passed away, the new HAS come."

Paul emphasizes this in Romans 6:6-11 - we have been immersed (baptizo) into Christ's death so we share in his new resurrected life. In fact there is not a single command in that chapter until vv.11-13, just statements of fact (similar to Ephesians 1:1-14). Then again in 6:14 Paul says that because of Jesus: "sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace."

For some Old Testament confirmation try this exercise:

Read all of Hebrews 11 and note that "faith" is active trust in the person, character, and promises of Yahweh. The evidence of Abraham's trust in God was that he obeyed. The trust came first and since it was real trust (faith) the actions followed. Note however, that Abraham and every other person in the Bible who showed faith (and are included in Hebrews 11) were miserable at whole-heartedly following God. As one bible scholar has pointed out, the people in the Bible are mirrors, not models. The only thing they are commended for is their persistent trust (faith) in Yahweh.

By the way, that list includes non-Jews like Rahab the Canaanite Prostitute who was saved because of her trust in who Yahweh was. She acted to save the Hebrew spies because she really believed Yahweh was who he claimed and was going to give the land to his people. Incidentally, she is included in Jesus' genealogy in Matthew 1.

Additionally, Jesus commends two non-jews in the old testament who believed Yahweh and received benefits because of their active trust in Yahweh. The really believed him so they acted upon what he said, as opposed to the Jews who didn't receive healing who gave lip service to Yahweh but didn't really trust him enough to respond. (Luke 4:24-27)

This "active trust" stuff is how all interpersonal relationships work. If you are waiting for your coffee at YourFavoriteCoffeeShop Co., and you hear your name and drink called out, you 1) hear 2) trust 3) act to get the coffee. Your actions just prove that you really believed what the barista said. It's the "evidence of things unseen". The entire point of the Bible is an invitation to interpersonal relationship with God (and by extension his human image-bearers - Deuteronomy 6:5, Matthew 22:37, Micah 6:8). God wants to have an interpersonal connection with everyone who want to engage with him and he has made a way for that to happen in the most amazing and jaw-dropping way: adoption into the family of God as co-inheritors with Christ! (Ephesians 1:1-14). In fact, faith/trust/interpersonal confidence is absolutely necessary because 1) you have to believe that God is there to know and 2) he will reward those who seek him with relationship (Hebrews 11:6).

To sum up:

1. Our assurance is based on what the Father has done through the Son to rescue us (John 3:16-17, Romans 5:6-11)
2. We now have the perfect righteousness of Jesus, the perfect righteousness of God that comes by trusting the Jesus is who he says he is and has done what he said he did (Romans 3:21-26)
3. The new life we have is God's own quality of life (Galatians 5:18-24, 1 John 2:15-17) which is why the Spiritual fruit is the same attitudes God exhibits now bloom in our lives. The nature of the fruit (spiritual/eternal) shows the nature of the seed that was planted in the New Birth (John 3).
4. Christians enter into a process of being transformed into the likeness of the Son (word, attitude, and action) even while already having the 100% guarantee of adoption into God's family (Ephesians 1:11, Ephesians 2:4-6)
5. This is all for the Glory of God so that His perfect, love, mercy, and justice can be displayed throughout eternity (Ephesians 2:7). That's why it is not based on our works, becuase only God get's to boast, only God get's all glory!
6. This is why it is called "Good News"! There is nothing like this in all of history.

I hope that is encouraging and helpful.

justbyfaith said:

God knows the state of his heart better than any one of us. Shouldn't we give him the benefit of the doubt; and also encourage him to return to the Lord?

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No one is discouraging him from doing so. But it is not beneficial to promise him something God does not.

What if your statements discourage him from even seeking; and if he had only sought the Lord, it would have been possible to return? His blood will be on your head if that discouragement is never overcome.

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Nonsense. Those who told him he was once saved always saved have his blood on their hands. Jesus let the 70 walk away. His words caused them to walk away. Is their blood on his hands?

justbyfaith said:

I've studied it thoroughly; and I have also won the debate (with the help of a few others) by bringing it into the middle in threads over 100 pages long.

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I did not notice for one and for two, your representation of the opposite view is plain wrong. You do not understand the position of those who do not agree with you on this matter.


Read the next verse. Also, we are to work out our salvation; not for it.

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What is practically the difference? I mean does one mean you need do nothing and the other mean you need to do everything?

Which is more important: being courteous or loving?

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Loving as Jesus was always loving at the expense of courteous if necessary.

my statements to him offer hope; while yours would seek to dash any hope he might have to pieces; or to keep it from ever developing. Hope even without faith has the power to save (Romans 8:24 (kjv)).

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I believe him. You do not believe him.

The Holy Spirit judged/condemned Ananias through Peter. And what happened? he died. Just goes to show that when someone truly crosses the line, they don't need to take another breath and probably won't (Genesis 6:3).

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Ah, that is not what happened. It was not the case that they did not NEED to take another breathe. They were not given the chance.

Invalidusername said:

Nobody warned me so I don't feel compelled to warn anyone else.

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You can do so but this is NOT the attitude that God will honor. If you want him to grant you repentance, you need to change this attitude. This attitude he will not touch.

HatGuy said:

I believe you can lose your salvation, but it's is incredibly difficult to do so, and salvation is only lost due to apostasy, not due to sin.

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I think God hates sin. The Bible says murderers etc will not enter Heaven so it looks like sin keeps out of heaven. I mean is God supposed to let rapists and thieves and so on into Heaven becaues they never committed apostasy?

Apostasy is not easy to do. Invalidusername is not showing signs of apostasy. Apostasy takes the form of violent behaviour against the faith, or a complete and deliberate, conscious and clear decision to write-off of faith altogether. It is a clear decision to disbelieve in Jesus, even when you know who He is and that His gospel is true.

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Read the list of those who are denied entry into Heaven. I am not sure that apostasy in on the list. I read that Jesus refused those who were assured they were going into Heaven because they did not have a relationship with him. He did not say because they had committed apostasy.

So I'm not OSAS, but neither do I buy this idea that God runs away from sin and cannot handle it.

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Without holiness shall no man see God. I mean what does that sound like? You ought not pin false views about God's character. No one says God runs away from sin. But um, he hates it. Those are not the same thing.

God's holiness is so good and so holy that it does not have to hide away from sin, but is able to pierce right through it.

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What kind of saying is this? Where is the scripture that says anything close to his. Where is GOd piercing through sin? Why would he do such a thing in any case? He pierces through our fog or deception but he does not need to pierce through sin and why would he do so. Yuck!

This idea that God hides his face from us when we sin is anti-gospel.

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"In overflowing anger for a moment I hid my face from you, but with everlasting love
I will have compassion on you,” says the LORD, your Redeemer. " The Bible disagrees with you. He hides his face from us when we sin.

The gospel preaches that he actually became sin for us on the cross in order to deal with it. He does not hide his face, rather he reveals it so that we would run to Him. At that point it's a matter of faith or not, and so faith is what salvation depends upon - continously.

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Please provide the scripture that says Jesus became sin.

Invalidusername said:

Her sin is pride. She seems to have an inflated sense of ego about her own goodness and self-righteousness and perhaps she has already fallen away and is not aware of it. I know I was not aware of it when I backslid.

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Ypu have obviously not repented of your deeds. If you want God to restore you, you will have to change your attitude. You cannot contine in this kind of attitude if you want God to answer your prayers. It does not matter how much you fast and pray with attitudes like this. Those who have repented are humble and consider others better than themselves instead of considering that the self is better than others.

Invalidusername said:

Cooperate with what? I don't think you understand. I have no conviction of anything.

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It would be good if you were convicted of saying untruths about people