Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

BCsenior · Nov 7, 2018

We’re not saved yet … for salvation is a process
“with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12).

Warnings about losing eternal life
••• Mark 9:43 “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell,
into the fire that shall never be quenched”
••• Luke 9:23-25 “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it (eternal life), but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost (eternally)?”
••• John 12:25 “He who loves his life will lose it (eternal life), and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.”
Also see Matthew 16:25-26 and Mark 8:35-37

Warnings about gaining eternal death
••• Romans 6:16-23 “… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death, or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness … For when you were slaves of sin … the end of those things is (eternal) death.
… For the wages of sin is (eternal) death …”
••• Romans 8:13-14 “For if you live according to the flesh you will die (spiritually); but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live (eternal life). For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
••• Galatians 6:7-8 “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.”
••• 1 Timothy 6:9-10 “But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into may foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil … Let them (rich Christians) do good, that they may be rich in good works … that they may lay hold on eternal life.”
••• Hebrews 10:36-39 “ ‘Now the just shall live by faith; but IF anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.’ But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”
••• James 1:12-16 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of (eternal) life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him … But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin,
when it is full-grown, brings forth (eternal) death.
Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.”
••• Revelation 2:11 “He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”
Who is an overcomer? >> “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” (Revelation 3:21)
••• Revelation 21:7-8 “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Jesus is talking about anyone who is a habitual (unrepentant) sinner!

Warnings about being shut out of heaven
Mark 9:47 with Matthew 25:34-46 prove
the kingdom of God is analogous to heaven.
••• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators,
nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,
nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous,
nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners
will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Galatians 5:19-21 and Ephesians 5:3-6 are other
“sin lists” about keeping people out of heaven.

Warnings being shut out of the New Jerusalem
••• Revelation 22:14-15 “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through
the gates of the city. But outside are the dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.”

Warnings in 3 of the many conditional “IF” verses
••• 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 “Moreover, brethren,
I declare to you the gospel … by which you are saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you - unless you believed in vain.”
••• 2 Corinthians 13:5 “Examine yourself to see
IF you are in the faith unless you are disqualified.”
••• Hebrews 3:14 “For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.”
Also see Hebrews 10:39 above.

Another excellent passage about gaining eternal death
is given in post #24.

redleghunter · Nov 7, 2018

So the Gospel is about loss and death?

bcbsr · Nov 7, 2018

BCsenior said:
We’re not saved yet … for salvation is a process

Here we go again. Once again in response to the salvation by works assumptions of many who post to these forums I would remind people that justification has been finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, which is why Jesus could say, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 and thus "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 In fact Paul could not have logically used the "have been saved" rhetoric, and neither can salvation by works Christians speak of "losing salvation", seeing as we're talking about having been saved from a future event, in salvation has not been finalized. The basic proposition of salvation by works theology is that faith in Christ only provides you with the OPPORTUNITY to be saved, if you live up to it the rest of your life.

As for verses which such people misconstrue to advocate their theology, most are talking about behavior being an indicator, and not a cause, of one's justification.

Those who have been born of God are incapable of living a sinful lifestyle and so lifestyle is an indicator of whether one has been saved. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10

As an example salvation by works Christians typically read verse 10 as saying that you have to do what is right and love your brother in order to be saved, rather than such behavior being indicative of those who have been saved.

Acts2:38 · Nov 7, 2018

redleghunter said:
So the Gospel is about loss and death?

Sarcasm aside, the books of the bible teach us many things.

1. How to become saved
2. How to stay saved
3. How to conduct ourselves as Christians toward brothers and sisters in Christ and worldly people

The warnings this OP stated prove to us that one can lose salvation should they stray off course in their Christian walk.

Acts2:38 · Nov 7, 2018

bcbsr said:
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 a

The Greek word for "believe" in Jhn 5:34 is Pisteuo, which is a verb friend. Action words mean that you have to do something. Conditions have to be met to obtain salvation and keep it. Revelation 2:10 for example,"faithful unto death" dictates (by law of exclusion) that one who doesnt remain faithful unto death, will lose salvation.

bcbsr said:
thus "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9

You forgot to look at verse 10, in which it also has a verb usage of words, meaning something must be done. Like a condition that has to be met.

bcbsr said:
. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10

Did you catch that part there that said, "anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God"

A person that profess christ and receives their salvation, should they one day 20 years down the road start sinning willfully and begin hating God, would indeed lose salvation. They wouldnt be a child of God regardless of the past 20 years that they loved doing the will of God.

bcbsr · Nov 7, 2018

Acts2:38 said:
The Greek word for "believe" in Jhn 5:34 is Pisteuo, which is a verb friend. Action words mean that you have to do something. Conditions have to be met to obtain salvation and keep it. Revelation 2:10 for example,"faithful unto death" dictates (by law of exclusion) that one who doesnt remain faithful unto death, will lose salvation.

The condition being faith in Christ, as Paul elaborates in Rom 4:4-6 "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works"

So if a person works in order to be saved, he's putting his faith in his works to save him and thus is disqualified from being saved.

And again as I pointed out, this phrase you salvation by works Christians use "lose salvation" is logically inconsistent with your theology, insomuch as you can't logically say a person has been saved to begin with from a future event if in the end they are not saved from that event. You can only logically say that no one is saved in this lifetime, but they have the possibility to be saved if they perform well enough.

Acts2:38 said:
You forgot to look at verse 10, in which it also has a verb usage of words, meaning something must be done. Like a condition that has to be met.

Nope, didn't forget to look at verse 10. Verse 10 is simply not relevant to getting saved to begin with as verse 9 clearly states that it's not by works. What you're actually telling people to do is to ignore verse 9 and misread verse 10.

In reality, as anyone should be able to plainly see, verse 10 is talking about having been saved by faith apart from works, the believer goes on to do works - not in order to be saved, as that was finalized with verses 8,9, but rather simply because we are God's workmanship at that point. I've notice salvation by works Christians typically append the end of verses with their phrase "in order to be saved". They're simply misreading scripture in order to impose their version of soteriology upon scripture, which is not actually there.

Acts2:38 said:
Did you catch that part there that said, "anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God"

There is a typical example of what I just said about salvation by works Christian. He ignores what I said and what John said about that very phrase and then implies the phrase should be appending with "in order to be saved".

Anyone who reads 1John 3:9,10 can clearly see that John says that those who have been born of God are incapable of continuing to sin because of their new nature, having been born of God. And then starts verse 10 with "this is how we know". The salvation by works Christians apparently ignore that phrase in their interpretation. 1John 3:10 is DIAGNOSTIC. Behavior is an indicator, not a cause of one's salvation. That's what John is talking about - IDENTIFYING - genuine children of God among the Christian community. That's what the whole theme of 1John is about. And why is it so? It's because of 1John 3:9 - the inevitable effect regeneration has on a person's behavior.

Acts2:38 said:
A person that profess christ and receives their salvation,

NOt according to your theology.

Acts2:38 said:
should they one day 20 years down the road start sinning willfully and begin hating God

Not possible if they had been born of God, as a result of being saved to begin with. (1John 5:1)
1John 3:9
1John 5:4
1John 5:18

BCsenior · Nov 7, 2018

bcbsr said:
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

For verses such as the one above to be reconciled
with the many dire warnings in the NT ...
we must come to this conclusion ...
that little word "believe" in our NTs
does NOT mean what most people think it means!
It must include all of the following:
true heart belief, strong faith, trust, and obedience!
This is True Saving Belief.

I.E. Those who truly believe on Jesus will obey Him.
.

Acts2:38 · Nov 7, 2018

bcbsr said:
The condition being faith in Christ, as Paul elaborates in Rom 4:4-6 "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works"

So if a person works in order to be saved, he's putting his faith in his works to save him and thus is disqualified from being saved.

And again as I pointed out, this phrase you salvation by works Christians use "lose salvation" is logically inconsistent with your theology, insomuch as you can't logically say a person has been saved to begin with from a future event if in the end they are not saved from that event. You can only logically say that no one is saved in this lifetime, but they have the possibility to be saved if they perform well enough.

Nope, didn't forget to look at verse 10. Verse 10 is simply not relevant to getting saved to begin with as verse 9 clearly states that it's not by works. What you're actually telling people to do is to ignore verse 9 and misread verse 10.

In reality, as anyone should be able to plainly see, verse 10 is talking about having been saved by faith apart from works, the believer goes on to do works - not in order to be saved, as that was finalized with verses 8,9, but rather simply because we are God's workmanship at that point. I've notice salvation by works Christians typically append the end of verses with their phrase "in order to be saved". They're simply misreading scripture in order to impose their version of soteriology upon scripture, which is not actually there.

There is a typical example of what I just said about salvation by works Christian. He ignores what I said and what John said about that very phrase and then implies the phrase should be appending with "in order to be saved".

Anyone who reads 1John 3:9,10 can clearly see that John says that those who have been born of God are incapable of continuing to sin because of their new nature, having been born of God. And then starts verse 10 with "this is how we know". The salvation by works Christians apparently ignore that phrase in their interpretation. 1John 3:10 is DIAGNOSTIC. Behavior is an indicator, not a cause of one's salvation. That's what John is talking about - IDENTIFYING - genuine children of God among the Christian community. That's what the whole theme of 1John is about. And why is it so? It's because of 1John 3:9 - the inevitable effect regeneration has on a person's behavior.

NOt according to your theology.

Not possible if they had been born of God, as a result of being saved to begin with. (1John 5:1)
1John 3:9
1John 5:4
1John 5:18

Just so we are on the same page, I am not talking about "earning" your way to haven by works (like a point system), I am talking about obedience to the gospel that justifies you by works.

Ephesians 2
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

How does one become "in Christ"?

And what is the "faith" talked about?

Galatians 3:26-27
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

James 2 says without being justified by work, faith alone is dead
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

That verse alone is pretty clear, basically a slap in ones face.

But if that wasnt enough, James 2 also refers to Hebrews 11
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Now see Hebrews 11.

This is the gospel 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

This is how you obey it Romans 6:3-5

That in itself is a work, of faith, in Christ Jesus. To not do those things, disqualifies you.

By the way, my intention of profess, is to believe confess, repent, be baptized and remain faithful. I suppose I should have elaborated that when I said profess.

bcbsr · Nov 7, 2018

BCsenior said:
For verses such as the one above to be reconciled
with the many dire warnings in the NT ...
we must come to this conclusion ...
that little word "believe" in our NTs
does NOT mean what most people think it means!
It must include all of the following:
true heart belief, strong faith, trust, and obedience!
This is True Saving Belief.

I.E. Those who truly believe on Jesus will obey Him.
.

But the fact that verses like John 5:24 speak of salvation having been finalized indicate that salvation is by faith apart from issues of one's ongoing performance. As I also pointed out concerning Paul's description of saving faith in Romans 4 "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." In fact the beginning of that chapter gives Abraham as an example in Ex 15:5 he was given a promise and then in Ex 15:6 he was declared justified in the same sense as believers are today, there being no intervening work on Abraham's part between the two verses, therefore Paul uses this fact as proof that Abraham was justified by faith apart from doing anything. Faith is trusting in Christ to save you.

This in contrast to the salvation by works theory, which proposes that you're saved by faith, but your faith is not in Christ but rather in your own performance to save you. For if salvation is conditioned upon one's performance, as it is in the case of justification by law, then you're putting your faith in your own performance to save you.

bcbsr · Nov 7, 2018

Acts2:38 said:
Just so we are on the same page, I am not talking about "earning" your way to haven by works (like a point system), I am talking about obedience to the gospel that justifies you by works.

Same thing. You're saying you earn your right to be qualified to be saved by your works. Anyone can see that.

Acts2:38 said:
How does one become "in Christ"?

Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance'

Acts2:38 said:
And what is the "faith" talked about?

Trusting in Christ rather trusting in other things, like one's works.

Acts2:38 said:
James 2 says without being justified by work, faith alone is dead
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Yet Paul says, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" Rom 4:4-6 Maybe you need to read James in light of Paul.

Those verses along are pretty clear, basically a slap in ones face.

Acts2:38 said:
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Actually in the beginning of Romans 4 Paul indicated that Abraham was already justified over a decade prior to that event - and that he was justified by faith apart from works.

Acts2:38 said:
This is how you obey it Romans 6:3-5
That in itself is a work, of faith, in Christ Jesus. To not do those things, disqualifies you.

What work? Oh, you have the misconception that "baptism into Christ" is the religious ceremony of water baptism, and that salvation is a function of one's involvement in religious rituals, like the Circumcision group proposed. It doesn't say baptism into water. It says baptized into Christ and baptized into his death. No mention of water. "baptize" literally means to immerse one thing into another thing. Water doesn't need to be involved.

But as you use the rhetoric as you do - claiming you have to do things - do works to be saved, let me say that, All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

And that's what you're proposing - you live by doing these things rather than living by faith. As you can see from that passage and the Romans 4 passage, saving faith is not about doing things. It's about trusting.

As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Rom 10:11

redleghunter · Nov 7, 2018

bcbsr said:
As an example salvation by works Christians typically read verse 10 as saying that you have to do what is right and love your brother in order to be saved, rather than such behavior being indicative of those who have been saved.

Well said. That's the bottom line truth.

redleghunter · Nov 7, 2018

Acts2:38 said:
Sarcasm aside, the books of the bible teach us many things.

1. How to become saved
2. How to stay saved
3. How to conduct ourselves as Christians toward brothers and sisters in Christ and worldly people

The warnings this OP stated prove to us that one can lose salvation should they stray off course in their Christian walk.

Not sarcasm. The OP has created his own anti-Good News.

Can you point me to the verse where it says one loses the Justification which comes from God? For example the reverse Romans 3-5. Don't lose sleep there is no such dissertation by an Apostle.

The warnings of the OP is a classic example of eisegesis. Come up with a concept, hunt for verses, tear out of context and make a new anti_Gospel. The Roman Catholics are very good at taking their later traditions and hunting for Bible verses to 'prove' them.

This OP is no different than what they do, or the Mormons or the JWs or even the atheists who love to pluck verses into a collage to show us the "Bible is full of contradictions."

Why bother playing the eisegesis game? I have loads of verses too which show we are sealed and will never perish and never lose what God has given us. What purpose would that serve? That is just pitting the Bible against itself which is what Satan did in the Garden to Eve and what he attempted to do with Christ in Matthew 4 and Luke 4. I'm quite sick at people trashing the Scriptures, the Word of God like this on a Christian site. Get some "Losing my religion" systematic theology first instead of peddling verses across the spectrum of the Bible which the soul sleepers and Arians love to do too.

Finally, these are the wisest words I've seen on this site in some time:

bcbsr said:
As an example salvation by works Christians typically read verse 10 as saying that you have to do what is right and love your brother in order to be saved, rather than such behavior being indicative of those who have been saved.

It would do many well here to read and understand what he is pointing out. He did not spell it out, but the above shows the difference between a salvation wrought by man and one wrought Eternally by God.

mark kennedy · Nov 7, 2018

bcbsr said:
The condition being faith in Christ, as Paul elaborates in Rom 4:4-6 "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works"

So if a person works in order to be saved, he's putting his faith in his works to save him and thus is disqualified from being saved.

And again as I pointed out, this phrase you salvation by works Christians use "lose salvation" is logically inconsistent with your theology, insomuch as you can't logically say a person has been saved to begin with from a future event if in the end they are not saved from that event. You can only logically say that no one is saved in this lifetime, but they have the possibility to be saved if they perform well enough.

Nope, didn't forget to look at verse 10. Verse 10 is simply not relevant to getting saved to begin with as verse 9 clearly states that it's not by works. What you're actually telling people to do is to ignore verse 9 and misread verse 10.

In reality, as anyone should be able to plainly see, verse 10 is talking about having been saved by faith apart from works, the believer goes on to do works - not in order to be saved, as that was finalized with verses 8,9, but rather simply because we are God's workmanship at that point. I've notice salvation by works Christians typically append the end of verses with their phrase "in order to be saved". They're simply misreading scripture in order to impose their version of soteriology upon scripture, which is not actually there.

There is a typical example of what I just said about salvation by works Christian. He ignores what I said and what John said about that very phrase and then implies the phrase should be appending with "in order to be saved".

Anyone who reads 1John 3:9,10 can clearly see that John says that those who have been born of God are incapable of continuing to sin because of their new nature, having been born of God. And then starts verse 10 with "this is how we know". The salvation by works Christians apparently ignore that phrase in their interpretation. 1John 3:10 is DIAGNOSTIC. Behavior is an indicator, not a cause of one's salvation. That's what John is talking about - IDENTIFYING - genuine children of God among the Christian community. That's what the whole theme of 1John is about. And why is it so? It's because of 1John 3:9 - the inevitable effect regeneration has on a person's behavior.

NOt according to your theology.

Not possible if they had been born of God, as a result of being saved to begin with. (1John 5:1)
1John 3:9
1John 5:4
1John 5:18

John also sats if we do sin we have Jesus as our advocate. (1 John 2:1) he also says if we say we have no sin we decieve iurselves 1 John 1:8

bcbsr · Nov 7, 2018

mark kennedy said:
John also sats if we do sin we have Jesus as our advocate. (1 John 2:1) he also says if we say we have no sin we decieve iurselves 1 John 1:8

While 1John 3:9 uses the Greek present tense which references one's lifestyle, claiming that those born of God have lost the ability to life a sinful lifestyle, the two cases of "sin" in 1John 2 are not in the present tense, but the aorist tense, which refers to events rather than lifestyle, uncharacteristic events.

1John 3:9 does not deny that those born of God won't sin from time to time in the aorist sense, which doesn't contradict 1John 1:8 nor 1John 2:1. 1John 3:9 is not talking about sinless perfection. It's only referring to one's lifestyle, and not to events uncharacteristic of the person.

I've done a thorough study on all the verses in 1John along these lines which you should feel free to peruse. 1John Sunday School Class Lessons

redleghunter · Nov 7, 2018

Acts2:38 said:
The Greek word for "believe" in Jhn 5:34 is Pisteuo, which is a verb friend. Action words mean that you have to do something.

Yes believe.

mark kennedy · Nov 8, 2018

bcbsr said:
While 1John 3:9 uses the Greek present tense which references one's lifestyle, claiming that those born of God have lost the ability to life a sinful lifestyle, the two cases of "sin" in 1John 2 are not in the present tense, but the aorist tense, which refers to events rather than lifestyle, uncharacteristic events.

1John 3:9 does not deny that those born of God won't sin from time to time in the aorist sense, which doesn't contradict 1John 1:8 nor 1John 2:1. 1John 3:9 is not talking about sinless perfection. It's only referring to one's lifestyle, and not to events uncharacteristic of the person.

I've done a thorough study on all the verses in 1John along these lines which you should feel free to peruse. 1John Sunday School Class Lessons

1 john is an excellent primer for New Testament theology, just at a glace the link looks pretty solid. The reason a person who is born again cannot sin is because the new nature is the righteousness of God in Christ 1 John 3:9. That seed is sown in various soils according to Jesus parable of the sower. I would agree that it is possible to lose salvation if it's possible for that seed, the word of God, to be quenched in the heart of the believer. I further maintain that you are not saved until the Holy Spirit tells you you are Romans 8:16, then it's eternal security which is synonomous with eternal life. It is always by grace through faith, the works of righteousness that folliw are not required for salvation, they are salvation.

Acts2:38 · Nov 8, 2018

bcbsr said:
Same thing. You're saying you earn your right to be qualified to be saved by your works. Anyone can see that.

Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance'

Trusting in Christ rather trusting in other things, like one's works.

Yet Paul says, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" Rom 4:4-6 Maybe you need to read James in light of Paul.

Those verses along are pretty clear, basically a slap in ones face.

Actually in the beginning of Romans 4 Paul indicated that Abraham was already justified over a decade prior to that event - and that he was justified by faith apart from works.

What work? Oh, you have the misconception that "baptism into Christ" is the religious ceremony of water baptism, and that salvation is a function of one's involvement in religious rituals, like the Circumcision group proposed. It doesn't say baptism into water. It says baptized into Christ and baptized into his death. No mention of water. "baptize" literally means to immerse one thing into another thing. Water doesn't need to be involved.

But as you use the rhetoric as you do - claiming you have to do things - do works to be saved, let me say that, All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

And that's what you're proposing - you live by doing these things rather than living by faith. As you can see from that passage and the Romans 4 passage, saving faith is not about doing things. It's about trusting.

As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Rom 10:11

Well, all I can do is show you scripture, so I have done my part.

The fact of the matter is, you are contradicting what James says, especially in light that James connects Hebrews 11 (the faith chapter) and literally states works (obedience to the gospel commands) and faith combined.

I don't discount Paul's writings either since Paul plainly said that those IN Christ are saved. The only way you are IN Christ is by doing what Galatians 3:26-27 states.

"Its as plain as day" the saying goes.

Peter also contends the same thing Gal3:27 states, when he wrote 1 Peter 3:18-21.

Yet again, Paul (your favorite person to quote to defend false doctrine) yes, your very own dear Paul (great guy by the way), also wrote

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 that tells us WHAT the gospel is, and also wrote Romans 6:3-5 that enlightens us on how the gospel is obeyed.

But, all I can do is let you know faith only is wrong.

Just some insider information here. Denominations love to use John 3:16. Little do they know, there is a condition set withing that verse.

The "whosoever believeth" part, thats a verb. Its not the English word believe, it is the Greek word believe. It means you have to do something.

James 1
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

bcbsr · Nov 8, 2018

mark kennedy said:
1 john is an excellent primer for New Testament theology, just at a glace the link looks pretty solid. The reason a person who is born again cannot sin is because the new nature is the righteousness of God in Christ 1 John 3:9. That seed is sown in various soils according to Jesus parable of the sower. I would agree that it is possible to lose salvation if it's possible for that seed, the word of God, to be quenched in the heart of the believer. I further maintain that you are not saved until the Holy Spirit tells you you are Romans 8:16, then it's eternal security which is synonomous with eternal life. It is always by grace through faith, the works of righteousness that folliw are not required for salvation, they are salvation.

But where does "born of God" occur in that scenario. Since those born of God are incapable of living in sin therefore they are incapable of falling away from the faith, a fact of which John utilizes to distinguish whether certain people are in the faith.

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

A person is born of God, and therefore eternally secure, when they come to faith in Christ.

"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" 1John 5:1

However, given the seed that fell on rocky ground, I take it that "belief" here is a conviction, and not a shallow belief as many have. Many claim to believe the gospel, but their belief is shallow, and doesn't qualify as salvific faith. Others claim to believe the gospel, but in fact they belief a different gospel, such as the salvation by works Christians, again not qualified.

But coming to saving faith, and subsequently born of God, one will naturally overcome the world. "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world——our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" 1John 5:4,5

Acts2:38 · Nov 8, 2018

redleghunter said:
Not sarcasm. The OP has created his own anti-Good News.

Can you point me to the verse where it says one loses the Justification which comes from God? For example the reverse Romans 3-5. Don't lose sleep there is no such dissertation by an Apostle.

The warnings of the OP is a classic example of eisegesis. Come up with a concept, hunt for verses, tear out of context and make a new anti_Gospel. The Roman Catholics are very good at taking their later traditions and hunting for Bible verses to 'prove' them.

This OP is no different than what they do, or the Mormons or the JWs or even the atheists who love to pluck verses into a collage to show us the "Bible is full of contradictions."

Why bother playing the eisegesis game? I have loads of verses too which show we are sealed and will never perish and never lose what God has given us. What purpose would that serve? That is just pitting the Bible against itself which is what Satan did in the Garden to Eve and what he attempted to do with Christ in Matthew 4 and Luke 4. I'm quite sick at people trashing the Scriptures, the Word of God like this on a Christian site. Get some "Losing my religion" systematic theology first instead of peddling verses across the spectrum of the Bible which the soul sleepers and Arians love to do too.

Finally, these are the wisest words I've seen on this site in some time:

It would do many well here to read and understand what he is pointing out. He did not spell it out, but the above shows the difference between a salvation wrought by man and one wrought Eternally by God.

Well, for this seemingly smug piece of writing, I have one piece of scripture. It is all I need, though, I do have others.

Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I mean, really, who's kidding themselves here?

redleghunter said:
Yes believe.

You do know this is coming from the Koine Greek language right?

Not the English dictionary term believe, the Greek.

It is a verb. In case people do not know what a verb is, it is an action word, meaning you have to do something, something is being done, or needs to be done.

bcbsr · Nov 8, 2018

Acts2:38 said:
The only way you are IN Christ is by doing what Galatians 3:26-27 states.

Yep, faith in Christ, and subsequently being born of God by God immersing us into Christ. I agree.

Acts2:38 said:
Peter also contends the same thing Gal3:27 states, when he wrote 1 Peter 3:18-21.

Yep, being immersed into Christ, represented by the ark, and saved from the wrath of God, represented by the flood waters. That's is what happens when a person receives Christ. I agree.

Oh! We're you under the misconception that they were referring to the religious ritual of water baptism?

Acts2:38 said:
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 that tells us WHAT the gospel is, and also wrote Romans 6:3-5 that enlightens us on how the gospel is obeyed.

Nothing about water baptism there! I agree with Paul. I agree that saving faith is that of a conviction (taking a stand) that salvation is by faith in Christ apart from works. That in contrast to the gospel of the salvation by works Christians who put their faith in their works to save them.

The scriptures are clear on these points, but all I can do is let you know faith in works is wrong.

Acts2:38 said:
Just some insider information here. Denominations love to use John 3:16. Little do they know, there is a condition set withing that verse. The "whosoever believeth" part, thats a verb. Its not the English word believe, it is the Greek word believe. It means you have to do something.

The thing you "do" is trust in the Christ. That's what you do. Oh! Are you under the misconception that "faith" means you put your trust in your own performance, your works, to save you?

"to the man who does not work but trusts ("πιστευοντι") God who justifies the wicked, his faith ("πιστις") is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5

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